about siklback and their husbandry

[Denisebme]

I should also add, for those unfamiliar with the term:
slan·der /ˈslændər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[slan-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
3. Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
–verb (used with object)
4. to utter slander against; defame.
–verb (used without object)
5. to utter or circulate slander.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Considering Denise's desire to help the bearded community out - her responses on bd.org in response to Tammy when the doctors in Florida were asking for the information she had to offer concerning where her tests were done... seemed just as suspicious as Chasity.



Here's a link to the whole thread that this took place in...
http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/viewtopic.php?t=50448&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

and it also says that people should be honest about the dragons that are positive for adeno. and that big breeders should test for it.

Hmm, the majority of people feel it should be done, but yet. its not? why is that?

 

[Seamus Haley]

I should also add, for those unfamiliar with the term:
slan·der /ˈslændər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[slan-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
3. Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
–verb (used with object)
4. to utter slander against; defame.
–verb (used without object)
5. to utter or circulate slander.

Recheck point three.

Then, for those unfamiliar with the term, look up libel.

 

[Denisebme]

Considering Denise's desire to help the bearded community out - her responses on bd.org in response to Tammy when the doctors in Florida were asking for the information she had to offer concerning where her tests were done... seemed just as suspicious as Chasity.



Here's a link to the whole thread that this took place in...
http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/viewtopic.php?t=50448&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Oh yeah, I sure look like I was hiding right? My phone number is on my website, I have never concealed any personal information that would make it hard for anyone to contact me, and I'm still waiting for his call, all this time later.
A lot of things "seemed" to be the case over that long, long weekend. That's what happens when people start talking behind the scenes about people they don't know, things easily get blown way out of proportion.
Funny thing is, if the shoe had been on the other foot, and it was one of the "little guys" that had gone after you and pulled a lot of other people into it, we would have been chased off of Fauna with pitchforks or pounded into oblivion.

 

[Denisebme]

Recheck point three.

Then, for those unfamiliar with the term, look up libel.

That was going to be my next post

 

[mikey]

Straight up? You're joking, right?

No, I was not joking. I was looking for a simple yes or no answer. Post a receipt, then this can get put to rest for good.

 

[whiskersmom]

Again, what does all of this have to do with purposely creating reptiles that have scales, into reptiles that no longer have scales?

Wasn't this posted by you, Vickie?

California Avian Laboratory spoke with my veterinarian this afternoon and he has confirmed that they can accept samples of blood and cloacal swabs for submission to another lab for PCR sequencing for the adenovirus in bearded dragons.

And that was back when you were saying that there were only two ways to check for adeno (on live animals and other then biopsy) EM and PCR thru the state of Florida, right? You accused her of lying and you want to do it again after you admit yourself, that you were wrong??? Don't you ever learn?

Yes, I do believe the correct word for this is Diversion.

 

[Denisebme]

No, I was not joking. I was looking for a simple yes or no answer. Post a receipt, then this can get put to rest for good.

You mean "post a receipt" so people can harass the right vet this time? Why don't y'all just do me a favor and tell me how many times she's going to get called, so I can clear it with her first. Believe it or not, her office has better things to do than deal with phone calls from people asking questions that she can not even legally answer.

 

[whiskersmom]

You mean "post a receipt" so people can harass the right vet this time? Why don't y'all just do me a favor and tell me how many times she's going to get called, so I can clear it with her first. Believe it or not, her office has better things to do than deal with phone calls from people asking questions that she can not even legally answer.

This is so ridiculous....how can you people start harrassing this woman again? You honestly can't stand the thought that there are bearded dragons in the world that is AV negative....that would make your jobs as breeders so much easier if you could prove her a liar....just think about it....then you could say unchallenged that they all have it, therefore you don't have to test. And you can also tell all your potential customers that this is just something all beardies have, kind of like kidneys or a liver!!! But you can't do that when over there in California there's a breeder who's had her's tested and they came back negative....so what's the plan now? I know, I know, discredit her. Make her look like she's a liar and a sneak. We can also harrass her vet and maybe even her priest.....who else, who's got her momma's phone number, anybody? I'm ashamed to say that I belong to this community if this is how you people are going to act.
Denise, we all know they're dealing in smoke screens and we know what you're all about and that's all that matters.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING? The question at hand is naked beardies and why are they naked and will the people stripping them of their scales, kindly quit.

 

[mikey]

Again, what does all of this have to do with purposely creating reptiles that have scales, into reptiles that no longer have scales?


Yes, I do believe the correct word for this is Diversion.

Further, although I agree that Adenovirus should be a separate issue, in this case, the issue does come into play. You've got an animal that obviously has at least one genetic defect, and you send it into a facility that admittedly has Adenovirus positive animals. Since that particular facility has made it clear that they have no intention of testing to know which animals do or do not have Adenovirus, the potential exists that this genetically flawed animal will come into contact with Adenovirus positive animals, particularly given the lines that are to said to be planned for crossing with the genetically flawed mutant, therefore creating an even weaker animal.

