Adenovirus Questions

[Valley Dragons]

I have spoken purely from my experience. I do whole heartedly believe that the portion of failure to thrives was as a result of adenovirus issues. I bred Herbie and Tiger Lily my first season. They were all large and healthy. Even the smaller ones were larger than others I saw for sale that were the same age. Out of a clutch I had maybe one or two like that. Tiger Lily laid 3 clutches in 2005.

Now, let's go to 2006. I again bred Herbie and Tiger Lily. The first clutch started out fine. I also bred Clyde (positive for adeno) with Maggie. By her second clutch I started to lose babies at about 2 1/2 weeks. It then started to happen to my orange babies (which under the same conditions did fantastic the season before) at 6 weeks. After all of the deaths, it was split pretty evenly between babies that grew and appeared normal and babies that were EXTREMELY underweight and just tiny. All of my bins tested positive for adenovirus via fecal EM. I also had two necropsies performed that listed the cause of death as adenovirus in bearded dragons.

I may not have "years of experience" under my belt. But I learned absolutely everything I could before breeding and carefully chose my breeding stock. I provided good husbandry and these babies were well cared for. Tiger Lily was a little over 2 1/2 years for last years clutches and Maggie was almost 2.

I do believe a little common sense goes a long way. I had three extremes in one clutch, deaths, extreme non thrivers (I would not even consider these runts) and normal appearing dragons. They were all kept under the same husbandry. One common factor in all 3 groups is adenovirus positive results. I absolutely believe it was a factor for all three groups, including the non thirvers. I was fortunate to have very healthy large parents and their offspring from the first season is a testament to that. This is why I KNEW something was wrong when the first baby died. I did not have any deaths in season one, so this put up a red flag for me.

Because of the sheer number of dragons you breed, it makes sense you would see more runts. That does not mean that others breeding small numbers will have the same experience. I am not going to sit back and let you belittle me because I have not been breeding and have "years of experience under my belt." I know what I know and witnessed first hand what this did to each clutch. I believe the virus contributed to the issues with the babies and for you to make that comment seems pretty arrogant to me. I am strictly speaking from my experience. You were not there, you did not see the babies wasting away overnight. You were not in my shoes and can't possibly make a judgement that I do not have enough experience to share what I observed first hand.

Just out of curiosity - and you probably have already stated this in one of the numerous past posts, so be patient with me - who was the vet that decided that the cause of death of your babies was from adenovirus? And also, what other viruses, diseases, bacteria, etc. did this vet test for before he made his diagnoses? I just want to make sure that this vet was not over-eager to jump on the "adenovirus bandwagon". If the vast majority of the dragon population carries this virus, then the obvious conclusion in my mind would be that the majority of the dragon population is - *gasp* thriving while carrying this virus. So...it seems to me that it is a possibility that these babies could have died from something other than adenovirus. If it were me, I would want to know the definite casue of death beyond a shadow of a doubt. Right now the "adenovirus is a plague" argument leaves much to doubt.
We need a broader range of testing done on these dragons before we can draw conclusions about the lethality of this virus in dragons.

Jamie

 

[CheriS]

Tammy,

You told me your original colony from your father, who I know was a name that was a respected breeder and had well cared for dragons for many years, was negative. That when you tried to add in other dragons this year you bought from some "top line breeders", I think it was 12, that 11 of those tested positive and I am pretty sure I have read that also online. Was that incorrect or do I have the information wrong?

If it is incorrent please clear that up now with me... if not, does this not tell you something? If dragons that were not around other dragons for a few years (so in a closed colony) were clear and the positive you got were showing in new dragons brought in the past year. If this is correct, it should tell you that this has spread SINCE your father established his colony or within the past few years. Please do not be taken in by others and start mixing your dragons, you are among a handful of people I know that has some older clear lines that can be a real value to this species in the US.

