Albino Ball Python Died!!

[CheriS]

ms_terese

Just looking at the first site I could find ball phythons-Bob Clark it mentions 2 months little contact and establishing a feeding pattern

Baby ball pythons are about 10 inches in length and are very shy. They will usually feed after the first shed. They should have a hide box and not be held often during their first few months of life to establish a good feeding pattern.

you can go to any search engine like I did for this one and pull up the sites, there are some that also talk about gout as a cause of death in one within a few months from stress of transport and not ideal enviroment.

Baby ball pythons do stress very easily, and that can have fatal effects on them, even if ideal enviroments happen later on. This one and its siblings should have never been put through this

 

[Adam Block]

Ritchie, I will bite and answer your questions for one main reason. If I don't you assume so far there is a reason, that reason being quilt. I'm answering your question only because I've done nothing wrong and Kevin is not answering anything for the exact opposite reason I'm willing to.

1. Who brought it to your attention that the snake was born the same month as the show (Kevin or your very knowledgeable friend)?

Kevin in our initial phone conversation that prompted me to comprise this thread.

2. What happened to the other "day and a half" of delivery of your snake?

I've already answered this question a few pages back.

3. In your four months of study....What other "breeder" have you found that has had trouble with snakes from Nerd?

What I found out was in two conversations, the first with Rusty's partner and the second with Kevin. That's why I decided to probe further.

4. Why did you wait four months after death. six months after purchase to complain?

I've answered this no less then twice in this thread fairly clearly.

5. Can we see the necropsy report?

There are a few things at this point I'm going to post after Kevin chimes in to dispel a few of the things going around. Only because he's making contradictory statements to the information I have and I would like to know where the truth lays. You have my word however it will be posted.

[b}6. can we see the genetics report?[/b]

This you would have to ask Kevin for as I don't know the genetics other then albino. Kevin has been rumored to keep excellent records and has the largest genetic diversity in the County.

7. can you illuminate these "rumors" about Nerd? (anything concrete or is it just the competition crying about prices?)

The issue at hand there wasn't crying. It was a broken promise motivated by money. If he's willing to break promises to his customers because "he needs money" it's not a far stretch to think he'll sell animals too young.

You also keep asking about why the age of the snake wasn't asked. They'd said the snake has been eating great and mention the number of food items the snake had eaten. Given that information and the reputation of NERD was good enough. Unless Kevin fed that snake one meal a day from the day it hatched the information given by them was false.

Kevin isn't going to answer these questions. There are people blindly defending him but not thinking about what if Kevin did sell a 5-day-old snake to somebody because he "needed money". Every time I'm asked to post something and do it gets swept under the carpet at that point. Well, you're not going to be able to keep doing that.

As for me saying it was a genetics issue. That was a lack of education on my end. Cheri helped with that to all of our benefit however. I was under the impression a snake that young couldn't die from gout at such a young age. With the thought that it's either care related or genetic given that the information I read said it was too young of a snake to be a care issue I thought logically it might have been genetic.

No holds in my story guys. I'm complaining about a person I spent the least amount of money with in Daytona and one of the less expensive snakes. If money were my motivation this post wouldn't be about Kevin.

Fact of it comes down to Kevin's being the only snake I've had die like this in the past five years.

Adam Block

 

[The BoidSmith]

I have never bought from NERD, although I have exchanged e-mails with Kevin a couple of times. If in the future I decide to do so, I will simply have to go to their page and read their terms, and I quote:

Claims/Returns

Please open shipping boxes and inspect all animals immediately upon receipt of shipment. If you have any concerns regarding your order, you must notify us within 48 hours of receipt of your shipment. We want you to be happy with the animals you receive from NERD; if there are any problems we need to know about them right away. Please contact us to discuss credit or replacement on animals with which you are dissatisfied (no cash refunds). Also, in the event that you need to contact NERD regarding any issues with animals you receive from us, PLEASE CALL - DO NOT E-MAIL!! We get so many e-mails in the course of a day that we may not have a chance to address them all at once, thus cannot always guarantee a fast turnaround.

The "bolding" is my own and it's meant to stress how a buyer should proceed when ordering from them. These are their TOS and if one doesn't agree with them there is always the option of going elsewhere to buy. If you buy from them, it means you read, understood, and agreed with their terms.

Best regards.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Adam,


Again you did not answer the questions AGAIN. Don't put

I've already answered this question a few pages back.

or

I've answered this no less then twice in this thread fairly clearly.

answer the question that is put to you now in these post. Another thing, How many other breeders sell their babies at those ages and nothing is ever said about it from the people that purchase them? I am willing to say alot of them. I have seen Pied Balls sold Directly from the egg and have grown to be adults now and are ready to breed. It is a risk that the buyer takes when purchasing an animal whether it is 1 day old or 1 year old that something might happen to it. I am not saying it was from your care but there is no way you can say that it is from Kevin's care or animal's lineage.

