Adam Block (Inquiry)

[Darin Chappell]

I remember when I was a child, listening from time to time to my parents, aunts and uncles, and grandparents talk about family business. Many of the things they were discussing were beyond my understanding for several reasons at the time, but much of it was due to the fact that there was a history in the family that occurred long before I was born. Because of this, the CONTEXT of their discussions simply alluded me, and I was incapable of fully comprehending why everyone held the positions they did.

I believe that this is the same phenomenon that some of you newer folks are experiencing here on the BOI. I do not at all mean to imply that you are children in ANY way! I merely mean that, being new to the BOI family, there is a subtle context that you may not yet have grasped, because so much family history has transpired before you joined us here.

For example, there is no "inner circle" here. I know it seems that way because so many of us post so often, and we all pretty well come down on the same side of an issue. However, that is more because many of us have the same professional values, and we simply detest those practices which leave others who are less educated about internet business wondering what happened to their snakes and/or money. Several of us have been associated with this site for quite a while and have seen the scam artists come and go regularly. I can't tell you how many people have been shown to be lying, cheating, scammers (and I mean with bona fide, solid PROOF) by the efforts of the people here at the BOI. Are we a clique? If by that you mean a group of people with common interests that want nothing more or less than a safe environment in which to do business as buyers and sellers on the internet in the reptile industry, then yes, I suppose we are. However, if you mean that we are a group of people who get together and decide who we will lynch next week, or that we compare notes before we determine how we'll come down on an issue, I assure you NOTHING is further from the truth.

In fact, let me just say (without airing any old family laundry) that there have been SEVERAL times when some of us old-timers have gone after each other tooth and nail. Why? Because no one, NO ONE is cut any slack here on the BOI. If Rich Zuchowski ripped someone off, and he was unwilling to do right by the person in question, I promise you that this board would go down in flames calling Rich out for his actions. No one is safe from the probing eyes of this forum when they determine to lie, cheat, or steal, and I am thankful for that fact.

So, let me say "Welcome to the family!" I am glad you are here, and I am sure everyone else is also. If you have questions, ask them. If you think someone is being unfairly judged, say something about it. If you want to see proof before believing anyone, that's what this forum is for, so demand it! No one will think any less of you, and no one will jump all over you for asking (if they do, some of us old-timers will set them straight). Just please try to understand that there may very well be some previous information in the family history of which you might not be aware. We'll tell you about it if you ask us, but we may not realize who has, and has not been around long enough to recall when "so and so" said "such and such."

Thanks for reading my uncharacteristically long post!

:laugh:

 

[BrianB]

I think there IS one big difference between Webslave's price list with "sold out" being used in proxy for "didn't produce" or "not available" and Adam's price list: Rich has a proven track record with corns, period. If he did not produce a morph in any given season, chances are he has produced it. If it's a new morph he's just added to the price list and he fails to produce it, odds are at some point he'll produce them, because he's produced probably about a bazillion and a half corns. He's not trying to use the pricelist to establish his credibility.

Now, in Adam's case, it seems like "sold out" may be an attempt to establish credibility with a species he's not known for producing. My understanding is that Adam produces mainly colubrids and that's what his track record is with. I did think after looking at his site and seeing those balls that he meant he'd brokered them.

Now, I think that if he brokered them, and that's why they're "sold out," then no harm, no foul. If he's just posting juvies he plans to raise up as "sold out." then I think it'd be more appropriate to post them on a page of future projects or something. Just my opinion.

Is it a question worth asking? Personally, I don't see it as warranting a whole thread myself, though I don't fault Ritchie for it in the least. To me, those snakes' label is a drop in the bucket compared to a lot of things that have come straight from Adam's own keyboard. But, Ritchie's post is no worse than any other inquiry asking about animals seen advertised, even if marked "sold out."

Someone asked if it was OK if NERD sold an undersized snake?

Well, that depends, doesn't it?

