Adenovirus Questions

[shadi11]

I tested my 5.. all of which came back positive. I made all the breeders aware of the testing and it should be done.

 

[Denisebme]

Has everyone that said they where going to test there dragons done so

and then just forgot to post the results

I was just wondering b/c they should be breeding soon if not already

I tested all 15 of mine, PCR testing was the route I chose. My breeders from last year, Trex and Anya, both tested Negative.
My planned Pairs for this year are as follows:
Kahli (Chris Allen Redx Redflame) X Percy (Chris Allen red), both Negative.
Tinkerbelle (Chris Allen Red x Redflame) x Rocky (Cawley red+Hypo Red x Flaming Tiger), Both Negative.

Anya also tested negative, as did Pheonix, Sandy and Astraea. We are unsure at this time if any of these dragons will be paired this year, depending on the market.

Scheduled to enter our breeding program next year are Hera, Elle, and Daphne, all are negative.

We had one positive come back, for Izzy, and she has been placed in a home where there are no other dragons.
We adopted out 2 dragons last year because they were not a good fit for our breeding program because of size and color quality issues, and we just paid to have both of these animals tested as well, but we don't have the results back yet, but they seem to be doing well.

 

[walker75]

Thank You all for replying to my question on the testing.

I thank you for coming public with this and your results.

Every breeder results matters and so does the customers results.

please test breeders or pet hobbyist

 

[Denisebme]

Thank You all for replying to my question on the testing.

I thank you for coming public with this and your results.

Every breeder results matters and so does the customers results.

please test breeders or pet hobbyist

I thank you for requesting that breeders come forward with test results.

I've been fielding questions for the last few days about what PCR testing is, and what the difference between PCR and Fecal testing is. I'm no expert, but I've done a bit of research, and I can only give my impressions, so here they are.
Fecal testing, IMHO, is simply not accurate enough for me. That is obviously a personal opinion, but here is my reasoning; False negatives are not that uncommon with fecal testing, and most of the false negatives could be simply the person collecting the samples being unfamiliar or not clear on how important timing is when doing these tests. It's critical, a sample that is to old when it is fixed is simply not going to be accurate. Keep in mind that everything I have been told is that the ONLY risk is a false negative, false positives don't happen, so if your dragon is shedding the virus they are absolutely positive.
PCR testing is different, its a pretty straight forward blood test and a swab of the interior of the vent (Cloacal). Its pretty much the same procedure used for DNA draws.
Personally, I would not trust the fecal swabs for my own dragons, but for others more comfortable with the procedure, go for it.
I'm also a bit concerned that negative test results might be able to be manipulated by simply leaving the samples intentionally to long before fixing them. I would hope that no one would do this, but I've seen so much resistance to testing in general on this forum that I am concerned.

I know that some breeders have financial concerns here. I'm a hobbyist who does limited breeding, but I am and always will be a hobbyist first. I love my babies, they are family members, and their health and security will always be my first concern.

 

[walker75]

I thank you for requesting that breeders come forward with test results.

I've been fielding questions for the last few days about what PCR testing is, and what the difference between PCR and Fecal testing is. I'm no expert, but I've done a bit of research, and I can only give my impressions, so here they are.
Fecal testing, IMHO, is simply not accurate enough for me. That is obviously a personal opinion, but here is my reasoning; False negatives are not that uncommon with fecal testing, and most of the false negatives could be simply the person collecting the samples being unfamiliar or not clear on how important timing is when doing these tests. It's critical, a sample that is to old when it is fixed is simply not going to be accurate. Keep in mind that everything I have been told is that the ONLY risk is a false negative, false positives don't happen, so if your dragon is shedding the virus they are absolutely positive.
PCR testing is different, its a pretty straight forward blood test and a swab of the interior of the vent (Cloacal). Its pretty much the same procedure used for DNA draws.
Personally, I would not trust the fecal swabs for my own dragons, but for others more comfortable with the procedure, go for it.
I'm also a bit concerned that negative test results might be able to be manipulated by simply leaving the samples intentionally to long before fixing them. I would hope that no one would do this, but I've seen so much resistance to testing in general on this forum that I am concerned.