2. What happened to the other "day and a half" of delivery of your snake?


4. Why did you wait four months after death. six months after purchase to complain?

 

[Seamus Haley]

Just looking at the first site I could find ball phythons-Bob Clark it mentions 2 months little contact and establishing a feeding pattern
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baby ball pythons are about 10 inches in length and are very shy. They will usually feed after the first shed. They should have a hide box and not be held often during their first few months of life to establish a good feeding pattern.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually... It does not mention "Two"...

"A few" is not a concrete number, it means more than one but not very many...

"A couple" or "A pair" or the words "Two Months" would indicate a specific time period as you stated... If you are going to provide information of this nature, don't change it in paraphrasing while providing the quote in the same post... It detracts significantly from your credibility.

Thanks.

Secondly... Everyone who is saying that a representative from NERD has read this thread, I ask you to consider three things...
One, it is pure conjecture on your part.
Two, I know I often leave my computer online and idling, even on websites while doing other things... not saying this is the case but it is certainly a possibility.
Three, NERD has a number of employees, it is not Kevin alone, it is possible it is an individual who is unwilling or unable to comment rather than Kevin himself.

While it may not have been the definitive "It was hatched on this date, sold on this date." answer that people are looking for, listing their practices and standards without mentioning any deviation or unusual circumstances sounds like an answer to me.

Adam, you did not answer the question of what happened to the snake in the period of time after your thirty six hour drive estimation and the time at which you obtained possession of the animal.

You really haven't answered the other questions that you claimed you did earlier either... Maybe you read them wrong and thought you already addressed the issues, perhaps re-reading them and providing the information would be a bit more effective for establishing your arguments here.

Reputation or profile is certainly not a reason to place an individual beyond reproach however a large number of positive transactions and a small (or possibly even non-existent) number of poor transactions indicates a pattern. When that pattern continues over a number of years, it tends to give the participant additional credibility. Especially when the issue of contention is with someone who has a very poor reputation in their own dealings and a tendency towards megalomania and a history of self serving manipulatory lies.

Adam, it will help matters greatly if you simply provide your proof and let people judge it, none of this waiting until something else occurs, if you have it, post it. Answering the questions Ritchie posed, even if you think you already answered them would be beneficial as well. I also have a couple questions of my own for you to answer...

How old are you Adam? Not that it pertains much to the thread but it has been bothering me that you stated you had twenty three years of experience and, if it is not true, it is quite telling about your willingness to lie or manipulate fact for your own purpose.

What are the chances that your friend gave you the wrong information for the snakes in question? My understanding was (correct me if I'm wrong I'm too lazy to go find the quote) that three ball pythons were purchased at that show, two albinos, only one from NERD and a het female. If you could give a clear and distinct List of what you think the specifics are for each animal, please do... "Albino from NERD, came with feed card, born X/X/XX, fed X times." or the like, for each animal.

Kevin, if you are reading this, a simple and concrete number for a hatch date would be quite helpful to your cause... And if you wouldn't mind answering one question I have...

Do you provide feed history cards with sales and is the pictured feed card something you gave out with one of your animals?

 

[HerpVenue]

1. Who brought it to your attention that the snake was born the same month as the show (Kevin or your very knowledgeable friend)?
Kevin in our initial phone conversation that prompted me to comprise this thread.if Kevin was willing to mention it to you....whose to say he did not metion it to your friend? then again whose to say he did. what I am trying to get at is if your friend asked or not as to the age of the python?

2. What happened to the other "day and a half" of delivery of your snake?
I've already answered this question a few pages back You say that you did not recieve the python until three days later. You also said your friend drove to you for 24-36 hours straight. Thrity six hours is not three days. Thirty six hours is a day and a half. Where was the python being kept for the extra day and a half? Your friend "presumably" did not ask the age of the python...Did he even consider bringing heat packs with him? If he did ask the questions......did he write it down? Because as you said. He bought LOTS of snakes.

3. In your four months of study....What other "breeder" have you found that has had trouble with snakes from Nerd?
What I found out was in two conversations, the first with Rusty's partner and the second with Kevin. That's why I decided to probe further.
So basically you only found one (1) breeder who had a python die after obtaining it from nerd. Or are you trying to tell me that Kevin from NERD admitted to you that he has had other genetic problems?

4. Why did you wait four months after death. six months after purchase to complain?
I've answered this no less then twice in this thread fairly clearly.
Perhaps I missed it. That is why I asked..I could not find it. Want to answer it again?