AV has been brought up many times on this thread, but now it is a diversion ?

 

[whiskersmom]

AV has been brought up many times on this thread, but now it is a diversion ?

But we're not talking about Adeno, we are talking about Denise's vet, her vet's number, her inabilty to trust certain people with certain information that will end up causing said vet to commit suicide over continuous harrassment.
We are not talking about Adeno.

 

[Denisebme]

This is so ridiculous....how can you people start harrassing this woman again? You honestly can't stand the thought that there are bearded dragons in the world that is AV negative....that would make your jobs as breeders so much easier if you could prove her a liar....just think about it....then you could say unchallenged that they all have it, therefore you don't have to test. And you can also tell all your potential customers that this is just something all beardies have, kind of like kidneys or a liver!!! But you can't do that when over there in California there's a breeder who's had her's tested and they came back negative....so what's the plan now? I know, I know, discredit her. Make her look like she's a liar and a sneak. We can also harrass her vet and maybe even her priest.....who else, who's got her momma's phone number, anybody? I'm ashamed to say that I belong to this community if this is how you people are going to act.
Denise, we all know they're dealing in smoke screens and we know what you're all about and that's all that matters.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING? The question at hand is naked beardies and why are they naked and will the people stripping them of their scales, kindly quit.

Oh Sweetie, this has never been about my tests. Lets face it, none of us know what the test results mean, how accurate they are, how many dragons are actually infected or if in fact they are all infected, how could we, there is absolutely zero statistical evidence published to make any hard fast claim about it.
Further, I have never said I was adeno free or that I was 100% negative, and anyone who knows me knows that. I am trying to establish a negative colony, I'm even trying to locate older colonies that might have negative dragons in them, but its really an academic exercise at this point since no one can tell us what it means.
We knew this was coming, right? I did, I've been expecting it since my very first post to this thread. That's what happens when you voice your opinions sometimes, but its not going to deter me.

 

[Dachiu]

Absolutely fantastic post!
I'm a breeder, not a "big" breeder, but a breeder, and I completely agree that this is about breeder responsibility. I went into testing this year scared to death. Like most, not only do I have a whole lot of money invested in my breeding colony, but these are my babies. I've raised every one of them, and I love them more than I can say.
I decided to go with PCR testing after doing a couple fecal, its simply more reliable. It is more expensive, but I didn't want to worry about the reliability of the test. I had the tests done and held my breath.
As of today, we have the results back for everyone, and it looks like we've been pretty fortunate. We had our breeder results in a while ago, they are all negative. I was more worried about some of our "pets", Dragons that we have purchased over the years but are not the quality we require for breeders, but we love them, so to us, they are pretty special. We have 3 of these, and 1 of them has tested postive and has most likely been positive since birth.
Now Izzy, my positive girl is the dragon I love most. She has been sickly her whole life, and I've spent a lot of time nursing her and I can not imagine giving her up and I won't put her down. The hardest decision for me was deciding that I could not risk the rest of my colony, and today I found her a new home where she'll be an only child. I hate this decision.
My husband and I have worked with reptiles for years, and this isn't the first time we've seen a disease impact the reptile community. The question always comes down to what responsibility lies with the breeder, and in this, every one of us faces an ethical issue, do the right thing for the community as a whole, or not. It's that simple to me.
Reputable is as reputable does, and the two most ethical people I have seen to date, well three really, are Wendi from Neverland Dragons, Tere from Obsession, and Cheri from Pogona. They've acted with courage and integrity at a very difficult time for them personally.
For the consumer, buyer beware. Ask questions before you buy, make sure you're doing everything possible to buy dragons from negative parents. It may not completely negate the risks, I'm not sure anyone knows enough about this virus to guarantee that, but your chances of getting a healthy disease free dragon are much better that way.

The PCR testing has to be done through your vet, if they have the testing avaliable, or you can contact Dr. Jacobson for a kit to take to your vet for the swab and the draw (Its a blood test). If I remember correctly, the tests are $65 from Dr. Jacobson, or whatever your vet and lab charges are.
There are a few real differences between the tests. PCR testing is handled like any other blood test. The fecal testing requires very specific handling in order for the test to be reliable, and, at least for me, with incorrect sanitation if you have multiple dragons being tested, you can actually accidently cross contaminate your samples. I didn't want to risk false positive or false negative readings, I didn't want to wait weeks for the test results, and I didn't want to second guess the results, so I went for the more sensative test, and that is PCR. I also found that here in California, its much easier to find someone who can accurately handle the PCR test.
I know that for most people, cost is a big issue. It was for me, I had 15 dragons I needed to test as quickly as possible. The fecal testing is less expensive. My concern was accuracy.

