About the BOI and it's future here...

[shrap]

Anthony,

You are one of the rudest most disrespectful punks I have ran across in a long time. I am truly looking forward to seeing if you treat people the same way in person.

 

[alexestrada17]

I have to say I'm in the "I mostly agree with AC but not the way he said it" crowd.

I feel there are a few (loud) people ruining the BOI. I hesitate to post there because of the way people love to attack others. Even Good Guys end up getting crapped on because someone manages to dig up a tiny bit of mud on them (or twists their words) that has absolutely nothing to do with the situation at hand and blows it completely out of proportion. And, sad to say, most of the few, loud attackers are not contributors.

I'm sad at what the BOI has become. It is supposed to be a place where the truth comes out about sellers/buyers and where people can easily find information on breeders' reputations. While that still happens, I feel that the BOI nowadays is mostly people slinging mud at anyone and everyone they possibly can. If Fauna's reputation has gone down the toilet (I don't frequent many other fora), it's not hard to see why.

I like the idea of restricting BOI posts to only those who have had first-hand experience with the buyer/seller the thread is about. We could have one thread for each seller/buyer (which would make people easier to search for and find), and people wouldn't have to waste hours wading through all the third-party crap. If other people see weaknesses in arguments, they can PM the party or parties involved, who can then question the buyer/seller in the thread. There's no need for everyone and his dog to comment on who he thinks is lying, what terrible TV shows the seller watches, or how the buyer's grammar means he's an idiot who must've done something stupid to screw up the transaction.

While the BOI is (was?) a great resource, it won't be for long if the current trend continues. If the BOI becomes a laughingstock (assuming it hasn't already), then its usefulness will be gone. Granted, even in that form, it does help me add a lot of people to my "do not buy from/sell to" list....

This would be the way to go! If this is what is done, i will def. become a contributing member and run ads ASAP

 

[WebSlave]

I have to say I'm in the "I mostly agree with AC but not the way he said it" crowd.

I feel there are a few (loud) people ruining the BOI. I hesitate to post there because of the way people love to attack others. Even Good Guys end up getting crapped on because someone manages to dig up a tiny bit of mud on them (or twists their words) that has absolutely nothing to do with the situation at hand and blows it completely out of proportion. And, sad to say, most of the few, loud attackers are not contributors.

So, what would you have me do about them? Pick just this thread and if you were in my place, what would you do about the "crap" that is now in it and the people who contributed that "crap"? In the case of some BOI threads, you really don't know what is "crap" until all the dust is settled, so if you had deleted something that looked like "crap" at first blush, or even banned the member providing it, who would be hurt by that sort of interference in this process?

I believe some people are failing to see reality here. The BOI was never designed to be a court system with a judge, jury and formal presentation of witnesses. It was designed from the start to be a form of peer pressure provided from the individuals taking part in the discussions to come to either a consensus (which likely would rarely be 100 percent), or each reader coming to their own conclusions, and if stated as a participant thereby contributing to that peer pressure to hopefully get the issue at hand resolved when (or if) the party who appears to be in the wrong sees this public opinion expressed about their handling of the issue.

As for the suggestion of an Ebay-stype feedback system, sorry, but that just will not work in this environment. I actually have addressed this several times in the past, as this is something that comes up about once a year or so around here.

The problem with comparing any proposed system to Ebay is that Ebay is a completely closed loop system. They are in the middle of EVERY transaction that takes place, which allows them to control feedback so that only buyers and sellers can participate in the feedback system. They make a LOT of money, and can afford to hire LOTS of people to deal with the headaches. How would YOU like to be the one in the middle of all of the squabbles you have seen on the BOI over the last few years?

Also, there is no way to enforce a system where only the buyer(s) and seller(s) are involved. Someone would have to PROVE that relationship by requesting and viewing evidence, and quite frankly, I'm not about to spend my time doing that sort of thing. For one thing, it would be a complete waste of time. If someone is going to lie about a situation, they are certainly going to lie about the documentation as well. It doesn't take much in the way of a skill set to forge an invoice from the buyer's perspective, or for the seller to just deny the sale claiming that the documentation is bogus. So who is going to spend the time trying to prove such things? And to what end? Instead of some of the off topic and distracting posting we now see, you would instead see me or the mods here squabbling with many of the participants trying to prove the documentation and hearing all kinds of excuses that WE would have to make decisions on as to their truthfulness or accuracy of what they were presenting. Quite frankly, that just is not going to happen.

Honestly, guys, I have tried to think of every which way to run the BOI to try to make it better, but they all will be compromises of one sort or another. There is NO perfect way, simply because in order to be perfect, the people participating would have to be perfect. And if that were the case, well, what would we even need a BOI for then?

