Bad Guy Adam Wysocki - No response

[StrictlyExotics]

I understand that Adam has had some personal problems. However, I don't see how that is the buyer's problem. Since Adam does not have the money to pay back all at once, I assume he spent the money. In essence, he has been loaned money for two years while the buyer waited for repayment or animals. Is it common practice to spend the money before the buyer has the animals in hand and is satisfied? I am owed $200 from a deal I made with someone else over 2 years ago. He had some personal problems too. I have had my own personal problems in that time though and could have used that money many times. I wish I had it now, but the guy just hit another rough patch and I am guessing I wont be paid at all.
In my opinion the OP deserves his money back with consideration given to the difference in exchange rates over the past 2 years, and possibly interest.

David,

You single-handedly made the most important point in this thread. The OP does deserve his money back with exchange rates and interest. But from what time point though. The only proof that I have seen in the two years that the money has left the OP was in an email dated in March 2010 stating that he would just want a refund.

I want to know what was going on from 2008 until March 2010 as to why there was no reconciliation or completed transaction. Was this on the OP, or the seller. To me, there may be other issues as to why it has taken so long for anything to happen until March 2010. For all we know, from the proof provided us in this thread, the OP might still owe the seller money to complete the transaction. I am sure that its not the case, but without proof posted here, whats the point.

 

[lillyorchid]

Thanks for posting the PDF Andrew! I'm glad you are getting a refund and I do hope it takes less then 6 months for your sake due to waiting for so long.

I personally still think Adam is a "good guy". Things happen at times that are out of our control. I'm not saying that we should give him a free pass on the lack of communication, but we shouldn't "hang him" just yet. I know every one has personal problems from time to time and I know when my father had lung cancer and lost his job and medical insurance.... guess what I did? I put my self in some major debt to care for him over the last year he way alive. Did I fall back on my payments? Yup. Did I drop things I was supposed to do? Yup. I dropped the internet, lost contact with a bunch of people.... Did I loose credibility, respect, and so forth? Probably, but the bottom line is... I had to put my family first before anything else. I'm now catching back up on things two years later. Things don't happen over night, but over time. I'm glad like I said before that Adam and Andrew are able to work this out.

 

[StrictlyExotics]

I don't know Dean. Given the time line of Andrew's posts in search of Adam on other forums, this would have to be an pretty elaborate ruse is he wasn't in fact having difficulty reaching Adam. Not to mention that Adam mentions his lack of communication in his email.

Trust me Kevin.. I TOTALLY understand what you are saying. My whole point is that the proof should be posted in the BOI as I have not read the other threads. Some people might not utilize the other forums either.

I dont doubt that there is some money owed and I am not out to lynch the OP. I just want proof posted here as I thought it had to be per BOI rules. If I am wrong about proof needing to be posted here, I will no longer make that stand.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

For people saying it's not stealing to keep the money and not communicate.. I'd love to have about $5K right now. If you send it to me.. I'll promise to ignore you for 2 years, then I'll tell you I'll pay you some payments on it.

I've always said Adam was a good guy, and I'm very glad the OP will eventually get his money back, but it's not okay to just say "Oh, I'm having some personal problems" and that makes it not wrong to keep money and ignore the person. How many times have it been stated in a BOI posting that it's not the buyers fault that the seller spent the money before the snakes arrived? Sometimes it because the snake died in transit.. is it somehow different to spend the money before the snake arrives versus the snake ever being shipped?

Again, I don't think Adam is a bad guy, but he has dropped the ball in keeping money that didn't belong to him.. and still continuing to keep that money longer, in paying it in a payment plan. Perhaps a payment plan is the best he can do in a bad situation, but it doesn't make it right.

The fact that he is paying in a payment plan makes me think he IS keeping the financing of the anti-legislation seperate from his personal finances. So no reason to think he would pull money from the non-profit to pay his personal accounts. But if someone IS going to be in charge of something that big, involving donated funds, they NEED to be above reproach! Without the public believing in their integrity, the donations won't come in as much. That's why I hope this does all get resolved very quickly.

 

[wes smith]

Proof

This is straight from the sticky thread Rich posted at the top of the BOI.....