I know that some breeders have financial concerns here. I'm a hobbyist who does limited breeding, but I am and always will be a hobbyist first. I love my babies, they are family members, and their health and security will always be my first concern.

Thank You for having explained the differences in these types of tests and why you and others have chosen to submit the results of these tests.

I also am aware of the financial concerns here b/c

You and Others that have came forward are hobbyist, pet parents or wanting limited breeding projects having hearty,healthy stock

You have are paying the price for what others have done before you and ARE still silent.. they are still arguing and blowing big smoke clouds

It has come out of your own hard earned money not profits coming from the sales of ANY Adenovirus Positive Dragons

It has cost hundreds or thousands I Bet in some unexpected vet bills or expenses

And you have chosen to close your colony and keep as pets

In my opinion you where lied to

Everyone has been deceived and at a huge personal price.

They knew they had Adeno Positive Dragons and they still sold them....

I could name a few that I feel are Bearded Dragon Mills and have dumped this on the public..

And still do.... they truly do not care

and this is what they do for a living



I thank you all for caring enough to bring this Public and Please continue to do so

It does matter

 

[walker75]

I am truly sorry for all the heartache you are all experiencing and the lost sleep and stress that this has cost you personally,

I Hope that as Positive Adeno Dragon owners we can now put all of our experience and knowledge toward something positive like stopping this and also making sure they get the best care we can give them for as long as we get to have them

 

[Denisebme]

In my case, I've spent about $1400 on testing. Add that to my cricket bill and husbandry supplies, and there is no way I can break even this year. That's not what its about to me.
All the finger pointing on this is driving me a little bit crazy. IMO, the only concern I have is where we, as a community, go from here. We know this is an issue, how big an issue can be debated if people feel it necessary to do that, but we can see by the sheer volume of positive results and the high price that some have paid, that its real and its here and we have to deal with it.

Thank You for having explained the differences in these types of tests and why you and others have chosen to submit the results of these tests.

I also am aware of the financial concerns here b/c

You and Others that have came forward are hobbyist, pet parents or wanting limited breeding projects having hearty,healthy stock

You have are paying the price for what others have done before you and ARE still silent.. they are still arguing and blowing big smoke clouds

It has come out of your own hard earned money not profits coming from the sales of ANY Adenovirus Positive Dragons

It has cost hundreds or thousands I Bet in some unexpected vet bills or expenses

And you have chosen to close your colony and keep as pets

In my opinion you where lied to

Everyone has been deceived and at a huge personal price.

They knew they had Adeno Positive Dragons and they still sold them....

I could name a few that I feel are Bearded Dragon Mills and have dumped this on the public..

And still do.... they truly do not care

and this is what they do for a living



I thank you all for caring enough to bring this Public and Please continue to do so

It does matter

 

[Lguy598]

After reading this post and the other on the subject, I am truly sorry to those who have been effected by this. I know it will break my heart if any of my dragons are positive(all of which are be tested on friday).
I also apologize if I have missed this question and response but I wanted to know if Adeno can be contracted by other species of reptiles in my collection?

Drew

 

[shadi11]

each reptile species have their own. as far as my research shows it cant cross species. unless the reptile/animal or fecal matter is injested. and i dont think that will be happening.
Let us know how your testing goes. Good luck

 

[Bar None Reptiles]

I thank you for requesting that breeders come forward with test results.

I've been fielding questions for the last few days about what PCR testing is, and what the difference between PCR and Fecal testing is. I'm no expert, but I've done a bit of research, and I can only give my impressions, so here they are.
Fecal testing, IMHO, is simply not accurate enough for me. That is obviously a personal opinion, but here is my reasoning; False negatives are not that uncommon with fecal testing, and most of the false negatives could be simply the person collecting the samples being unfamiliar or not clear on how important timing is when doing these tests. It's critical, a sample that is to old when it is fixed is simply not going to be accurate. Keep in mind that everything I have been told is that the ONLY risk is a false negative, false positives don't happen, so if your dragon is shedding the virus they are absolutely positive.
PCR testing is different, its a pretty straight forward blood test and a swab of the interior of the vent (Cloacal). Its pretty much the same procedure used for DNA draws.
Personally, I would not trust the fecal swabs for my own dragons, but for others more comfortable with the procedure, go for it.
I'm also a bit concerned that negative test results might be able to be manipulated by simply leaving the samples intentionally to long before fixing them. I would hope that no one would do this, but I've seen so much resistance to testing in general on this forum that I am concerned.