5. Can we see the necropsy report?
There are a few things at this point I'm going to post after Kevin chimes in to dispel a few of the things going around. Only because he's making contradictory statements to the information I have and I would like to know where the truth lays. You have my word however it will be posted.
here we are again with those rumors. Quit insinuatiing and just tell us what they are. Quit playing games. quit talking about contradictory statements and then putting up your own. if you have proof post it. If he is guilty he can be deep fried. if not then shush.

6. can we see the genetics report?
This you would have to ask Kevin for as I don't know the genetics other then albino. Kevin has been rumored to keep excellent records and has the largest genetic diversity in the County.
Hello. I asked YOU for a genetics report because it was YOU who clearly said that your python died of a genetics problem. I would like to see a report that says your animal had a "genetics problem". i do not want to see a report from Kevin as to the animals background. i do not want to see a necropsy report that says it had gout. What I want is to see the report that says "This animal died of a genetics problem" you said it....now prove it

I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one

7. can you illuminate these "rumors" about Nerd? (anything concrete or is it just the competition crying about prices?)
The issue at hand there wasn't crying. It was a broken promise motivated by money. If he's willing to break promises to his customers because "he needs money" it's not a far stretch to think he'll sell animals too young. Wait... I asked for illumination on this "rumor" thing. and the only thing you mention is the price drop he made. so basically you are telling me the whole rumor thing is just about his price drop. Wonderful.

i thought you were gonna tell me that there are rumors about his genetics suck...instead you tell me his prices are too low?
what is it about you and peoples pricing.
You were basically kicked off kingsnake because you had complaints about other people high prices.
Now you're basing part of your arguement on other peoples "low" prices.

How old are you Adam?Not that it pertains much to the thread but it has been bothering me that you stated you had twenty three years of experience and, if it is not true, it is quite telling about your willingness to lie or manipulate fact for your own purpose.

I think I may have seen this question before and yet it remains unanswered. or maybe I saw it in my dream and just had dejavou...who knows.

What are the chances that your friend gave you the wrong information for the snakes in question? My understanding was (correct me if I'm wrong I'm too lazy to go find the quote) that three ball pythons were purchased at that show, two albinos, only one from NERD and a het female. If you could give a clear and distinct List of what you think the specifics are for each animal, please do... "Albino from NERD, came with feed card, born X/X/XX, fed X times." or the like, for each animal.

there were "numerous" animals bought.....in your own words. What are the chances your friend got his information all mixed up. Because he drove 24-36 hours to your house....But what did he do to get to the show? Was he way to sleepy from driving to the show? Could this sleepiness could have caused him to get his info wrong? He bought NUMEROUS animals. Did he write down all the information somewhere or did he just try to remember all the info?

 

[HerpVenue]

I am willing to say alot of them. I have seen Pied Balls sold Directly from the egg and have grown to be adults now and are ready to breed.

Rob although I do not agree with the practice. I have multiple animals that were only a few days old when acquired. They are all FAT and HEALTHY

 

[CheriS]

Seamus

Its taken you this long to find something on me to be able to get that

If you are going to provide information of this nature, don't change it in paraphrasing while providing the quote in the same post... It detracts significantly from your credibility.

line?

Actually... It does not mention "Two"...

NO, it means a minimum of two months, it could mean more..........it does not mean a few days or weeks thank you for pointing that out...... so glad you cleared that vital fact up

Secondly... Everyone who is saying that a representative from NERD has read this thread, I ask you to consider three things... One, it is pure conjecture on your part.

NO its not, try User CP>>> whos online, it changes ever few minutes and you CAN see if they are active as the location changes Unique huh? That answers your #2 also and #3 So your saying Kevin does not read these and its an employee that is who has access to his computer and not telling him people are requesting an answer to a question... possible, common sense would say otherwise, but I guess the best defense you can pull up.

There are instructional readings online to learn vBulletin if you care to educate yourself so you don't make mistakes like that in public from lack of knowledge vBullentin they even have tech support forums to answer questions should you find as you've said in the past

Annoyingly overbearing paperwork that comes with every product now telling you how to avoid being an idiot

 

[WebSlave]

Stay on topic, please, and do NOT verbally instigate nor badger another person on this site.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but if the shoe fits, please wear it.

 

[CheriS]

Ritchie, I am not trying to pick on you(your one of my favs) but he has answered some of those and more than once in this thread.

The bold in #3 answers your question in #4 and I think it was he wanted to inquire further if anyone else had the same problem, not complain... that was what was said in the first post.

As to #2, do you really think heat packs in August in Florida and the south was something to use or question about? MY concern would be more if they were kept cool enough in a truck.