1. The feed card shows slow feeding in the winter. The ball could well have been trying to shut down for the winter, and they've been known to go quite a while without food.

2. A lightly fed snake doesn't necessarily equate to an unhealthy one.

3. There was no proof that the snake was actually represented as two years old, and there was no proof that the snake was in any way misrepresented.

4. NERD did not deny selling that snake, nor deny its weight. They haven't lied about anything, and based on 1-3 don't have any motive to do so.

5. If you look at the feedings from the new owner, you will see quite a few feedings in a row that are only FOUR DAYS apart. Last time I checked, overfeeding was a worse practice than underfeeding.

Considering the timeframe involved with this other snake -- which has nothing to do with the complaint about Adam's albino -- I'd have to say that NERD was clear of any fault in the situation. If the buyer thought the snake was underweight for it's age (which should really be underweight for its length) then he should have returned the snake. Period. The snake has problems after a ton of overfeeding WAY down the road from the purchase, and people think the problem lies with the breeder? Let's be honest. Liability ends somewhere. At some point, the buyer has a responsibility for the welfare of the animal. Animals DO die, and sometimes it's NOBODY's fault. And it really, really sucks. But it's a risk that people take on when getting into breeding.

As for the deleted thread: Adam's assaults on NERD went WAY over the line and there IS a guideline that you have to be able to back up your statements in some way in the BOI guidelines. There always has been. I'm glad to see it being enforced. Heck, I had a guideline enforced on me the other day and I'm glad of it. (Got hot under the collar at seeing a post by a farm operation I personally despise -- but my post was inappropriate and got nuked. As it should have been.)

Anyway, just my .02 on a couple of things here.

 

[Uffern]

Very well said, Darin. I'd like to point out that I am by no means one of the "old timers," yet, the first day I came to this board, I registered and voiced my opinions on the topics I thought I could add something to. To my surprise, I was taken seriously, and when I disagreed with the majority, I was not set upon like a lamb. At first, I expected there to be an unspoken ranking, a pecking order, but I soon realized that each post is taken on it's merit.

I am not a well known breeder (yet), but I personally believe I have nothing to fear from the BOI, as I know I am a good guy. I am thankful that people like Ritchie and the other slueths are here, as I know that if the day comes that someone posts something eroneus about me, they will be there to help expose the truth of the matter.

Just the other day I was telling another breeder that he should put a link to the BOI on his site when it is up and running. He didn't want to at first saying, "What if someone goes on there and says something bad about me just to hurt me?" I told him that there are people here that will sniff out the lies like my tegu does mice. After a few minutes of explaining how the BOI works, he decided it was a good idea to have the link. Just give it a little time and observe how things work. I am certain you will have as much faith in this board as the rest of us.

 

[Stardust]

Massage therapist came over today and gave me a GREAT massage so I am tired early and will retire for tonight.
I did want to say, Ritchie, thank you for showing you have a human side, maybe somewhere in the middle of your hammering you should somehow try to reflect that, so us newcomers can see it.
And I am sure you can understand that when I address you and Webslave and Ken come on (even in a nice way that they did) it reminds me of a recent nightmare from hmmmm somewhere else hmmmm tho the name eludes me at the moment. See what I am saying from an "outsiders" point of view?
You could have just kept the same thread going of Adams.
Oh by the way, I did in this thread AND Adams say if he has info or proof to get on with it and get it out. (again not my exact words)
I am not going to get into what Nerd did not answer as well as what Adam did not answer, if his apologies mean nothing here anyway, and he will not respond. Let it go, just like if NERD does not respond to how old the snake was.
Adam asked webslave, if I have that right, on how to post that here, there was talk of that. Oh forget it for tonight, feeling to good to let this get to me
Just be human, I am sure you helped a lot of people just don't let it go to your head.

Rozann Lamont

 

[Stardust]

oh cant forget this, Darin you are funnier than he11!