"Proof is optional, but recommended if you would like to remove any doubts about the truth of what you are posting. But this is purely up to you, just as the believability of what you post is purely up to the reader of your words."

Andrew has removed any doubts I had that he is owed money by Adam from the "proof" he posted. IMO

Just wanted to clarify proof IS NOT required on the BOI...

 

[Southern Wolf]

Keep it going, Deb. The more you post, the more you display what an ass your really are. I'm done with the back and forth, I have more important things to do with the rest of my afternoon. Take care!

Can you not see that Deb has some valid points? Me and her have went back and forth a time or two as well... but if she has valid points... Im more than willing to admit it.

It seems to me you are the one trying to bite everyone's head off when they post something as a valid point... just because you dont agree with it. Im all for sticking up for a buddy... but at some point in time... you have to take stock of the facts around you.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Mike,

It seems you also have a comprehension problem. Read my posts. I never defended him. I do take offense at the implication that because someone has financial issues or does a poor job communicating, it makes them a thief and a liar. It's not my place to call and demand that he do anything.

If I was to take 5 grand of your hard earned money... then not communicated with you... would you not think I was a thief?

 

[StrictlyExotics]

This is straight from the sticky thread Rich posted at the top of the BOI.....

"Proof is optional, but recommended if you would like to remove any doubts about the truth of what you are posting. But this is purely up to you, just as the believability of what you post is purely up to the reader of your words."

Andrew has removed any doubts I had that he is owed money by Adam from the "proof" he posted. IMO

Just wanted to clarify proof IS NOT required on the BOI...

Wes,

Thank you for pointing that out. I will no longer bring up proof as an issue anymore in the BOI. But, if thats all the proof you personally need, I am happy for you, one PDF file with 3 emails from March 2010 until now, 20 pages into a BOI thread doesnt tell me a whole lot.

Like I stated before, I dont doubt he owes the OP money. I just want to know what happened in the two years prior to the March 2010 email, especially when everyone is saying that he has owed him money for two years.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Wes,

Thank you for pointing that out. I will no longer bring up proof as an issue anymore in the BOI. But, if thats all the proof you personally need, I am happy for you, one PDF file with 3 emails from March 2010 until now, 20 pages into a BOI thread doesnt tell me a whole lot.

Like I stated before, I dont doubt he owes the OP money. I just want to know what happened in the two years prior to the March 2010 email, especially when everyone is saying that he has owed him money for two years.

The invoice is dated. Check it out. Adam has not denied this debt or timeline.

What I want to know is why the Andrew didn't do a charge back for any credit card transaction.

 

[StrictlyExotics]

The invoice is dated. Check it out. Adam has not denied this debt or timeline.

What I want to know is why the Andrew didn't do a charge back for any credit card transaction.

I understand that the invoice is dated but some things had to transpire from then until March 2010 as to why nothing took place. Again, I dont necessarily feel that the OP has any fault here.. I would just like to remove all doubt.

As for the chargeback, or reversal, it might be too long since the original transaction occured for that to have happened as well.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Its not proven that he has "debts". Maybe a debt, but I dont see how its plural. Again, the pied was NEVER paid in full and he wasnt in contact with the buyer of the pied.

Here is how I take it as plural.

#1 5k debt to the OP
#2 T-shirt paid for but never shipped
#3 Pied that was paid for (with the exception of last payment).

Now I know some wont consider the pied... and this is how IM looking at that one. IF it was you.... would you really send the last $200 payment if the seller wasnt returning your communications? I guarantee you I wouldnt. No way.. .no how!!! If you cant respond to me... then my mind will think you just skipped town with my money and the snake I have been paying for. Why in the world would I send you additional money? I would be a fool for doing that.

It wasnt until after the T-shirt was posted here that anything got done (which probably hasnt cleared the bank yet since it was an e-check)

It wasnt until after the pied was posted here that Adam made contact with that buyer. (I think I saw where they buyer was told to keep the last payment and the snake would be shipped)

How is this not multiple debts. Yes.... two may have been take care of (KEY words... being MAY HAVE BEEN)... becuase neither of those two have posted they have recieved what they have coming.

