Abusive Mishandling, Caution- Graphic Video

[Mooing Tricycle]

Anything shoving food down into the animals gullet is forcefeeding.

 

[Cat_72]

Assist feeding is just that....you don't shove the food "down their gullet". You place it into their mouth, toward the back....not shove it down, and gently close their mouth on it. If you do give it a little pull forward, it will "hook" on their teeth. Once you get them this far, often the feeding response kicks in.

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

Force feeding is shoving food down the gullet
Assist feeding it "hooking" or "Catching" the food in the mouth and the snake completing the feed.

Thats how I define them anyway

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Force feeding is shoving food down the gullet
Assist feeding it "hooking" or "Catching" the food in the mouth and the snake completing the feed.

Thats how I define them anyway

Yup! me too!

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Well, to use ball pythons as an easy example; if an animal is predisposed towards feeding triggers that make it difficult or expensive to maintain in captivity, the logical conclusion is that it should not be encouraged or propogated. If the only way to get calories inside an animal is force/assist feeding and all reasonable avenues of behavioral manipulation have been exhausted, then it's not an animal which should be added to the captive gene pool. Though behavioral tendencies are far less easily defined and identified than simple recessives controling color or pattern and it's difficult to be certain of the exact cause of an unsolved feeding issue, it should be treated as potentially genetic. Culling is my solution, since it removes the questions and possibilities raised by selling an animal strictly as a pet or keeping it alive in your personal posession, but opinions will vary about that.

I'm a culler. After listening to others rationality on why they do not want a snake that has been assist/force fed, I understand and agree that if there's a chance that it's genetic or the animal will continue to have problems, it's better off culled. I also cull kinks and other deformities immediately.

Anything shoving food down into the animals gullet is forcefeeding.

I'm of the opinion that "assist feeding" is just a nicer way to say "force feeding." You're still forcing the snake to open its mouth, forcing the snake to accept a meal it doesn't want.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I doubt that Deborah, (sorry, I don't know her), would intentionally try and harm her investments. I think she probably "winged it"---and I hate to say it---I do too sometimes.

But--for all you tube feeders---here's a new trick I just learned---called "hooking".

Open up a BP's mouth---point a thawed hopper down the bp's throat. Then--press the mouse against the bp's upper row of teeth--making sure that it's caught in the long, rear-facing teeth.

Once it's caught in the teeth--place the bp in its enclosure. The natural tendency of a bp will be to swallow that mouse---with hardly any stress. It works like a charm. Once you get a meal or two in them---they usually take off.

Yep, you nailed it. Well, live and learn..and learn I did.

 

[Cat_72]

I'm a culler. After listening to others rationality on why they do not want a snake that has been assist/force fed, I understand and agree that if there's a chance that it's genetic or the animal will continue to have problems, it's better off culled. I also cull kinks and other deformities immediately.



I'm of the opinion that "assist feeding" is just a nicer way to say "force feeding." You're still forcing the snake to open its mouth, forcing the snake to accept a meal it doesn't want.

It still has the opportunity to spit it out, it does not have to eat it. More often than not, one assist feed is all it takes to get a snake going and eating just fine on their own from then on, in my experience. If it continues to refuse food, and there is no apparent reason...then it's a different story.

And I don't believe in culling animals with such issues as a minor kink, etc if they can still make fine pets and their health and quality of life is not affected. It will only leave here with full disclosure of any such problem....but to kill an animal because it has an essentially cosmetic defect just ain't right in my book.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

And I don't believe in culling animals with such issues as a minor kink, etc if they can still make fine pets and their health and quality of life is not affected. It will only leave here with full disclosure of any such problem....but to kill an animal because it has an essentially cosmetic defect just ain't right in my book.

You're entitled to that opinion, Cathy.

But think of this...How can you guarantee the kinked/deformed animal doesn't have internal issues and their quality of life isn't affected or that the new owner will keep it for the rest of its life and not breed it? People lie. Why take the risk that those (possible) bad genetics won't be passed on based on someones word? It is a completely different story if you were to keep it yourself (I don't personally have room to hold onto a large group of kinked animals myself), but when you get buyers/adopters involved is when you have a problem.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to worry about it at all...Where's my reptile utopia?

 

[mvite]

Lemme tell you how cool it is to have a place to talk about this.

Everyone at work would think I am a nut if I asked them their opinion on force-feeding, assist-feeding and culling bad eaters! For someone relatively new to the hobby---its part of a way for me to learn as well.

I have some normal bps that just won't eat. I've tried a few things--and I even had the plastic bag out the other day--for the freezer. But I just couldn't do it! I worked so hard to get those babies---that killing them would almost be an insult to my effort. I "hooked" them--and at least they will live a little longer. They're just my pets---but I still helped make them!

Deformities are a different story to me---I would put em out of their misery.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Lemme tell you how cool it is to have a place to talk about this.