 

[BrianB]

Here's what I'm talking about on the feed card. Maybe this is all OK, but I wanted to be clear in my prior statement:

NERD's last few feedings (according to person who posted card):

2/11
3/11
3/22
3/27
4/10
5/7
5/19

Ok, looks like at this point, the snake was eating about once a month (the feedings from Oct through Jan were about a month apart on average, as well), then picked up feeding in March (Spring) and then didn't feed much in April for some reason. Kind of up and down, and really seeing the feed card, I wouldn't buy it myself. Really, though, the owner DID buy the snake and since he has the feed card, it's not like he didn't know prior to or at least soon after the sale.

Now, the new owner's first few feedings:

5/31 -> Pretty good, about 11 days after the last feeding. Let the snake settle it seems.
6/5 (five days later, bare minimum IMO)
6/11 (six days later)
6/15 (four days)
6/19 (four days)
6/22 (three days)
6/28 (six days)
6/29 (the next day? huh?)
7/8 (seven days after a lot of heavy feeding)(june has 30 days, right?)
7/9 (next day again and I wonder if the owner can't gauge how much to feed at one meal or not)
7/12 (three days after doubling up two feedings a day apart)
7/15 (another three days)

OK, I'm going to be up front and admit that I'm not a big time ball python breeder, but I have kept a ball and I have kept snakes for several years. I believe that this feeding schedule is a bit on the heavy side, even for a ball. The original post noted a huge weight gain, as well. Is it possible that the rapid weight gain was a problem? Is it possible after several months in the new owner's care that any reasonable person would blame NERD?

Perhaps the light feeding schedule caused problems for the snake. I don't think it would based on my own experience, but perhaps someone can enlighten me. On the other hand, if the new owner thought that the snake was smaller than it should be, and had a record of spotty feeding, and STILL decided to keep the snake.... then it was a known risk.

 

[Clay Davenport]

The issue with this inquiry is valid in my mind. While on the surface, no harm has been done, and I personally don't think Adam has any plans of ripping anyone off, it does illustrate an aspect of character.
Rich said he has done the same thing with his pricelist, but the difference lies in the intent. Rich has produced more than a few cornsnakes in the past, and it's a safe assumption that he will produce a few more in the future.
But when you start using this same strategy with very high end animals which you have yet to sell any at all, then the intent is to artificially raise your perceived status to a level much higher than it really is.
Anyone who deals in pie bald balls is considered one of the more major players. It's not an issue of whether Adam produced any, but whether he ever had any in his possesion to sell. Even if he were only brokering pie balds, then that would still place him in a more "elite" catagory than the average person selling snakes.
Whether he bred them or brokered them is irrelevant. If he possesed and sold these snakes, then the point is moot.

Adam constantly reinforces this perception with comments suggesting that a $2500 investment in an albino ball python was small change, and claiming an inflated picture of his experience. It's not the details it's the intent, and his intent is to artificially establish his credibility. Even if you word the truth in such a way it leads someone to believe seomthing else, the result is still a lie.

 

[Darin Chappell]

"On the other hand, if the new owner thought that the snake was smaller than it should be, and had a record of spotty feeding, and STILL decided to keep the snake.... then it was a known risk."

THAT is a very good point, Brian. Well put!

It's funny how you can read over an issue several times and still not see something that is rather glaringly obvious! However, I missed it completely until you pointed it out. Thanks!

 

[HerpVenue]

I did want to say, Ritchie, thank you for showing you have a human side, maybe somewhere in the middle of your hammering you should somehow try to reflect that, so us newcomers can see it

I keep thinking everyone knows about the BOI and that everyone knows everything that went on in the past.
I forget that new people come here and have "no clue" (for lack of a better term. No insult intended) as to what has transpired in the past. Even us "old timers" learn something new. I learned to always include links or quotes. Do not assume everyone knows everything.