Yes, we should question the researchers and vets doing test, ALL OF THEM, we should question their controls to know they are accurate. How can you know a positive is really a potgentially harmful positive if you do not know the control was truly positive with a sample from an animal that died as a result of adenovirus and not a sample from a possible benign strain that will never harm anyone? It has been said there may be more than one strain, and some may be benign, correct? What if the control is a benign strain? Will that make a difference?

We should question what a positive really means, all the ranges that a positive can mean. So many have missed something that is EXTREMELY important already. There are some serious unanswered questions out there that can and have been answered by some of those doing tests, that people never knew..... but there are others that need to be answered also. People need to know the whole picture, not just part of it.

A positive on the fecal EM does not mean a bearded dragon has the adenovirus that can be destructive to bearded dragons, it is NOT compared to any control (proven or otherwise) to confirm it is the adenovirus that *can* be destructive to bearded dragons!! They may have another species cells or particles passing though them from ingesting something in their environment and it can not infect them......... NOT them infected with even a reptilian adenovirus, let alone one that can be destructive to bearded dragons if there is more than one strain and others are not harmful. They may have human ones, canine ones, feline ones or avian ones they have ingested and are passing through them. They may have human ones from children or you or Juan Valdez as he picked the greens and coughed over them or the grocery store clerk or cashier who sneezed in their hands and then touched the greens or veggies. Yes, we need to ask questions, yes, until those questions are answered I am suspect of any positive from otherwise healthy appearing bearded dragons or colonies that have had no die offs associated with adenovirus. Questions, some answer, some unanswered, but still questions we should ask. Some times people have to spend so much time defending themselves from the crap, pulled out of the air, the big picture is missed.

How many people reading any of these or hearing about adenovirus from others was told or aware that fecal EM only detects adenoviral cells, it does not confirm or gauge against a control that it is Bearded Dragons adenovirus or even reptilian in nature?? That is a BIG PICTURE matter that is ignored

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Vicki, I am stating from my experience this seemed to be the case. I am not speaking for everyone. Whether it was directed specifically at me or not, my specific situation fell within your statement, so I responded. I know that not all dragons failing to thrive is adeno related and there are failure to thrive for other reasons. But in my case, I do believe it was directly related to them having adenovirus. That was my experience.

Valley Dragons- It was not a vet that said adenovirus was a cause of death, but the state lab that performed the necropsies. They did advanced studies on the livers of the babies. I do believe that there was a small amount of trichonomas found in one stool sample, but my vet said it would not make a difference. Of all the bins I tested only two came back with corona like particles in addition to adeno like particles. I submitted roughly 50 bin samples.

So, does adenovirus allow other opportunistic bacteria, virus and parasites to infect a dragon? Probably, but by the same token, if they did not have adenovirus to begin with, would it have the same impact on their system? I doubt it.

I know I have made "numerous posts", but this is important and if I have to keep going back and forth so be it. I am not breeding anymore, but I still feel this is worth bringing attention to. I am not the only breeder that has had babies die. When I had my necropsies done I told the vet that my colony was large and healthy and I did not believe it was adenovirus. I was wrong. You can *gasp* all you want, but it will be interesting to see where this is in 5 years. I do not believe that the majority of dragons had this 5 or 10 years ago. So, how was it spread to such a large number of dragons? Should we just say forget it and let the ones that survive live and hope they build an immunity to it? There is no guarantee that will ever happen. If two adeno positive dragons are bred there is a chance that the babies can become infected and some may die. I do not think it is o.k. at all, but that is just my opinion.

 

[Dachiu]

I am happy that there is an opportunity for further study of the fecal samples being submitted. My hope is that those which test positive for adenovirus on an EM will go on to the PCR for further identification and classification. Even if studies are not being actively performed at this time - the data can still be processed and documented for future use. I understand that there are time & funding constraints and priorities to consider when it comes to a research project of this magnitude and I am not presuming that Dr. Jacobson and his team are even willing to do the studies.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89703

Cheri, did we miss something here? You are now saying what we stated in November... and acting like it is headline news.