 

[Rextiles]

A possible add-on to consider for the BOI is how Amazon.com has a "does this post contribute to the discussion" voting feature for their Review and Comment section. If a Comment to a Review gets enough negative votes, the content of that particular post is hidden but not deleted for those that want to still view it. I think this not only helps to unclutter the majority of a given thread, but it also does not necessarily muzzle those that feel the need to speak. While it may not be a perfect system as there are going to be those that will try to "hide" posts specific to an individual regardless of what they have to say, at least it will give others the opportunity to still what has been said and decide if they also believe that that particular post adds to the discussion or not.

 

[WebSlave]

A possible add-on to consider for the BOI is how Amazon.com has a "does this post contribute to the discussion" voting feature for their Review and Comment section. If a Comment to a Review gets enough negative votes, the content of that particular post is hidden but not deleted for those that want to still view it. I think this not only helps to unclutter the majority of a given thread, but it also does not necessarily muzzle those that feel the need to speak. While it may not be a perfect system as there are going to be those that will try to "hide" posts specific to an individual regardless of what they have to say, at least it will give others the opportunity to still what has been said and decide if they also believe that that particular post adds to the discussion or not.

Would you really want to give the power to remove posts to anyone who had the initiative to create multiple bogus registrations here?

Is this conversation about whether or not everyone here wishes retain the BOI, or is it about how the BOI needs to be changed in order to be worth keeping? The implication, of course, is that if it is NOT changed, then it is not worth keeping?

 

[TattooLost]

Would you really want to give the power to remove posts to anyone who had the initiative to create multiple bogus registrations here?

Is this conversation about whether or not everyone here wishes retain the BOI, or is it about how the BOI needs to be changed in order to be worth keeping? The implication, of course, is that if it is NOT changed, then it is not worth keeping?

True, I think this has turned into a discussion on everyone's opinion on what needs to be fixed. I definitely am in the group who believes the BOI needs to stay, so I ask this. What needs to be done to keep it around? I hope you had a nice Christmas Rich, and some time off to relax and enjoy yourself. You said you were going to try to muse over the weekend on it, so any new thoughts?

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

Is this conversation about whether or not everyone here wishes retain the BOI, or is it about how the BOI needs to be changed in order to be worth keeping? The implication, of course, is that if it is NOT changed, then it is not worth keeping?

If it's about whether or not everyone here wishes to retain the BOI please post my response in the keep it category.
Thanks

 

[SamanthaJane13]

Just posted these threads to ciliatus.com & pangea to try and get some more members.

http://ciliatus.com/forums/index.php/topic,5067.msg41273/topicseen.html#msg41273

http://www.pangeareptile.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32826

I'm a long-rime member of both, and I really hope this helps.

 

[Rextiles]

Would you really want to give the power to remove posts to anyone who had the initiative to create multiple bogus registrations here?

Where did I say anything about removing posts? Did you even read what I said and/or are you even familiar with how Amazon's review/discussion system works? I never said anything about removing posts, instead, I pointed out a feature that Amazon uses that "collapses" a post based on it's relevancy to the thread voted on by readers of the thread. The post would still remain there to be read should anybody want to read it regardless of it's being voted "irrelevant". Of course you could always have the option as an end user of turning off that feature and always view all threads as well.

Is this conversation about whether or not everyone here wishes retain the BOI, or is it about how the BOI needs to be changed in order to be worth keeping? The implication, of course, is that if it is NOT changed, then it is not worth keeping?

I think both these questions are relevant towards each other. I think in it's current state, while the BOI is a valuable resource, it's abuse, as pointed out by so many others here, has made it almost pointless. In it's current state, I've found that at least 50% of the posts made in a heated thread had actually no relevance towards the OP's actual claim and those same posts often times obfuscate the intelligent posts made inbetween thereby rendering the thread almost pointless for those not wanting to waft through hundreds of pointless posts or posts that have no relevance to the original post made by the OP.

So yes, I believe change is needed to keep the BOI relevant and usable. I do agree with those here that are under the notion that there are those here that abuse the BOI to point out irrelevant arguments that have no place in a particular thread. In it's current state, while I believe the concept of the BOI is still important, how it's being currently (ab)used by some here makes it almost irrelevant to what it's intent and purpose is. At least that's my take on all of it and why I've never been a contributor nor a frequent poster here although I do check here on a daily basis to keep up with what's going on.

 

[AF Exotics]

Back to the matter,because what's the use of trying to fix something that doesn't exist anymore .I know,that some of what has been discussed might be why others do not contribute,but I see abuse in both directions,those who post to provoke and incite,and those who use this site to their benefit but do not contribute .Both are forms of abuse .Hey rich,what about the auction page or someone else setting it up .I will donate some feeder packages .