 

[StrictlyExotics]

Here is how I take it as plural.

#1 5k debt to the OP
#2 T-shirt paid for but never shipped
#3 Pied that was paid for (with the exception of last payment).

Now I know some wont consider the pied... and this is how IM looking at that one. IF it was you.... would you really send the last $200 payment if the seller wasnt returning your communications? I guarantee you I wouldnt. No way.. .no how!!! If you cant respond to me... then my mind will think you just skipped town with my money and the snake I have been paying for. Why in the world would I send you additional money? I would be a fool for doing that.

It wasnt until after the T-shirt was posted here that anything got done (which probably hasnt cleared the bank yet since it was an e-check)

It wasnt until after the pied was posted here that Adam made contact with that buyer. (I think I saw where they buyer was told to keep the last payment and the snake would be shipped)

How is this not multiple debts. Yes.... two may have been take care of (KEY words... being MAY HAVE BEEN)... becuase neither of those two have posted they have recieved what they have coming.

So Kevin, if I "partially" pay you for an animal are you indebted to me? Do I blame the purchaser of the pied regarding sending in the last payment, absolutely not. That was never my point as I never looked at that transaction as going south other than the communication part. Again, this person has stated nothing but positives in their dealings with Mr Wysocki as well.

As for the T-shirts, I understand the issues with e-checks as well as that he didnt get what he was purchasing. However, I look at that deal differently as it 1) is dealing with another organization (NatPet.org) not 8ball even though its the same entity (Mr Wysocki). Same as above regarding all the positives.

If you buy something from Wal Mart, you cannot take it back to Lowes or Sams Club even though its virtually the same company. I know its still dealing with the same person but one is pulically funded and trying to achieve 501c3 status and the other is for profit.

Im not defending the actions of Mr Wysocki whatsoever. I think his communications skills suck. I just disagree with the statement that he is a thief and/or a liar.

 

[kmurphy]

So Kevin, if I "partially" pay you for an animal are you indebted to me?

BTW - Different Kevin in case people get confused.

Dean, I agree that the pied transaction is not in the same league as the $5000 deal but to act like it was only partially paid for is a little disingenuous. The last payment was purposely held for 2 months because the seller could not be reached. Same complaint that's been going around.

 

[deborahbroadus]

So Kevin, if I "partially" pay you for an animal are you indebted to me? Do I blame the purchaser of the pied regarding sending in the last payment, absolutely not. That was never my point as I never looked at that transaction as going south other than the communication part. Again, this person has stated nothing but positives in their dealings with Mr Wysocki as well.

As for the T-shirts, I understand the issues with e-checks as well as that he didnt get what he was purchasing. However, I look at that deal differently as it 1) is dealing with another organization (NatPet.org) not 8ball even though its the same entity (Mr Wysocki). Same as above regarding all the positives.

If you buy something from Wal Mart, you cannot take it back to Lowes or Sams Club even though its virtually the same company. I know its still dealing with the same person but one is pulically funded and trying to achieve 501c3 status and the other is for profit.

Im not defending the actions of Mr Wysocki whatsoever. I think his communications skills suck. I just disagree with the statement that he is a thief and/or a liar.

Dean, your logic makes no sense (this is not sarcastic, this is me being logical).

Bluntly put: Buy a 5K snake from me (yes, I have one), I'll spend the money and not send the snake (forget the excuses they don't matter!!! This is WRONG is it not??) Do you have a pretty word for this action?

THEN, after you hunt me down, I'll make a promise (and then forget it because I have too many personal issues going on. But, I'm a good guy..I have a GGC, so my behavior doesn't really prove anything does it?? Do you have another pretty word for this action?

List of excuses I could use:

1. 14 year old nephew lost his battle to brain cancer
2. Lost my beloved pet
3. Just had my first grand daughter born!
4. I work 9 hour days and have a 6 (both ways) hour commute so don't have a lot of time to get on the forum or keep up with communications.
5. I sold my business and don't have money (forget I spent YOURS).
6. I am starting a new business with FREE money, but I don't have access to it (reaching a bit here..I admit it).