Ok, second wind. I talked to a couple of friends closer to you to see who they use, and you'll have to decide who is closer and more convienent for you.
I use Studio City Animal Hospital. All the vets there handle exotics, and I believe they all handle reptiles too.
There are 2 vets closer to you, one in Yorba Linda, one in Pasadena. Dr. Stien in Pasadena is supposed to be one of the best (he used to work with my vet in Studio City). The phone number I have for him is 626/441-1137. He's at Raymond Street Animal hospital.
The Yorba Linda vet, who I don't know personally, Dr. Greek, is also supposed to fairly familiar with Adenovirus, and is very familiar with bearded dragons. You can find him at Yorba Linda Veterinary hospital, 714/777-2314.
What I can tell you is that in my experience, finding someone that knows a lot about Adenovirus may be difficult. Finding someone with the ability to do the PCR testing for it isn't. Once you have your results back, then you'll find the rest of the information you might need in the adeno threads on this forum.
Someone told me a while back that there is a vet in Riverside that handles reptiles, but I can't find the information they sent me. I'll make a few phone calls in the morning and see what I can find out. There is also supposed to be a place in Loma Linda, both places way closer to you, so hopefully I'll be able to get some information on one of them to pass along.

This has been going on long enough... if I am wrong and you did test through Studio City as you said, who uses Cali Avian, who outsources to VMD - I will apologize. Ive been wrong before, and I have no problems admitting to being wrong again.

There are a handful of respectable people who have been active on this thread that have no reason/desire to "steal" your results Denise... Forward one of them a copy of your negative blood PCR/fecal swab results dated before 1/25/07 for verification.

If Cali Avian or Studio City or VMD verifies your results - I will not only apologize publicly, we will not produce any silkback dragons - ever.
And you know how important $ is to us...

Thanks,
Vickie & Rob

 

[KelliH]

I will volunteer to be forwarded the test results. Although I am very interested in reptile morphs of any kind, I do not own a single bearded dragon, have never bred them, and probably never will (I am paranoid about coccidia spreading to my leopard gecko collection).

 

[KelliH]

Dennis Hultman would also be an unbiased person to send the results to. He is one of the most trustworthy people on this site.

 

[whiskersmom]

Sherri, the steadfast martyr for the bearded cause...

Do you honestly think that producing silkbacks will cause the whole species to go extinct?

Definition of a martyr as put forth by Wikipedia is.....

A martyr (Greek μάρτυς "witness") is a person who is put to death or endures suffering because of a belief, principle or cause. The death of a martyr or the value attributed to it is called martyrdom.

I can safely say I am not that.

Do you honestly think that producing silk backs (because of all the inbreeding that has taken place in the past which has now given us a weaker version of what they were truely meant to be) and breeding AV positive dragons will not cause this captive bred species to become extinct?

I don't even need to say it...Bert Langerwerf said it "But, alas, the 'public' wants weak inbred animals...
It is just a question of time and they will die out in captivity." No one in their right mind can possibly say this man doesn't know reptiles. But it's sad because none of the breeders that can make a difference will listen.

 

[Denisebme]

This has been going on long enough... if I am wrong and you did test through Studio City as you said, who uses Cali Avian, who outsources to VMD - I will apologize. Ive been wrong before, and I have no problems admitting to being wrong again.

There are a handful of respectable people who have been active on this thread that have no reason/desire to "steal" your results Denise... Forward one of them a copy of your negative blood PCR/fecal swab results dated before 1/25/07 for verification.

If Cali Avian or Studio City or VMD verifies your results - I will not only apologize publicly, we will not produce any silkback dragons - ever.
And you know how important $ is to us...

Thanks,
Vickie & Rob

Well, I guess I'll be waiting for an apology then. Should I hold my breath?

 

[Dachiu]

Not at all. Provide the information, verifiable by phone/fax to a respected member here and you'll have an apology.

Rob & Vickie

 

[Denisebme]

Dennis Hultman would also be an unbiased person to send the results to. He is one of the most trustworthy people on this site.

You're right. Let me tell you a little story that can easily be verified by a couple people. Way back in April when this issue first came up, it was Dennis who suggested I send my results to someone that at least in the beginning, thought I was not such a great guy. That's exactly what I did, way back in April. Now, it just so happens that by the time I was able to get the results sent out, the whole situation on the BOI had blown over, but again, it was suggested to me that the person who has the results just hang onto them, verify them with the vet, and we could just move on. I agreed that it was the smartest course of action then, so that is exactly what I did.
I'm a lot of things, but I'm not an idiot.

 

[Dachiu]

Dennis is a wonderful candidate... and so is Kelli. Your choice.

As I said, provide the information, verifiable by phone/fax through one of the 3 sources and you'll have an apology.

Night,
Rob & Vickie