 

[WebSlave]

Where did I say anything about removing posts? Did you even read what I said and/or are you even familiar with how Amazon's review/discussion system works? I never said anything about removing posts, instead, I pointed out a feature that Amazon uses that "collapses" a post based on it's relevancy to the thread voted on by readers of the thread. The post would still remain there to be read should anybody want to read it regardless of it's being voted "irrelevant". Of course you could always have the option as an end user of turning off that feature and always view all threads as well.

Quite simply, many viewers here just are not computer savy. So if posts are out of sight, even with a fairly easy method to make them viewable again, there are enough members that will NOT know how to do that to make the conceptual leap that those posts, for all intents and purposes WILL be removed for a substantial portion of the viewing public. Personally I have never used the function you refer to on Amazon, and I spend a LOT of time on the web. So I think I'm not being all that unreasonable to think that this sort of functionality may not be old hat to a lot of other people as well.

I think both these questions are relevant towards each other. I think in it's current state, while the BOI is a valuable resource, it's abuse, as pointed out by so many others here, has made it almost pointless. In it's current state, I've found that at least 50% of the posts made in a heated thread had actually no relevance towards the OP's actual claim and those same posts often times obfuscate the intelligent posts made inbetween thereby rendering the thread almost pointless for those not wanting to waft through hundreds of pointless posts or posts that have no relevance to the original post made by the OP.

So yes, I believe change is needed to keep the BOI relevant and usable. I do agree with those here that are under the notion that there are those here that abuse the BOI to point out irrelevant arguments that have no place in a particular thread. In it's current state, while I believe the concept of the BOI is still important, how it's being currently (ab)used by some here makes it almost irrelevant to what it's intent and purpose is. At least that's my take on all of it and why I've never been a contributor nor a frequent poster here although I do check here on a daily basis to keep up with what's going on.

Hmm, well then perhaps I would not be out of line to think that I may have solid footing in thinking that the BOI, as it is now, may be only of more DEMONSTRATED value to those people who have become paying members? This is pretty much leaning in the direction I have stated earlier in that I can pretty much use the number of paid members as a rough rule of thumb as to the value of the BOI to all involved. So realistically, the loss of the BOI will be negligible to the MAJORITY of the members here since they have demonstrated with their $$ (or lack thereof) that the BOI (or perhaps this site in general) has no value to them. At least not to the extent that they are willing to help out financially. Yes, if it were to stay, that is just ducky to them, but if it were to go, well no big loss. Yeah, I know I'm reading a lot between the lines here, but quite honestly, that is what I have to do with this decision.

Sorry, but there is no magic wand to make the BOI perfect. I've tried MANY different strategies and policies to try to hit on something that would get closer to that goal, but quite often I got further from that goal rather then closer. Quite simply that is because everyone has their own opinion of what that "perfect" BOI would actually be, even when diametrically opposed to what an equal number of members think and want out of it.

The BOI is what it is today not only by my own choices, but by what the membership has shown me that they are willing to accept. Anyone who has been here any real length of time has seen those changes attempted, then discarded afterwards. Right now, the BOI is pretty much how it was in the very beginning, and this appears to be a fair happy medium between what is realistic and feasible, and what would be perfect. Yeah, sure I could keep on implementing (meaning paying for the custom programming) any and all suggested changes, but they have additional costs in that they will cause a loss of participation within the BOI. It has already been stated that my limiting the BOI to paid members alone will likely choke the life out of it, and pretty much I agree with that assessment. But I also believe that many of the changes suggested will have the same effect. So quite honestly, if I believe this is true, and those types of changes are apparently necessary for some people to consider financially supporting the BOI, and they will lead to the spiraling downward death of the BOI anyway, then why bother? I would be better off to just set the BOI to be viewed by paid members only and save myself a bunch of headaches and money needed for programming costs to implement the changes.

So in a nutshell, sorry, but even if I decide to keep the BOI as it is now, I have no intentions of making changes because of the above mentioned issues. I strongly believe that the medicine some are proposing as "cures" for the ills of the BOI will be worse then those ills themselves.

 

[WebSlave]

True, I think this has turned into a discussion on everyone's opinion on what needs to be fixed. I definitely am in the group who believes the BOI needs to stay, so I ask this. What needs to be done to keep it around? I hope you had a nice Christmas Rich, and some time off to relax and enjoy yourself. You said you were going to try to muse over the weekend on it, so any new thoughts?