THE POINT IS: I should not have spent YOUR money. I did not provide the product. I made a promise/resolution, I did not keep it, and I ducked and didn't answer emails or attempt to contact you.

Now, I didn't attempt to contact you..but the brain is a marvelous tool...I know very well, I can't forget a debt of that magnitude,and the way the brain and conscience is set up, it is unlikely that anyone else could either. BUT they can make a conscious decision to not think about it.

For all your protestation that your are not defending him, it's coming across to me as defending..but that's just my opinion.

 

[Southern Wolf]

So Kevin, if I "partially" pay you for an animal are you indebted to me?

IF I drop the ball and your trying to contact me... and I dont respond.. then yes... I am indebted to you. I have your money... you have nothing but unanswered emails, phone calls, whatever.

Let me give you a scenerio.. and maybe you will see where Im coming from.

Last year I had serious computer problems... to the point I was down more than I was up. I ended up just buying a new one finally. During this time I quit advertising completely. NO ads placed anywhere because I knew I would have problems answering or responding. During this several month event (because I was trying to fix and rebuild my computer) I had someone place an order directly from my website. During this time I also had a sale locally. Three days after the order was placed I got my computer back online briefly and for whatever reason I checked my paypal account. I was quite shocked that there was money there... and Im thinking.... great... how long has it been.

Turns out that the order was placed three days prior for the same snake that had been sold locally. Due to my computer problems I couldnt update my website that it had been sold.

I immediately contacted the buyer and let her know what was going on. I appologized for the late contact and told her why. I offered her two choices since I didnt have the snake she had ordered. Either a full refund or if she wanted a similar male I would throw in a female of the same morph -- no charge and I appologized again.

Ya see Dean... I dropped the ball. My problems should not have been my buyers problems. I was actually surprised that she didnt contact me before I contacted her.

She opted for the pair, said she appreciated my honesty and my offer to make it right. She also told me that she was more than happy with our transaction.

The way I saw it... I was indebted to her because I had her money, but not the snake. I offered what I thought would make it right.

How many times is it that we all preach on here... dont spend the money till you have a happy customer. Well... Adam apparently spent that money... and he is indebted to his customers.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Being that Adam has responded to Andrew with a resolution that he finds satisfactory, I don't see a reason for the continued squabbling. Each reader will make up their own mind on whether or not they feel that Adam is someone safe to deal with.

I would hope that if Adam fails to make his payments Andrew will immediately post in this thread so that he isn't in the same situation for another 6 months as he waits for the return of his money.

 

[wes smith]

Wes,

Thank you for pointing that out. I will no longer bring up proof as an issue anymore in the BOI. But, if thats all the proof you personally need, I am happy for you, one PDF file with 3 emails from March 2010 until now, 20 pages into a BOI thread doesnt tell me a whole lot.

Like I stated before, I dont doubt he owes the OP money. I just want to know what happened in the two years prior to the March 2010 email, especially when everyone is saying that he has owed him money for two years.

Dean,
I wasn't trying to insinuate proof doesn't matter on the BOI (only that it's not a requirement) and Andrew has (granted it took a while) provided proof. I didn't really mean to direct my post at you specifically (I have read a couple post from different members stating proof was required in this thread), that's why I didn't quote you (just clarifying once again). I have posted on other threads where "how much proof" became an issue.

I guess the question now is "how much proof" we want to see. Although the "ins" and "outs" of this transaction are unclear a few details seem to have been cleared up....for me anyway.

1.) Was there ever a transaction to begin with?
-A. Yes, it appears (from the provided "proof") two transactions and one shipment were to take place.
2.) Has Andrew actually attempted contact with Adam?
-A. Yes, the two e-mails appear to be replies (subject: Re :Thanks for the reply on March 24th, 2010) & (subject: Re: Please get back to me on July 8, 2010) from Andrew to Adam.
3.) Has Adam admitted/acknowledged the debt owed to Andrew?
-A. Yes, in the last e-mail dated July 8th, Adam seems to admit a debt owed and wants to refund in 6 installments (1 payment month from the way I read).