 

[JimD]

Kinda looks like plagerism.
Jim

 

[Dachiu]

I just wanted to post this information that was forwarded from JimD. His veterinarian from Calgary Avian and Exotic Pet Clinic took time to do some research and offer this information.

 

[draggintails]

No need for the angry face...do look at the date on that email..things change rapidly as I have explained on a public forum recently. Your information on the date of that email was correct.

Right, I purchased dragons from 12 breeders, the total positives now on those 12 dragons are 12...that citrus subadult did test positive.

We did not put these animals in our colony..they were in quarantine.

So, they did not mingle with the dragons we already had. We began testing dragons we already had after this, shortly after this....What came back neg initially were not just pops but a few other dragons from a few from other breeders from CA, PA and NJ as I mentioned in my email to you months ago... and everything else tested was positive, we did have animals we bred ourselves go positive. I emailed you months ago that some are not remaining negative too, I had to call the people who bought babies from 2006 from these...I emailed this to you and you told me you were sorry to hear this...so dont forget about that email there...it is now April and things change quick. .....so after it is all said and done we have a few dragons that did not shed viral cells when we pulled thier fecal..that is how I am going to word this because I am so disgusted.

The dragons that were negative can go positive real quick on you...I think I told you I had to go throw out eggs..not only that but had to pull up all my paypals and get email address contacting those people that bought babies from those guys last year..the what all...it was disgusting. All contacted says the babies are huge and fine though.

So, I don't think I spread this to my guys,with those 12, I think AV was here, brought it in a year or two ago or it was here always...still I should have seen some ick happen with the progeny...they were good. It is unrealistic to think otherwise...I was really carefull and wear gloves there in the quarantine..different room. I just can't blame those newbies on our dragons coming with positive tests, a few of those breeders of newbies were downright surprised..they never had problems.

I don't know but somebody needs to get to the bottom of this. Other people saying they had negative tests on most of their animals and such ....no way man.....some told you this and they were not forthright...so I thought I was different, I was the one with positive animals coming back and most everyone else was clear, all of those people that lied about testing..you put people in position of making choices.....but we never had a problem, not ever.

We did do some EM test and retest...even did one pos PCR that was neg on EM and a few baby bins by EM method....at this time I can say the EM results yield a higher percentage of negatives.....I am very, very tired of testing and all the inconsistencies......I have said it before and I believe it, it is widespread.....I see that most dragons tested have it........we need to find out if it truly causes problems......if we have had it all along ...the dragons didn't tell me.

 

[varnyard]

Where do I start?

Let me first say I was wrong, not only wrong, but dead wrong on this. I have called both Denise and Tere, I gave both of them an apology, what happen here in the last few days is far from fact. IMO Denise is a great person, also I do not know how anyone could think anything but this about her. Tere is also one super nice person.

I have been deceived about this whole thing, I could start pointing fingers, I was misinformed from the start on this issue. However, when I hit the submit button it was me that posted.

 

[Cat_72]

Vickie, is there a date on that information? I believe I read the very same article yesterday or the day before, and it was a few years old? And with most of the information coming from birds and mammals, I didn't believe that all of it could be considered completely accurate for reptiles, as different strains of viruses can act much differently.

 

[Denisebme]

Where do I start?

Let me first say I was wrong, not only wrong, but dead wrong on this. I have called both Denise and Tere, I gave both of them an apology, what happen here in the last few days is far from fact. IMO Denise is a great person, also I do not know how anyone could think anything but this about her. Tere is also one super nice person.

I have been deceived about this whole thing, I could start pointing fingers, I was misinformed from the start on this issue. However, when I hit the submit button it was me that posted.

Thank you Bobby.