I agree!

I have some normal bps that just won't eat. I've tried a few things--and I even had the plastic bag out the other day--for the freezer. But I just couldn't do it! I worked so hard to get those babies---that killing them would almost be an insult to my effort. I "hooked" them--and at least they will live a little longer. They're just my pets---but I still helped make them! Deformities are a different story to me---I would put em out of their misery.

Not everyone can make a hard decision like culling, and I understand that. Everyone will do what they feel necessary for their animals...They should just fully disclose the information to potential buyers and consider consequences of certain decisions. I realize my posting that I do cull animals could cause consequences of being "flamed," but I can deal with that.

 

[mvite]

I didn't mean anything bad about culling----it's a genetic "good thing"!

I am a cold-blood pet lover. Fish--coral--snakes----I really have little feeling for the animals themselves--its more like I am killing my effort with a snake--because it took so much damn time! When I bred freshwater fish--I thought nothing of scooping out and flushing fish with deformed fins, missing eyes, etc.

I have breeder BPs that I have raised from hatchlings--and I think about all those little "rat puppet shows" I have done to get them to feed. Then I think about the temp cycling, the incubator building, the rats in my freezer, the racks I bought & built, etc.

I don't mean that you are a meanie for culling---not one bit. I think its the smart thing to do.

 

[shrap]

I'm of the opinion that "assist feeding" is just a nicer way to say "force feeding." You're still forcing the snake to open its mouth, forcing the snake to accept a meal it doesn't want.

I have seen a single assist feeding get "never have taken a meal in their lives" neonates to start eating on their own countless times. Also, assist feeding is a much less invasive procedure than force feeding and not nearly as stressful for the animal.


But I agree completely that neither procedure should be used prematurely. After all even a new born neonate Ball Python can go 10-12 weeks without eating and not lose any significant weight. Only when I start to see some weight loss will I assist feed.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I didn't mean anything bad about culling----it's a genetic "good thing"!

I don't mean that you are a meanie for culling---not one bit. I think its the smart thing to do.

I know you didn't.

But I agree completely that neither procedure should be used prematurely. After all even a new born neonate Ball Python can go 10-12 weeks without eating and not lose any significant weight. Only when I start to see some weight loss will I assist feed.

That's for sure. Had a little bp male this year who refused and refused and refused and then finally around the 10 week mark ate all by himself.

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

I realize my posting that I do cull animals could cause consequences of being "flamed," but I can deal with that.

I didn't want you to feel like your all by your self!

I cull. Not ruthlessly~ I usually try assist feeding first on BPs~ I don't on corns (I've never had it work on a corn so I don't even try it anymore~ I feed the Kingsnake). I used to try a lot harder to save every single one~ but then I realized Mother Nature really does intend for some of these to be feed for something else and some of them are just going to "Fail to thrive" no matter what.

 

[Cat_72]

I'm not going to say I I have never culled an animal, nor will I say that I will never have to do so again. I just believe that it has to be a judgement call....a animal that take one or two assist feedings, and then eats fine on its own from then on....I don't see any good reason to kill it. A gecko with a little kink in it's tail, eating fine and perfectly healthy otherwise? Nope. It will make someone a perfect pet.

Of course, if I have an animal with a 45 degree angle kink in the middle of its back...or a cleft palate...or something else much more drastic, I will agree that it's for the best.

I guess I look at it more this way.....I wish I had some good statistics on how many people actually own herps as pets, and how many actually breed them. Perhaps it depends somewhat on your intended customer base is....obviously, high-dollar morphs are probably going to be geared more toward selling to other breeders.....but in the end, I would be willing to wager that there are far more "casual" snake owners out there than folks that breed them. The very small percentage of animals that are sold (or given away) with cosmetic defects, then multiply that by the number of folks who get the animal as a pet and never breed it....well, I don't think the odds justify killing every animal born with every cosmetic defect.

And I have a really hard time addressing all of the "what-if's" anyway. If I did, I would be much more concerned about the "what-if" of the animal's basic care (how many improperly cared for herps do we see?) as opposed to the what-if of an animal not taking it's first meal passing that "problem" (how hard is it really to assist feed one animal, one time) anyway? Hell, if I thought about all of the what-ifs all of the time, an animal would never leave my house!! (And I'd have a lot less animals here already lol).

If an animal continues to not eat, after repeated attempts at feeding....that's a different story. Honestly, I don't believe in tube-feeding (even when it's done RGHT) as method of keeping hatchlings and neonates that have never eaten alive. It can be a useful tool in previously healthy, feeding, and thriving animals who perhaps because of an illness or injury are too weak to eat, but I do agree that if it gets to that point with a hatchling - if I don't tube feed it, it's going to starve to death - that there is probably a reason for it, and it is not destined to survive.