Now I'm only going off the provided "proof" once again, that Adam acknowledged the debt on July 8th, 2010 via e-mail posted. How and why it got to this point doesn't really matter in my opinion, the OP wanted a resolution to their problem and it appears to have worked (OP originally wanted contact with Adam & appears to have gotten said contact)....I say good job once again BOI JMO

 

[Skiploder]

I get that people have done business with Adam in the past and are keen to defend him, but in the process they are turing a blind eye to a person who has been out $5K for over two years now.

That's unacceptable. To try to continue to find holes in the OP's story or try to excuse away the inexcusable is pathetic.

Bottom line - the OP is still out $5K + interest. People need to stop acting like this has some sort of happy resolution. Until all of his money is returned, this is far from over.

 

[StrictlyExotics]

BTW - Different Kevin in case people get confused.

Dean, I agree that the pied transaction is not in the same league as the $5000 deal but to act like it was only partially paid for is a little disingenuous. The last payment was purposely held for 2 months because the seller could not be reached. Same complaint that's been going around.

Hey Kevin,

I dont take it personally if you quoted me or not. I only quoted you because I, like you have a similiar stance on the issue at hand. The way I see it though, if he was in fact having personal problems like whats been stated, maybe he wasnt able to communicate for the last couple of months. Thats all I was trying to point out. If he was legitmately trying to be a bad guy here and money was the primary issue, why wouldnt he collect the 200.00 and walk away then. Thats all I am getting at.

Dean, your logic makes no sense (this is not sarcastic, this is me being logical).

Bluntly put: Buy a 5K snake from me (yes, I have one), I'll spend the money and not send the snake (forget the excuses they don't matter!!! This is WRONG is it not??) Do you have a pretty word for this action?

THEN, after you hunt me down, I'll make a promise (and then forget it because I have too many personal issues going on. But, I'm a good guy..I have a GGC, so my behavior doesn't really prove anything does it?? Do you have another pretty word for this action?

List of excuses I could use:

1. 14 year old nephew lost his battle to brain cancer
2. Lost my beloved pet
3. Just had my first grand daughter born!
4. I work 9 hour days and have a 6 (both ways) hour commute so don't have a lot of time to get on the forum or keep up with communications.
5. I sold my business and don't have money (forget I spent YOURS).
6. I am starting a new business with FREE money, but I don't have access to it (reaching a bit here..I admit it).

THE POINT IS: I should not have spent YOUR money. I did not provide the product. I made a promise/resolution, I did not keep it, and I ducked and didn't answer emails or attempt to contact you.

Now, I didn't attempt to contact you..but the brain is a marvelous tool...I know very well, I can't forget a debt of that magnitude,and the way the brain and conscience is set up, it is unlikely that anyone else could either. BUT they can make a conscious decision to not think about it.

For all your protestation that your are not defending him, it's coming across to me as defending..but that's just my opinion.

The point that I am trying to make is that it seems as though that they were in contact with each other until March 2010. In my opinion, this doesnt make it a 2 year issue but more of a 3 month issue.

Is the seller wrong for losing contact with his customers, sure. But, we arent talking about 2 years without contact, just a few months. If he was having some serious issues, moreso than what Kevin B states below, then why would we be so quick to judge, and so harshly. Afterall, this transaction has been going on for two years.

The thing that I would like to know is whats been going on for the two years prior to the end result of the March 2010 email stating that all the OP wants at this time is a refund. Did it honestly take two years to figure this out?

I am with you in regards to spending the money prior to shipping out animals.

IF I drop the ball and your trying to contact me... and I dont respond.. then yes... I am indebted to you. I have your money... you have nothing but unanswered emails, phone calls, whatever.

Let me give you a scenerio.. and maybe you will see where Im coming from.

Last year I had serious computer problems... to the point I was down more than I was up. I ended up just buying a new one finally. During this time I quit advertising completely. NO ads placed anywhere because I knew I would have problems answering or responding. During this several month event (because I was trying to fix and rebuild my computer) I had someone place an order directly from my website. During this time I also had a sale locally. Three days after the order was placed I got my computer back online briefly and for whatever reason I checked my paypal account. I was quite shocked that there was money there... and Im thinking.... great... how long has it been.

