Info Yaz Mansour and the dead Boa

[Yaz23]

Im going to bed, good night everyone.

 

[TropicalSerpent]

Ok, So I am not going to side with anyone however the death of the boa is clear in the picture's and this is is how it goes, The snake had Upper Resp before it arrived to the buyer, that is clear, Now so we are going to speed up a bit where the serpent was in the cage, as you can clearly see the blood in the gum line of the serpent's mouth of the snake, This is why? It is simple the snake was in a heated (heated to hot I am not sure) cage, Now since the serpent is in the heated cage with upper resp it gets harder to breathe, so lets look into the picture here guys, If this shot was taken and the snake wasn't touched you can clearly see it has/was flipping its self over to get air. The mucus was blocking the airways and to get oxygen into the lungs therefore the blood gets thicker (Common Science), the snake was struggling to get air with all of the Mucus in it, Now so lets look at the pic where the snake was alive the mucus is heavy as you can tell it is in the upper part of the body (some serpents will defecate mucus in their feces) so the mucus was in the upper part now with personal previous times, If you heat up a snake with heavy Upper resp it comes out or it can drown in its own mucus, Now With both parties being good guys (which is rare) Its just a thing that happens however Yaz may have had the snake warm enough to slowly come out, But UPS shipping it with Climate weather it drops the temps that means that more mucus has infested/built up from the time, and it don't take long for it, Snakes will flip every way to try to get air which is what this snake did and had the unfortunate side of the coin and died from it, Thanks Jeremy Parker

 

[Gecko_Den]

Konstantin, we agreed to $250 + shipping. I told him $390 shipped because when I calculated the shipping cost it was $140, which when it was actually shipped it was $134. The box, container, and paypal fees I just deducted from the total amount that I can see would be on my end which is fine.

Really? "The box, container, and paypal fees", are part of the cost of doing business and should be factored into the purchase price before you ever place an ad. Not to mention it's against PayPal TOS to charge the customer for the PayPal fees; somehow though I don't think Terms of Service mean much to you...

 

[CarolinaClassicDragons]

What I find ironic is you take his word I agreed to pay those refunds every time he asked? I DIDNT AGREE TO I told him I wanted proof how he died then I would issue a refund. He gave me time limits of when I needed to send him a refund. So stop accusing me of this .

I told him I'd give him a refund AFTER I saw the reports. That is not unreasonable of me at all. HE DEMANDED REFUNDS NOW. He was telling me to issue him a refund before I even saw pics. Once I saw those he was telling me to issue a refund before I even knew the cause of death. Honestly, if a boa was shipped out healthy to your knowledge and appeared perfectly healthy. It arrived perfectly healthy. Then didnt hear from the buyer for 2 1/2 days and then get a call that its sick and died. WOULDNT YOU WANT SOME PROOF PRIOR TO SENDING A REFUND???

Yaz, Yaz, Yaz...cmon now. You know you agreed on Friday to send the $300 and then pulled back asking for proof. Then again on Saturday afternoon, you and I talked it out and you said I will have the $250 to you by 11:00. Once again, you back out asking for proof. Its almost like I am now dealing with a completely different person. Are you now publicly saying you didnt tell me you would pay me those amounts at those times??

What every potential buyer should now be paying attention to is here is a guy that on Friday around 12:00 when I called him to tell him the snake had died, didnt think I should spend more money on a necropsy which is the same necropsy report he is now waiting on until he will pay me. What if I listenened to him and didnt get the necropsy done??? 2 attending DVM's tell me Friday afternoon their findings of the physical exam and he doesnt want to believe it? He wants it in writing.

I can tell you Yaz, this $223 number you have come up with is something you came up with and its not going to work with me. You had your chance, you made your bed, now you are going to have to sleep in it.

 

[Yaz23]

Sam, so the many people who put "Add 3% for paypal" in their for sale ads is wrong then I assume? I dont do that, I normally just factor it into the sale price when I post my ad. From the paypal fee, box etc. I thought it was only going to be around $20 which it was. Im confused what your meaning. When I think about ANY of my sale prices, I always roughly estimate the charges to see what I'd be left with. When I factored in everything from this deal and the price I told David, I assumed I would be getting around $225-$240 which I was fine with.