 

[CheriS]

Tammy, Sorry about the angry face in the beginning, I was trying to put it on at the end about the big picture and saw it did not show up, so clicked it again. It was only after I had submitted that I saw the first one I had tried to do had put it as the first thing in the post, it was meant to be in the end

Please bear with me, I am on a different computer than I had last fall/winter and do not have all the past emails so I am having to go by some memory alone. I do remember you contacting me about results on I think it was 50 dragons which was 2 clutches (clear) and 4 parent adults (3 clear and 1 showing I think it was one viral particle) I explained to you then not to panic -to contact LouAnn and have her explain it to you. I had just been questioning some of these test results also, control or lack of controls. I thought you did email back that she did not feel it was the adenovirus that affects bearded dragons, but one that was another species adenovirus that the dragon had picked up from the environment.... so negative in reality. Much later you told me you had some other positive and I told you I was very sorry, which I meant, I would not wish this on anyone whether they have healthy dragons or sick ones. I already knew you had positive ones in your collection from the new purchased ones, so assume it had spread to some of your original dragons. I am not saying your were careless, but it is hard to have a highly contagious virus in your home and not pass it to others before you never knew they were even positive. Even with gloves, you handle one bowl or touch one enclosure, you can pass it to another bowl, enclosure of dragons. Ray Hoser was passing a virus between his animals and did not think he was at the time either, even the best of herpers can do it accidentally

Originally when you contacted me in November (on the phone, not email), I thought you told me you had PCR tests back from the ones you had bought and those were positive 11 of 12, but that your original colony was negative from PRC...... are you saying now that I heard or remember that wrong and they were never tested prior to you getting the new ones? I will post later why I think it is not in all colonies and what I know is proof enough for me, I know maybe not for you or others that do have some that are positive, but bear in mind, if you are not seeing illness or deaths, and you tell people up front, no one will fault you for selling these, its the deceptive ones that I have a real issue with and that has helped spread this

Bobby

I want to say to you, when I first came and read these threads two days ago, I was shocked at your stand and some things you were saying to others, as that was not the Bobby Hill I had read so often in the past. Thank you for being decent enough to talk to Tere and Denise and apologize, it says a lot for your character.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Where do I start?

Let me first say I was wrong, not only wrong, but dead wrong on this. I have called both Denise and Tere, I gave both of them an apology, what happen here in the last few days is far from fact. IMO Denise is a great person, also I do not know how anyone could think anything but this about her. Tere is also one super nice person.

I have been deceived about this whole thing, I could start pointing fingers, I was misinformed from the start on this issue. However, when I hit the submit button it was me that posted.

Yes, thank you, Bobby. You are a man of honor, in these days with little or none.

 

[JimD]

Cat.
That was a list of info my Vet compiled for my wife and I and was faxxed to us yesterday.
Jim.

 

[draggintails]

right, that sub adult did go positive so all 12 of the new dragons were positive.

No, mom and pop never tested for AV before, why would they bother..even though it is not rare to have a sickly baby when you breed dragons, it is not common. I have never heard of people having problems with baby dragons, they are the easiest animal in the world to raise and they live way too long.

I did read about Wendy and that was peculiar......are you sure they did an acid fast for crypto? Those are the absolute symptoms for it and it is nasty and it spreads and it is deadly, no cure...the test for this has to be sent out and acid fast..you cant see it by regular MS. It will absolutely be overlooked if the proper test was not sent out...this is not only a problem with geckos and snakes but dragons get it too....

No, I tested the newbies first and it was Dr. Stacey that said I was going about it all wrong, to test my colony first because he told me most dragons were positive for adeno..I argued with him at first. We had never tested any of ours for a virus prior to the newbies coming in.....I don't know that that makes a difference.

I had already begun testing my colony when I spoke with you on the phone, I don't remember how many tests were completed off the top of my head on the day I spoke with you, but we were making progess by then. It is expensive..you cant just do all of them at once and 10 dragons at a time is $600...it has to be done in waves and in between bills. If you have negs coming back...on the front of the report they tell you why you must retest...there..more money...it is true we began using EM testing....honestly because Dr. Jacobson did not want to give me a discount, which I am still not ok with.