I know that some breeders have financial concerns here. I'm a hobbyist who does limited breeding, but I am and always will be a hobbyist first. I love my babies, they are family members, and their health and security will always be my first concern.

SO which option did you use? I have looked all over the US for a lab that will process a blood sample and cloacal swab and none exist, that I have found. California Avian the vet didn't specify which species the sample was being collected for, they assumed it would be avian, so when I went to get the blood drawn at the vet, she sent me home cuz we could not use that lab. Next she tried down in Florida, no luck there, only fecal being done. So who all is using blood as a test? I have a dragon that it is being nearly impossible to get a sample on him. He hasn't been trained to go in the water like the older ones. He is only like 8 or 9 months old now and this is not proving to be easy. My vet has been going nuts trying to find someone who will do it, but we are having no luck. This guy needs to be tested because of where he came from.

 

[mikey]

I doubt you will get a answer from her, if you go back and reread all her posts they don't add up. She states it is easy to find a lab to test blood PCR.

some examples:

My second decision was to retest my 4 existing core breeders, as well as the rest of my animals at that time, and to use the Lab at the University of Illinois for the testing. If by chance one of my animals does test positive, I want it to be a benefit to our community, and right now, that Lab seems to be the place to get it done if the end goal is research into this disease.


The one thing I heard over and over from people was to contact Dr. Jacobson. I know that other people heard the same thing I did, got the same replies, and after you hear it 20 times, it doesn't take long to figure out that the guy to go to on this issue is Dr. Jacobson.
Then, I got an email from Dr. Jacobson on what tests were accurate, called my vet to see if she could handle the tests, and she could, at least the PCR testing which is sent out to a lab, and then I got tested.

What I can tell you is that in my experience, finding someone that knows a lot about Adenovirus may be difficult. Finding someone with the ability to do the PCR testing for it isn't.

the PCR testing has to be done through your vet, if they have the testing avaliable, or you can contact Dr. Jacobson for a kit to take to your vet for the swab and the draw (Its a blood test). If I remember correctly, the tests are $65 from Dr. Jacobson, or whatever your vet and lab charges are.

 

[mikey]

This post is from bearded dragon.org from the infectious diseases section..good reading.

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/viewforum.php?f=61


But, you did not PCR test your dragons. You EM tested them.

Florida would like everyone to know they do not do blood PCR and they are upset over this misinformation, Dr. Stacey or Jacobson will speak with anyone who wishes to question them about the validity of her statement XXXXXXXXXXXXX [admin: phone number removed. I seriously doubt they care to have a flood of calls. If they want that contact info provided, THEY can post it.]

Dr. Stacey said you did not submit any samples, he does not have your phone number and you will not call him.

We do not have 11 negatives in the country as of 3/27/07 after retesting of the negatives, the numbers are dwindling Chastity and when the statistics come out next week it will show that you did not have 11 dragons test negative by PCR at his lab and his lab is the only one that does the PCR. The people with the small number of resulting negatives are going to be able to be verified with a phone call to the lab.

Florida does not do blood PCR /swab end of story. They dont offer it anywhere in the country. It has not been done. You did not test your dragons by PCR blood and neither did Denise. You did not even test them by fecal PCR, you did not PCR test them period. People are calling the lab about your statments and Dr. Stacey has told them the truth and they are bewildered beyond belief.