 

[R Reptile Ranch]

I wasn't going to touch this post because I am a newbie and don't want to give people the wrong impression. But trust is the biggest part of selling reptiles thru the internet. When I go to a website and see the words SOLD OUT next to an animal, I am under the assuption they breed this particular animal. In my opinion if they never had the animal and put SOLD OUT next to it on their website they are misrepresenting themselves, in other words deceiving their customers just to make themselves look bigger and better then what they really are. This not only hurts his reputation but could turn someone off from buying reptiles online. Which would affect everyone in this industry.

Personally, Adam has jumped all over me for posting in the wrong section. Again, I am new at posting here and did not know the different areas of this site. I am only adding this because in an earlier post which had an appology from Adam he stated he would not jump all over someone for posting here. I'm not doing this to get back at Adam because of what he did to me, I'm just stating the facts.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Lie: "A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood."

When I go to a website and see the words SOLD OUT next to an animal, I am under the assuption they breed this particular animal.

Nichole,

There are several examples of people in this hobby that do not breed but buy and sell reptiles. Some have very good reputations because of the genetic origin and animals they sell. If they sold what they had in stock, then I don't have a problem with them saying "SOLD OUT" even when they never bred those animals. It just means that, they sold what they had in stock. Well-known reptile importers will also state SOLD OUT when they run out of a certain herp, and maybe they never bred a thing in their lives.

In my opinion if they never had the animal and put SOLD OUT next to it on their website they are misrepresenting themselves, in other words deceiving their customers just to make themselves look bigger and better then what they really are.

If the intention is to deceive the customer into thinking you have a certain reptile morph that you don't just to make you look "bigger" then I agree with you.

Adam never addressed this issue himself. We don't know in which of the two categories he falls. He might have sold at retail prices (in his page he was asking $2,500 to 3,500 for albinos) all the animals he bought wholesale (I assume he bought them for less in Daytona (Show-quality animals!)

The other possibility is that he is trying to establish a reputation for hymself as a breeder of high end ball pythons. But he never openly stated so in his page so it would just be the reader's assumption.

So the question is SOLD OUT of what? Animals he never produced (IMO unacceptable approach) or animals he bought to be sold (IMO acceptable practice).

Best regards.

 

[ms_terese]

About that feed card

I believe that the feed card that was posted is for the animal that survived, so there is really no issue about that snake.

The original post with the feed card stated that the other snake that was purchased died a week later, and therefore they'd not kept the feed card.

However, what's interesting there is that Adam had originally stated that the snake that died was what originally piqued his interest in having NERD snakes die "a couple of days apart". The sales receipt for the other dead snake shows 5/30/02. That means that the snake that died "a week later" would have died the first week of June or so. Adam reports his snake died in the beginning of October.

1) How is 8 weeks "a couple of days apart"
2) How could Adam think they were from the same line, therefore causing it to be genetic? I don't know any eggs that hatch 8 weeks apart.

Anyway, these are more relevant to the other thread, but wanted to clear up the misconception that the feed card that was posted was NOT from a snake that has died.

 

[The BoidSmith]

So the question is SOLD OUT of what? Animals he never produced (IMO unacceptable approach) or animals he bought to be sold (IMO acceptable practice).

My mistake, it should have read:

"So the question is SOLD OUT of what? Animals he never produced or had (IMO unacceptable approach) or animals he bought to be sold (IMO acceptable practice)"

Best regards.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

FROM A "NEWBIE'S" PERSPECTIVE...

I've been involved with the BOI for a few years now mostly as a "lurker", and only just recently re-registered in order to post. I think the BOI runs circles around the "other" website in that it allows for open inquiry and discussion about doing business in the Herp Community, but I am concerned when there is so much infantile flame-throwing going on, and am feeling defensive about the obvious dvision of "old-timers" and "newcomers".