Turns out that the order was placed three days prior for the same snake that had been sold locally. Due to my computer problems I couldnt update my website that it had been sold.

I immediately contacted the buyer and let her know what was going on. I appologized for the late contact and told her why. I offered her two choices since I didnt have the snake she had ordered. Either a full refund or if she wanted a similar male I would throw in a female of the same morph -- no charge and I appologized again.

Ya see Dean... I dropped the ball. My problems should not have been my buyers problems. I was actually surprised that she didnt contact me before I contacted her.

She opted for the pair, said she appreciated my honesty and my offer to make it right. She also told me that she was more than happy with our transaction.

The way I saw it... I was indebted to her because I had her money, but not the snake. I offered what I thought would make it right.

How many times is it that we all preach on here... dont spend the money till you have a happy customer. Well... Adam apparently spent that money... and he is indebted to his customers.

Kevin B...

Sort of a different deal dont you think? You were in fact paid in full for something you no longer had. What you offered was only fair. As for the pied, I dont see that he, the accused, is indebted until he is paid in full.

As for the OPs 5000.00, thats being indebted to someone, if he was paid in full. At this point, I dont know if a deal was completed because I didnt go to the other forum to read their threads. If it was paid in full and the buyer decided to back out for his own reasoning, I do agree that the OP is entitled to a refund, minus deposits (unless its the sellers fault, of course).

You have to remember, I havent read the other threads because I thought all the proof should have been posted here.

Dean,
I wasn't trying to insinuate proof doesn't matter on the BOI (only that it's not a requirement) and Andrew has (granted it took a while) provided proof. I didn't really mean to direct my post at you specifically (I have read a couple post from different members stating proof was required in this thread), that's why I didn't quote you (just clarifying once again). I have posted on other threads where "how much proof" became an issue.

I guess the question now is "how much proof" we want to see. Although the "ins" and "outs" of this transaction are unclear a few details seem to have been cleared up....for me anyway.

1.) Was there ever a transaction to begin with?
-A. Yes, it appears (from the provided "proof") two transactions and one shipment were to take place.
2.) Has Andrew actually attempted contact with Adam?
-A. Yes, the two e-mails appear to be replies (subject: Re :Thanks for the reply on March 24th, 2010) & (subject: Re: Please get back to me on July 8, 2010) from Andrew to Adam.
3.) Has Adam admitted/acknowledged the debt owed to Andrew?
-A. Yes, in the last e-mail dated July 8th, Adam seems to admit a debt owed and wants to refund in 6 installments (1 payment month from the way I read).

Now I'm only going off the provided "proof" once again, that Adam acknowledged the debt on July 8th, 2010 via e-mail posted. How and why it got to this point doesn't really matter in my opinion, the OP wanted a resolution to their problem and it appears to have worked (OP originally wanted contact with Adam & appears to have gotten said contact)....I say good job once again BOI JMO

No problems Wes. Based on what little proof has been posted, I am somewhat in agreement with you. I guess I looked at the BOI as a lawsuit, until now. I was in agreement that the OP was owed some money but I didnt want to have to go elsewhere for my information. If the OP backed out and someones TOS stated a certain amount was non-refundable, thats where I was if you know what I mean. I wasnt sure if there had been money spent on Cites permits, expenses, etc...

 

[StrictlyExotics]

I get that people have done business with Adam in the past and are keen to defend him, but in the process they are turing a blind eye to a person who has been out $5K for over two years now.

That's unacceptable. To try to continue to find holes in the OP's story or try to excuse away the inexcusable is pathetic.

Bottom line - the OP is still out $5K + interest. People need to stop acting like this has some sort of happy resolution. Until all of his money is returned, this is far from over.

Craig, if you are referring to me, I have never done business with him and I dont even know who the guy is. All I am getting at is where is the information to what happened from 2008 until March 2010.

I want to know where the OPs standpoint was during that time. As far as I am concerned, it seemed to me that the OP was fine with everything going on until March 2010 when he asked for a refund.