In the EM testings, the statistics is 3 out of 4 dragons positive..... 162 positive and 63 negative. Out of your 11 submissions all 11 were negative..not even a rare viral particle seen or occasional....all 11 no viral seen, you were the only person to accomplish that. That defies the law of 3 out of 4 ( closer 72%)...anyone, anyone can see this is not possible anyone that knows how to work percentages and statistics. 11 out of 11 has not tested negative by EM only yours out of 225 dragons tested....only you accomplished a 100% negative rate on all submissions.

 

[Bar None Reptiles]

the PCR testing has to be done through your vet, if they have the testing avaliable, or you can contact Dr. Jacobson for a kit to take to your vet for the swab and the draw (Its a blood test). If I remember correctly, the tests are $65 from Dr. Jacobson, or whatever your vet and lab charges are.

My vet did contact them, they only do the fecal test. NO cloacal swab, no blood draw. They have very strict procedures as to how to handle the sample and how fast and fresh it needs to be. Still the problem arises in that I CANNOT get a fecal sample. Someone on here has claimed to do a blood test. I want to know the name of the lab, as my vet has attempted to contact every lab she knows of in this country and no one will process blood tests. We decided to use LouAnn in Illinois because it was cheaper but even still it does not isolate the species specific strain of adenovirus in her testing method. I have several different species of animals, dogs, cats, birds, reptiles, me.. so I am looking for that method that people have used aside from fecal PCR to test this particular dragon. Like I said because of where he came from, there is a good chance. I want it to be 100% accurate first time tested without a doubt. He has been in quarantine and will remain that way reguardless of if he tests negative or not. It's real easy since he is a male so there is no way I would be wanting to use him this young anyway, but someday I did plan on using him. I have no other reason whatsoever to think he has this virus aside from his heritage. But I certainly won't ever use him unless I can get some answers on paper in my hand thru multiple accurate tests. All I need is the name of the lab those persons have used. I will pass that onto my vet and she will do the work from there. California Avian is out, Jacobson is out, U of IL is out. WHo else is there? Someone used some place, I just need to know where it is. I am desparate here. Gimme a state at least to look at, something. If you don't trust me with the actual lab, at least drop the state to look in. I don't want anyone's personal info or test results, I don't care about the drama, I just need a lab.

 

[mikey]

This is denise's whole post from 1-26-2007, 08:14pm

The PCR testing has to be done through your vet, if they have the testing avaliable, or you can contact Dr. Jacobson for a kit to take to your vet for the swab and the draw (Its a blood test). If I remember correctly, the tests are $65 from Dr. Jacobson, or whatever your vet and lab charges are.
There are a few real differences between the tests. PCR testing is handled like any other blood test. The fecal testing requires very specific handling in order for the test to be reliable, and, at least for me, with incorrect sanitation if you have multiple dragons being tested, you can actually accidently cross contaminate your samples. I didn't want to risk false positive or false negative readings, I didn't want to wait weeks for the test results, and I didn't want to second guess the results, so I went for the more sensative test, and that is PCR. I also found that here in California, its much easier to find someone who can accurately handle the PCR test.
I know that for most people, cost is a big issue. It was for me, I had 15 dragons I needed to test as quickly as possible. The fecal testing is less expensive. My concern was accuracy.

I guess you will have to ask Denise where she got the test done, it seems to not exist according to other's.

Posted on beardeddragon.org
" Florida does not do blood PCR /swab end of story. They dont offer it anywhere in the country. It has not been done. You did not test your dragons by PCR blood and neither did Denise. "

 

[Bar None Reptiles]

OK, I could not remember who it was that had those tests done. My head is killing me today more than usual so looking thru the pasts posts on some of the longer threads was just not possible for me. But the only lab I know of in CA is California Avian, they do test for AVIAN adenovirus, but not reptile. That is where my vet got mixed up as she deals with alot of birds as well, which is also why I came here to correct that statement I made a long time ago. Which I should have done sooner, but I forgot I posted that. But I went there in Jan. and she could not use them, thought she had it lined up for FL, but when she double checked before she drew the blood, that was a no go also. Was Denise the only one who had the tests done thru blood? Who else has had it done that way? If so drop me a name of the lab that will do it please.