To those busting chops on breeders not testing: It is incredibly hard to come up with funds when the Universities do not give the breeders discounts...something to think about....it is their responsibility and yadda yadda....go to the loan officer? do what? not buy milk....this has to be thought about properly. I don't know any breeder who is having problems in their colonies...so if they are not sick then should they test? and if positive but really super otherwise should they not breed?...with all the information you just brought out in the last post Cheri...what should they do? Some who have said stop breeding until you test: Really and truly think about not getting up and going to your work....no really! do not go to work...what will happen to you and your children if you stay in bed and do not go to work for a month a year? You will get hungry in a month when your food runs out and can't replace it, your car will not go because there is no gas, then the repo man comes, then the bank takes your house....and if the information in that post is right and worthy of consideration by all of us.

When Florida makes the statement that most dragons are positive..and they are if you test by fecal PCR.......what then?

 

[Cat_72]

Cat.
That was a list of info my Vet compiled for my wife and I and was faxxed to us yesterday.
Jim.

I understand that, Jim.....but I believe that most of that information came from one source I just had been reading, and was somewhat dated, although some of it will always ring true.

If I can find it again, I will be glad to post a link to it.

 

[CheriS]

Tammy

When Florida makes the statement that most dragons are positive..and they are if you test by fecal PCR.......what then?

When Florida makes that statement I will still have the same questions to ask that I ask you to ask them and that the 2nd part below I asked Dr Jacobson about as I do think and told him there are clear colonies in the US and I still believe that.

Is the control sample/primer taken from a bearded dragon or a group of bearded dragons that had adenovirus that was causing pathological changes or death? Was it a know deadly strain?

Let me try to explain it as I think you missed the whole reason for this question.

Humans have several dozen adenovirus, some totally benign, some can make humans sick, with the young, very old and immune suppressed individuals can die.

Say virus #7 is benign and a virus that everyone gets as a kid, but virus #12 is really bad and has killed people. If we want to isolate a virus to then test to see if people are carriers of #12, know who many carry it and to keep them from others and passing it... we would NOT want to zero in on #7.

#7 would show in the majority of the population, maybe as high as 90%, but it is not a problem and never has been, where maybe #12 is only in less that .02%. They both look alike visually, they both have like DNA segments.

Is the control that the DNA is compared to, from a bearded dragon that has visual organ markers consistant with disease or death from adenovirus? Is it positively known to be the correct control? or could it be from a possible benign strain, yet still an adenovirus that is not and will never be a problem in them? Di they know that? Will it matter? Does anyone know the answer to that? That would have to come from whoever prepared that primer to begin with and knowing the history of the dragon(s) involved in isolating it. You had told me you would discuss that with Dr Stacey, did you and what was the answer if you did? I do not callt them much, I know they are getting called by many and often by some and they are trying to be gracious but they still need to work

I do now know, this may mean nothing, it may mean everything, but it is something that should be answered. The next thing is a $60 a pop, and it was much higher before, how many people that have older healthy appearing colonies have tested. OR is it mainly people that already have a reason to be concerned or have reasons to know they probably already have positive dragons in their colony. Is it a actual nationwide statistic or only a some breeders and those breeders multiple animals. You can go to a village in Africa and have 90% positive HIV stats, yet you can also go to a town in Canada and have less that .02%, neither are representative of the worldwide stats

 

[draggintails]

He has said over and over to me that they can not identify the strain. The information going on their website this week will address this question he says. I have it in writing here that he says most dragons are positive as well as anyone who has tested with them will get this and anyone who calls on the phone. The statement that I asked them to make for us will address prevalence. It was a majority taken from a sick animal, hence the need to go to vet submission only...people were calling back freaked that their healthy animal had this test result...that is the only reason they went to vet submission..not because they think we are silly.