I have at one time or another decided to do each of the following plans on January 1:

1. Leave the BOI as it is.
2. Change the BOI so that it can only be posted to by paid members, but viewing will be open to all.
3. Change the BOI so that it can only be viewed and posted to by paid members.
4. Do either (2) or (3) above and close down the BOI completely to all after 1 year.

At some point I had been convinced that each one of the above would be the best way to go, all things considered........

Obviously there is no clear path to a "right" thing to do.

I guess what is going to happen is however I feel at midnight on December 31 is what I will have to choose to do.

 

[dragonlvr64]

Rich,
I had only one thought of something to do while you are deciding on the fate of the BOI. Something that might bring a bit more awareness.
Is it possible that when a person goes to click on their Fauna link that a new page comes up? One that has no extra stuff on it, only the warning that the BOI is in trouble. That money must be raised or the BOI could/will close down. Basically stating, that if you value the BOI now is the time to show your support.
Make it that they can't get past this page unless they put in their initials or something. Something that they can't just click a box saying enter here...make it where they have to DO something to get into the normal sections of Fauna.
I know there have been banners and highlighted sections all over the place, but some/most people are ignoring it.
I think many people go to their bookmarked places on Fauna and bypass a lot of important information. Such as this issue with the BOI. On other forums, so many people are not aware of the lack of funding should a lawsuit come up. The financial ramifications of such a suit. The good chance the BOI might not be around after the first of the year.
I was just thinking of something so in their face, they can't help but read it and hopefully respond. Just a thought...

I so appreciate all you have done keeping this forum up and running and having the added protection the BOI gives all of us. Thank you!

 

[WebSlave]

Rich,
I had only one thought of something to do while you are deciding on the fate of the BOI. Something that might bring a bit more awareness.
Is it possible that when a person goes to click on their Fauna link that a new page comes up? One that has no extra stuff on it, only the warning that the BOI is in trouble. That money must be raised or the BOI could/will close down. Basically stating, that if you value the BOI now is the time to show your support.
Make it that they can't get past this page unless they put in their initials or something. Something that they can't just click a box saying enter here...make it where they have to DO something to get into the normal sections of Fauna.
I know there have been banners and highlighted sections all over the place, but some/most people are ignoring it.
I think many people go to their bookmarked places on Fauna and bypass a lot of important information. Such as this issue with the BOI. On other forums, so many people are not aware of the lack of funding should a lawsuit come up. The financial ramifications of such a suit. The good chance the BOI might not be around after the first of the year.
I was just thinking of something so in their face, they can't help but read it and hopefully respond. Just a thought...

I so appreciate all you have done keeping this forum up and running and having the added protection the BOI gives all of us. Thank you!

You would be surprised at the amount of hate mail (and from what I understand, posted on other sites) I have gotten from people accusing me of begging for money. Sorry, but I'm just getting tired of the number of petty people I have had the misfortune of meeting (cybernetically speaking) because of this BOI. Sorry, but no, I'm not inclined to generate even more hate mail with something of this nature.... I've said my piece about this. I've got just over three days to come to a decision.

But at least I haven't been threatened by lawsuits if I shut down the BOI. I have been expecting them.....

 

[DAND]

But at least I haven't been threatened by lawsuits if I shut down the BOI. I have been expecting them.....

There's probably a class action in the works.

 

[AF Exotics]

Hey Rich,I will sue you if you close the BOI,if you keep it open,if you breathe,if you step forward,or backwards .Now we got that out of the way .....Anybody need some feeder roaches,check out the contributions thread .I know,shameless .

 

[WebSlave]

Aw hell, I screwed up last night....

It was late and I was trying to get caught up on auditing the new registrations. Well apparently "Tony C" had gone into his profile and editing the location field to something condescending, and changed his email address to something obviously bogus as well. Now those are some of the criteria I check for to weed out spammers, so without looking further, I just deleted his account from the site. It wasn't till afterwards that it dawned on me that the name sounded familiar. So I was just looking through the older posts in this thread, and sure enough..........

Sorry about that folks. I guess having to audit over 50 new registrations at one shot was more then I should really try to do at one sitting. I do not ordinarily delete ANY account from this site when they have a post count showing, especially within the BOI.

 

[Lucille]

There's probably a class action in the works.

A low class action.......

 

[Lucille]

I guess what is going to happen is however I feel at midnight on December 31 is what I will have to choose to do.

Anyone want to get together a little paypal fund and have a bottle of champagne delivered to Rich on the 31st with a note telling him how much we love him and want him to keep the BOI?

 

[dragonlvr64]

Anyone want to get together a little paypal fund and have a bottle of champagne delivered to Rich on the 31st with a note telling him how much we love him and want him to keep the BOI?

Hey whatever will work at this point!!