David, you know what, thats fine. I will gladly just wait now to see the outcome from the report.

I still suspect the boa died from too much heat and suffocated like I stated many times. I believe Jeremy had a good point with the boa struggled for air and rolled. I will like to see the report on how he died. Heat and suffocation is still what I think. Therefore, if that is the case, this is not on me, but will still give you partial refund because this sucks for the both of us. I will be waiting for your conference call witht he DVMs today.

 

[Yaz23]

Sam, you say Terms Of Sale dont mean much to me?

I gurantee only live arrival, you want me to stick with my TOS? I dont need to give David a penny. He arrived safe and alive, and no issues from Tuesday 9:15am - Thursday 3:45pm. So I could say "tough luck" about this whole situation if I STICK TO MY TOS. I am not going to do that, this is a junky situation, so I am fine with refunding money. Why would you say "I don't think Terms of Service mean much to you... " I am bending out of the TOS to give David a refund. Some people wouldnt do anything in this case and just say oh well to the buyer. Its happened to me. Did I like it? NO. That is wrong and will not be like that with me.

 

[Shadera]

Sam, you say Terms Of Sale dont mean much to me?

I gurantee only live arrival, you want me to stick with my TOS? I dont need to give David a penny. He arrived safe and alive, and no issues from Tuesday 9:15am - Thursday 3:45pm. So I could say "tough luck" about this whole situation if I STICK TO MY TOS. I am not going to do that, this is a junky situation, so I am fine with refunding money. Why would you say "I don't think Terms of Service mean much to you... " I am bending out of the TOS to give David a refund. Some people wouldnt do anything in this case and just say oh well to the buyer. Its happened to me. Did I like it? NO. That is wrong and will not be like that with me.

No health guarantee?

 

[CarolinaClassicDragons]

I have been talking to Yaz, and he and David will be talking tomorrow to get a resolution acceptable to both parties.

I just read this post from Dean after I typed the last message. I wish I would have read it before. Maybe there will finally be resolution to this.

You know Yaz..... you and I talked a lot. Unfortunately, no one else was on the line to hear it. You had plenty of chances to resolve this before this got permanently placed here on the BOI. You know it, I know it. You even said Saturday night in an email to go ahead and take it public and see what everybody else thinks. Well, you have now heard what everyone else thinks.

No more conversations unless you can get a neutral, third party on the line to hear everything. If Dean would do it, I am fine with that. I only know of him from Fauna and I dont think you are any closer to him than I am. You have my cell phone number and I should be available after 11:00 or so.

 

[Yaz23]

I want to point out in this real quick that some sellers dont even offer Live Arrival Gurantee, so you buy an animal and it arrives dead. The seller could simply say "tough luck". I gurantee live arrival and stated he was healthy in my ad. Therefore he should arrive alive and healthy. My boa ARRIVED ALIVE and HEALTHY. TO DAVIDS KNOWLEDGE HE WAS HEALTHY FOR 2 1/2 DAYS. So honestly this isnt on me if you want to pinpoint TOS for my ad. If he arrived alive but had mucus coming from his mouth upon arrival that would be a whole different story. Even the same day if that happened that would be a different situation, BUT this was 2 1/2 days later. He easily could have died from something else. Heat and suffocation from that cage.

Considering he died Friday, and appeared healthy to David for 2 1/2 days, this is beyond TOS and on top of that this boa may have died from over amount of heat in that damn cage causing him to suffocate like I have been saying this whole time and before this BOI thread even posted. So in all honesty pnuemonia wasnt the cause of death then. The stress of shipping may have brought out a sickness (which he didnt appear sick at all when I had him, when he ARRIVED, and for 2 1/2 days AFTER ARRIVAL), and then died because the cage was so hot so he suffocated. Pneumonia didnt cause him to die, the heat in the cage did, which would result in no refund that was Davids part not mine. Am I going to be a about it and not give him anything? No, he will get a partial refund.

 

[Yaz23]

I thought you were going to call me once you have the DVMs on the line? I will be waiting for the conference call to hear all this about the necropsy. From there we will discuss refunds and/or wait for the report to come in.