But the point is this and I am not missing it: do not breed and sell positive dragons

what does that statement mean, you yourself and many others have raised a very real rebuttle to this premature statement....I certainly said premature.

The people that do this for a living...are they to adhere to this statement when the vet themselves say they know nothing about this virus, they can't identify strains, they don't know if it causes diasease with 100% certainty. When they have no problems.

And, what is good for the goose? wether you are deceitful or honest...selling a pos dragon is just that, the end result is a pos dragon sold

no, there are no clear colonies on record...proof must be provided ...which means these clear colony people must test and then they must have test results and then these results have to be verified with the lab...they can't say...yo, babe I'm clean. So, no there are no clear colonies that have been tested...this statement can be validated. Saying you believe there are clear colonies is a belief...people telling you they are clear...a belief.

I have not seen one person yet who has been tested...not thinking about it after I get my nails done..but has really tested..not one colony was AV neg. Florida is really adamant about this, when the website goes up you will see that the pos rate is over 90%.

We gain statistics from the participants....no one tested...225 samples..that was just a few people. Those were pitiful numbers. More numbers will be put up with Florida, I sure hope I see more than just the samples I sent...

 

[CheriS]

And, what is good for the goose? wether you are deceitful or honest...selling a pos dragon is just that, the end result is a pos dragon sold

I disagree with this, if someone has to sell ones they know are positive, they have an obligation to disclose that to the buyer... no matter what. Not hide it like some did and do have deaths and sickness in their colony!

This is not something that just came up this year about testing, it has been going on for several years before there was EM or PCR available on live animals because there was a massive outbreadk of dying animals with being adneo positive and some of us were concerned our dragons may have been infected so we had them tested.

I know some have clear dragons beyond question as they had test more accurate than what is being stated here. PCR, EM, via blood and feces are not the only way to know and there are 2 much more accurate test that are being ignore but have many negative results. I have had some of those and most people that have had dragons for over a decade or lost one and had a necropsy with advance liver studies have 1 of those answers already, those are much higher negaitve statistic than the testing being done on fecal or blood which it seems the experts say may or may not be an adenovirus that is a problem. I would think any lab that does a necropsy with advance studies or does a liver bio can already give the best and accurate stats of positive and negatives and I know from the past you will find a lot of negatives.

Not only were they negative but after talking to Vicki and Rob years ago when this stated for me and being told by them all dragons have adenovirus and it was normal, I assumed the lab had to be wrong when given the results and made them pull the slides and check them again.... specifically for adeno and the response was there was no adeno present or any markers associated with illness from adeno!! Now why would someone tell me different?

 

[draggintails]

Well then we all need to be testing by those methods that are the most accurate. I get my information from Dr. Stacey and he knows of no other methods besides fecal PCR and the EM.

Can you give me the name of the labs? I don't know anyone that has this information, only you have said this..Florida certainly does not nor does my vet. I need this information to give to customers and I want to retest all the lizards that I have and clutches.

I will order my kits (if the testing requires) today and begin a new round of testing this way.

 

[draggintails]

I would think any lab that does a necropsy with advance studies or does a liver bio can already give the best and accurate stats of positive and negatives and I know from the past you will find a lot of negatives.

I would not accept stats from necropsy labs, I would be pure silly....most dragons will show positive for adeno...Florida has stated this, you will see this in that long 15 pg document they are finishing up...so you will see adeno in most dragons on the necropsy (it is also very important that a necropsy have in writing..that they did an adeno test on this dead lizard..some do not do an adeno test, they run $400 worth of bacterials, etc..it has to state on the necropsy in writing that adeno test was run.

These other labs that are performing these other tests, how many submissions do they have (have they had) and can they offer us stats like IL and FL is doing. We can't keep going round and round..it is heresay until a lab puts out stats...we are all confusing the facts with the facts.

I still want to know what a positive means from the researchers, in fact forum. I asked and now they say they don't know.