People are exploring Fauna as a potential alternative for the disillusionment that is felt with the admisnistration practices of the "other" website, and it is discouraging when Moderator for a BOI Forum needs "moderated." Also, to quote one of the moderators:

Adam's words were taken at face value, and life went on. Alas, his little deception lasted all of one week. After that, he was back to spouting off about how much of a joke the BOI is, how easy it is to manipulate people, etc. It seemed as if every other thread was interjected with Adam's little pearls of wisdom.

Adam was quite close to being banned from this site due to his constant trolling and baiting."

So, let me ask this question... What's with all the viscious name-calling, slandering, removal of posts, and and threats to "ban" people on this forum?

Marcia McGuiness
"The Lizard Lady"
www.thelizardlady.net

 

[The BoidSmith]

Marcia,

Maybe you already read the thread below, if not, get a good cup of coffee, and plan on spending a good day reading through all the posts. That will give you an idea of what some people refer to.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7678&highlight=adam

Best regards.

 

[R Reptile Ranch]

Daniel,

I totally agree with what you said. If he had the snakes then it would be acceptable to put "sold out" on his website. But if he as never offered the snake for sale then in my opinion he is deceiving the public. What it should say is "future project not yet available." Thats just in my opinion. When I see the words sold out that tells me that he either breeds them or has had them for sale in the past. If he is just trying to make himself look better then I think that is totally wrong and not only makes himself look bad but everyone else in this industry. Again, without trust from buyers we could not sell via the internet.

 

[WebSlave]

Marcia,

There has to be a limit imposed in even the BOI as to what is acceptable behavior. A few people have been banned from here, and there certainly will be more if the need arises. There are people, unfortunately, that have no other purpose in life but to disrupt the lives of others and to cause contention and anger. The latest definition of the word 'troll' has been basically created as a spawn of the internet.

Unfortunately, there are times when serious discussion cannot take place when people acting in the capacity of trolls are continually trying to disrupt the process. I am extremely tolerant of such things and give people the benefit of the doubt, but the point definitely can be reached to where I decide that this place is much better off without them. In nearly all cases, I do so far after most other people have been ready to see them go. And in a lot of cases, I have not banned people that the majority of users here were insisting I do so.

Recently I have had a system implemented here that will give a visual record of warnings that could result in a person being banned if the warnings are ignored. This has not been fully implemented yet, as I need to get some feedback about what actually constitutes sufficient grounds for a warning, as well as to what level I should allow the warnings to reach before a banning is warranted.

But as has been said before, I am more inclined to allow someone the opportunity to wrap a rope around their own neck than I am to try to save them from themselves but stopping them from posting here. But someone just posting flames anonymously will be ousted rather quickly.

As for the rest of the site, please note that there are a LOT of forums here now, and they will be moderated in the classical sense that people are expected to be civil. Disagreements with anyone, moderators and myself included, are perfectly acceptable, except to the point that someone is posting for no other reason than to bash someone else. Bear in mind that the warning system I am implementing will be active in those forums as well.

I believe I have been fair about how I treat people here, but probably not everyone on the planet will agree with that. But I do believe that if I find the need to ban someone, it will not come as a surprise to anyone, and I suspect that most people's only gripe will be that I waited too long to do so.

As for a division between old timers and new people, there is no way around that. People whom have been around here quite a while are going to feel that they are talking to family and friends, and quite often are not going to reference something they say that is common knowledge amoung the 'old timers'. There is just no way to avoid this. Certainly it is going to make some of the newer people feel like they are on the outside, but that would be true probably anywhere. It has always been recommended that newcomers to any message board spend a lot of time lurking before jumping into a conversation. It certainly is not a requirement here, but maybe some time reading older threads would be worthwhile.

Infantile flame throwing will be dealt with as needed on a case by case basis. Unfortunately, sometimes this is a determination that is in the eye of the beholder and is not absolute. Sometimes one's style of writing is just such that it appears to be flaming. I try to take as much into consideration as I can when reading what someone is saying. Also, someone coming under fire and feeling that they personally and professionally are being called to the mat for their actions will often get hot under the collar. Although this must be tolerated, to an extent, there will have to be a point to where it is just more than is prudent. Again, I will sometimes decide to keep on allowing that person to wrap more rope around the neck. People will be strongly judged by the way they act here and it may be in everyone's best interests to allow a true picture to fully emerge.