 

[Skiploder]

Craig, he may not have known that the animal was physically sick. This could have been taken care of without admitting that he knew that it was. Davids whole point wasnt whether Yaz knowingly sent him a sick snake but more of the fact that it died within 4 days.

Personally, I think the necropsy report will be very interesting to say the least. I have never had a snake with pnuemonia but have had one with an RI. I would imagine that the signs of a snake with pnuemonia would be similiar to one with an RI. Wouldnt the signs be totally visible to someone who had the snake more than just 3 days?

I think David has been totally fair in this transaction and should be compensated for his expenses should this come out as a problem PRIOR to shipping. I guess we will all soon find out.

Dean - agreed.

I don't think for an instant that Yaz knowingly sold a sick animal to David.

While I understand his confusion as to why a seemingly healthy animal would die so suddenly, at a certain point casting aspersions to everything David says is uncalled for. It also hurts his reputation.

It's not an uncommon occurance to have the stress of the shipping process bring out some latent nasties in reptiles. Let's see the necropsy and hopefully these two can work out a mutually agreeable resolution.

 

[CarolinaClassicDragons]

I want to point out in this real quick that some sellers dont even offer Live Arrival Gurantee, so you buy an animal and it arrives dead. The seller could simply say "tough luck". I gurantee live arrival and stated he was healthy in my ad. Therefore he should arrive alive and healthy. My boa ARRIVED ALIVE and HEALTHY. TO DAVIDS KNOWLEDGE HE WAS HEALTHY FOR 2 1/2 DAYS. So honestly this isnt on me if you want to pinpoint TOS for my ad. If he arrived alive but had mucus coming from his mouth upon arrival that would be a whole different story. Even the same day if that happened that would be a different situation, BUT this was 2 1/2 days later. He easily could have died from something else. Heat and suffocation from that cage.

Considering he died Friday, and appeared healthy to David for 2 1/2 days, this is beyond TOS and on top of that this boa may have died from over amount of heat in that damn cage causing him to suffocate like I have been saying this whole time and before this BOI thread even posted. So in all honesty pnuemonia wasnt the cause of death then. The stress of shipping may have brought out a sickness (which he didnt appear sick at all when I had him, when he ARRIVED, and for 2 1/2 days AFTER ARRIVAL), and then died because the cage was so hot so he suffocated. Pneumonia didnt cause him to die, the heat in the cage did, which would result in no refund that was Davids part not mine. Am I going to be a about it and not give him anything? No, he will get a partial refund.

Yaz, the boa didnt arrive live and HEALTHY as you state. So now a cage that is 88ish at one end and 80ish at the other killed the snake huh? Exactly where should this snake have been placed and at what temp.? Enough with the heat and suffocation nonsense. Had the snake's system not been full of mucous, he would be living happily out there in cage right next to my big female boa who lives in the same exact conditions.

I have said before, I dont think you knew the snake was sick! I think the stress from the shipment brought it out in him. Why do you keep trying to discredit me? My patience is wearing thin.

I think most of us have learned a lot from this whole experience. I know I have. Just because a snake APPEARS healthy it doesnt mean a whole lot. But there are still unaswered questions and I dont think there are easy answers out there. What would I have done differently before the purchase? What could Yaz have done differently?

I just received an email from the DVM that performed the necropsy and as you can see, all of the information is not in yet.

Dave I have not yet written the history and gross exam part of the report and I will not write a preliminary diagnosis yet until more information is in. Until we look at the lung under the microscope I can not tell how long the pneumonia was there nor can I tell if there any other underlying disease

More to come as I get it but it looks like it will take a few days. I am trying to get whatever they will give me this afternoon but I cant promise anything.

 

[Skiploder]

If I shipped out a snake and it died within a YEAR and they could prove that it had the condition before I sent it, I would issue a refund.

In January I purchased a "proven" adult snake from a known "Good Guy" on the BOI.

Four weeks after she was sent to me, I noticed a pencil-eraser sized lump near her tail. I took her to my vet who did a biopsy - malignant.

While I paid good money to have that bump removed, I was certain that the seller knew nothing about that bump and thus I never contacted him about it. However, 3 weeks later (that's almost two months after the transaction) he e-mailed me to ask how she was doing.