 

[draggintails]

Chastity said that she had her blood PCR/cloacal swab test done from the University of FL in Dr. Jacobson's lab. Dr. Stacey who works under Dr. Jacobson confirmed that this test is not performed there on Wednesday 3/28/07.

Another poster made a post earlier that they had blood PCR/ cloacal swab done through their vet : Studio City Animal Hospital. Dr. Flannigan from Studio City Animal Hospital said on Thursday 3/29/07 that he had exhausted efforts to find a lab that will do this "obscure test" and if Univeristy of IL does not offer this then he does not know who would.

There are a few breeders wanting the blood test and they are looking around for it. This test is not available for bearded dragons. Why don't you put that dragon in a sink of warm water...he should go in the warm water. Then send the feces for PCR testing to Florida. A blood test is not the way to go, even if it existed for dragons, go read a post from a biologist who develops these testing methods on another thread. Just get him to poo one way or another, you have no other source for testing.

 

[Bar None Reptiles]

NO offense, and not trying to sound like a snob, but if he hasn't pooped in the water in the 8 months I have had him, 4 of which I have been trying specifically to do this, then he is not going to suddenly do it now either. It's just NOT going to happen. And as of January 2007, Florida does not do the test. I went into my vet office to have the blood drawn after she incorrectly told me about this test in December. She didn't specify reptile and not avian sample being submitted for adeno so CA Avian just assumed she meant avian. No big deal. So I got sent home because she didn't have her notes with her that day, she forgot I was coming. 3 days later she called me because I was rescheduled to try again and told me not to bring the dragon, no one would do the blood tests anywhere. She contacted Dr. Jacobson herself and confirmed this in January. It's not like I have sat here doing nothing in the mean time waiting. But if it hasn't happened by now, it just isn't going to. But thanks for the concern. Really not trying to come off rude.

 

[draggintails]

No problem, didnt remember if you tried the sink thing. Blood test would be great on an animal like this that is uncooperative...don't know what to tell you. We only have fecal tests right now, so I think you are stuck trying to get him to poo. He sounds like he is frustrating you terribly.

 

[Bar None Reptiles]

Frustrated is an under statement with this guy. But can't think of a better word to use, aside from 4 letter ones, but that doesn't do much good either. I'm not going to stop trying by any means. But he likes to go in his cage when I am not around, then he takes his paper and uses it to cover it up, like a kitty does. Put no paper in there and he just runs thru it and it gets everywhere. I am 99% positive that he has it, but I just want to see it on paper either way. It's just unfortunate because he appears healthy, vibrant, voracious appetite, good growth rate. Nothing outwardly says he has it. But that is how it works, even the healthy ones can get it. I went thru 5 months of waiting and problems to get him, it'd just be nice to put all this to an end and know for certain.

 

[mikey]

Chastity said that she had her blood PCR/cloacal swab test done from the University of FL in Dr. Jacobson's lab. Dr. Stacey who works under Dr. Jacobson confirmed that this test is not performed there on Wednesday 3/28/07.

Another poster made a post earlier that they had blood PCR/ cloacal swab done through their vet : Studio City Animal Hospital. Dr. Flannigan from Studio City Animal Hospital said on Thursday 3/29/07 that he had exhausted efforts to find a lab that will do this "obscure test" and if Univeristy of IL does not offer this then he does not know who would.

Looks like Chastity did not even do the EM testing per Lou Ann today. Here's a link to the whole thread. So the only two people claiming to have negative results are starting to be called out. I think it is just a matter of time for Denise to be proven she did not test BLOOD PCR either.

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/viewtopic.php?t=49918


Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:03 am** *Post subject: Dragon results



Dear Chasity,


Would you please contact me privately off board at [email protected]


I can not find these results, actually, I don't even have a fax machine to fax with, nor have I faxed anyone at all in about 2 years.


Lou Ann
_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lou Ann Miller, MT(ASCP)
Service Supervisor
Center for Microscopic Imaging
College of Veterinary Medicine
Rm 1204 VMBSB
2001 S Lincoln Ave
Urbana, IL 61802