I hope I covered your points sufficiently. But in all honesty, this is drifting away from the topic quite a bit. I have a forum up in the Admin & Other Irrelevancies section that is called Discussions about this site that would be much more appropriate for these types of discussions.

Thanks.

 

[Classic Dum's]

What's with all the viscious name-calling, slandering, removal of posts, and and threats to "ban" people on this forum?

Anger and hatred can make you do things you normally wouldnt. On more then one case I have seen Rich violate his terms and what he tells people to do here lately. Simply I see his anger turning him into the monster he tries to make the "other" admin out to be.

If Rich Zuchowski ripped someone off, and he was unwilling to do right by the person in question, I promise you that this board would go down in flames calling Rich out for his actions

Well lets so how the board take to Rich budding up with a thief and trying to align his moderators with them.


I am amazed by some of the things on this very site. This site is here so someone can inquire about another and so people who do right can get recognized and to weed out the thieves correct? One thing that has baffled me for a long time is Riches alignment with Adam Block. We all know Adam is a liar and a thief. Adam got busted a long time ago because people who trusted him sent him animals and told him to pay them once he got them. Well he never paid them, and when called on it said “that’s an issue for me and him”. In other words shame on you for bringing this up here. Adam is thief I don’t care how anyone looks at it he is. But then you have Rich who starts this site aligning himself with him. He has even gone as far as to tell Richie(moderator of another section of this site) to be buddies with him when the both got banned from kingsnake. Heres Riches words to Adam

When I asked him(Richie Luna) to tone it down about you, it was a simple matter for him to come to the conclusion that you were in the same liferaft(referring to them both being banned from another site, trying to align the army) and it was a good idea to stop trying to push you out to the sharks. Probably two people can row better than one can

So he wants this sites ferret to stop pushing a thief to the sharks and climb in a boat with him, coming from the guy who started the site, go figure. Now here we have another interesting comment from Rich towards Adam

I am actually appreciative of the fact that we don't have that friction between us any longer

So Rich starts a web site to catch thieves and when it catches one of those thieves he turns around and tells that thief he is glad theres no friction between them, go figure. Because that was your original intent wasn’t it Rich, to weed out the thieves in this business. The reason you started this board was the $1200 check you got taken for by the army guys wife I think at one of the Carolina shows. why would Rich tell one of his moderators to hope in a boat with a thief and known liar? Why would he tell a thief he is glad there is no tension between them etc etc. I mean come on that’s makes no sense.

Anyway “I want to know your experiences” My experience with Adam sucked! I was very patient with him he drug on our deal for the sipper tubes for weeks. Had excuse after excuse as to why he hadnt shipped them in the agreed upon time then he acted like it was a big joke when I got upset about it as I needed those sipper tubes in the agreed upon time. As far as the balls when I spoke to him over the phone to confirm our deal about the tubes he seemed like a guy who loves to talk. He went on about his snakes and various other things however never did he mention anything about ball pythons. He proudly rambled about a ton of other species he claims to keep but never mentioned Balls. So I cant help ya there, but from my experiances with him would advise anyone against dealing with him.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Rich,

I posted a reply in the "Admin & Other Irrelevancies" section. Thanks for letting me know where I needed to go with this.

 

[WebSlave]

Jason,

I do believe that it is simply a matter that you are so blinded by your hatred for Adam Block that you view ANYONE whom might try to keep a discussion about him fair and even handed as joining with the enemy. Just because someone will not join in your crusade along with you, you apparently feel that they are choosing sides against you.

But than you for voicing your opinion on the matter. It reminded me of another option that I wanted to add to the warning system I am implementing.