When I told him about the operation and sent him some pictures of the lump (I had e-mailed them to my vet when I first discovered it), he expressed his apologies and swore he had never noticed it. He asked how much it set me back and if she was expected to recover.

He offered, without receipts and without the pathology report, to cover the cost of the operation, arguing that if he had noticed it, he would have had to absorb those costs anyway. I declined.

His TOS sure as hell didn't cover four weeks or seven.

The true essence of a "Good Guy" goes well beyond the sale and the quality of the animal. A "Good Guy" also steps up and does the right thing when the situation merits.

 

[Yaz23]

When I knew the boa was sick, and David mentioned that he made an appointment at the vet for Friday, I told him to call me once he went to the vet and I'd compensate him for vet fee. Now that the snake is dead, its a different story. I now have to look at how the hell did he die.

I am not trying to accuse that David killed the snake at all, I am saying perhaps the cage was too hot for him or something happened that made the cage get to hot and he suffocated. I would just like to see the results thats it.

 

[Yaz23]

Dave, from your quote above that someone else just brought up: you said "Originally Posted by DaveyFig, If I shipped out a snake and it died within a YEAR and they could prove that it had the condition before I sent it, I would issue a refund."

The key word you used there is 'PROVE that it had the condition before I sent it'. I have not been proven that that he died from something prior to me shipping. He could have died from many things. Everyone is skipping the fact that THE BOA WAS THERE AND HEALTHY FOR 2 1/2 DAYS. Then all of a sudden he had mucus and within 12 hours later after seeing the mucus for the first time he dies. The time frame is off for that to happen. Something during that 12 hours killed him pretty instantly. I really want to see that report.

 

[srsb]

Yaz, this is the first time I have ever posted in a thread like this, and I know neither you nor the buyer. But, you keep grasping at straws, throwing accusations at the buyer hoping one of your "theories" will stick. You are not doing your reputation ANY favors here. The true measure of a "good guy" is how he handles himself when a problem arises.

But, you have repeatedly stated "THE BOA WAS THERE AND HEALTHY FOR 2 1/2 DAYS" and then just dropped dead in a 12 hour time span. You are mistaken.

The buyer states in his first post that there was "slime" on the snake's mouth noticed almost immediately when soaking the snake after arrival. The next morning he noticed wheezing. Thursday he noticed mucus and made a vet appointment.

It is clear that the snake was not THERE AND HEALTHY FOR 2 1/2 DAYS. The snake arrived sick.

 

[Yaz23]

If he arrived sick why did I hear about how great and healthy he was? From what I can tell he arrived perfect. If all that weezing and mucus happened the same day after arrival and also on Wednesday then why was none of that brought to my attention until late Thursday??? Dont take words and make them into facts, they are not. The FACTS are, he arrived FINE to someone in the herp hobby that has been around for awhile. If he arrived sick, I'm sure David would have noticed and contacted me. I NEVER HEARD ANYTHING until late Thursday. So I have the right to wonder what happened.

These things should be immediately said to the seller, but nothing was until late Thursday then I got a call Friday morning that the boa was found dead. I have a right to find out why he died before I issue a refund.

I am not trying to say theories and one of them stick. I told him before this BOI thread even started about the cage may have been too hot and he suffocated. I have said throughout this thread so I am not saying random things and hoping something sticks. That is my concluision and theory to why he died.

 

[jim1970]

how about the other snakes he has sold and have been exposed to this. the people that have them should be told also. thats just my 2 cents.

 

[Yaz23]

If you sold a snake to someone, and upon arrival they praised you for how awesome and great the snake was, then you didnt hear from them for 2 1/2 days, wouldnt you assume that the snake was fine with no problems? YES.

Then you get a call late Thursday saying the snake had a lot of mucus from the mouth and then in the morning the following day you get a call that it died.

I think ANYONE would wonder what the hell happened knowing that you sent a healthy animal (or if you want to be nit-picky, an animal that you had for 2 years and never had a problem with) all of a sudden die.

 

[Yaz23]

I will say this again, ALL IM WANTING is to see how he died. I am not arguing to not refund him. He will get some type of refund but before I issue a refund or the amount of the refund I want to see how he died to make sure that it was prior to shipping or not.