He did answer #1 and it still goes back to the point that a snake that young should not have been at the show and sold... I agree, buying one that age was NOT a smart move either.

#5 I agree, I also would like to see the necropsy report

#6 He has clarified several times, he initially was thinking it must be genetic as he was not aware a baby two months old could die that fast from gout from damage to it several weeks earlier.... he states he *assumed* it had to be genetic. Most people do assume that gout takes many months or years from diet to reach that point. That I beleive is how he arrived initially that he thought it must be genetic and he has stated it and opened up his thinking since seeing some other information.

#7 ya all can fight out, too complex for me to explain

Ritchie, your later post, I have reptiles I also have acquied at a few days old....... Much caution was taken to avoid stressing them and minimal changes noticable to them.. I was not saying it could not be done or be successful...... But look at what this little one went through in a week... that was tragic and irresponsible on BOTH sides

Still love me? Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.......errr forget that one

 

[HerpVenue]

Thanks Cheri, you did clear up a couple things.
But there are a couple I still want answers too

Also I meant cooling packs...but since it is cold..I subconsiously put heating packs.

Still love me? Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.......errr forget that one

I will only comment once I see pictures.

I still would like to know..
1. how many snakes were bought.
2. did his partner write down any of the info
3. did his partner depend on his memory to keep the info straight (specially after a 36 hour straight through drive)
4.Did his partner bring the necessary suplies to care for the snakes on the trip or did he just leave them in the tupperwares or pillow cases.
5. Did his partner maybe confuse one snakes info for another?

As far as the snake being too young. Yes it was too young. But there is a point when I do not consider the seller to be responsible.

When I took home my snakes which were too young. I knew I was taking a gamble and never even considered a partial refund if anything happened to them. Then again I did not drive 36 hours from florida to arizona either. a 36 hour straight through non stop drive that took three days. 3 days which equals 72 hours.

 

[David Reid]

Grasping at straws???

It seems as though the unhappy buyer, errr, person who eventually ended up with the albino ball is grasping at straws in this thread.

1) In the herp business (much like the stock market), if you cannot afford to lose it ie-$2500, then do not spend it. Snakes are animals, some stronger than others, some taken better care of than others, some genetically inferior to others, some just not born to make it. If you feel your snake was genetically inferior, then you have to have some information to back that up. So far I have seen nothing to back your claim. Now, if 3 out of 5 babies from your ball's clutch died......, then you may have something to talk to the seller about. As it is, you have VERY little if anything to complain about.
2) You did not directly purchase the animal from the seller. For an expensive ball, I would not trust anyone but myself to make the purchase. Then, along with how many other snakes...your animal made a 1500+/- mile trip in a truck. How was it taken care of by your "partner?"
3) If the ball ate a couple of times and then spirals down hill, it appears that it WAS healthy, and then took a turn for the worse.
Who's fault is that?

It just appears that the buyer did many things that COULD have led to the demise of HIS ball python...


Dave Reid
Hoggwildreptiles

 

[franklinedwards60]

About the trip home.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

But a Truck Driver can only legally drive 8 hour in a 24 hour period. Because if he were to get pulled over and he log book didn't match his location he could lose his CDL?

Maybe that is where the other time went he was still on the road.

Also Adam has proved nothing here. Nerd (kevin) shouldn't have to say anything as Adam still hasn't even proved that the snake is actuallt dead. I have not seen any reports or pictures of this dead animal.

Heck Adam could have it in his snake room right now for all we know.

As John said in the post that got deleted by the Webslave. Adam has said in the past he could lead us all around as if we were sheep. Maybe this is what he is doing right now.

As there is no proff what so ever from Adam that this snake is dead. The only feed chart we have seen was from someone else who bought some animals from NERD. Nothing from Adam himself.

So Adam need to prove that there is even a dead animal here and a reciept for said aniaml that states it came from Nerd.

<b>Or this is all just hear say and we should take what Adam is saying with a grain of Salt.</b>

 

[HerpVenue]

But a Truck Driver can only legally drive 8 hour in a 24 hour period.

Very interesting indeed.
He was able to back peddle on the genetics issue.
If he can back peddle out of this one......I will proclaim him a GOD.

 

[Stardust]

Not that I have been a truck driver, but I do know truckers sometimes carry a second log for just that purpose. Not much money to be had if not.
Of course this is just something I happen to know, not in anyway insinuating THIS truck driver does that

 

[ms_terese]

Just my .02 cents on the driving issue....

I believe that it's 10 hours out of 24 that CDL people can drive. If they drive more than that and someone checks their log books, they can be reprimanded, fined, or eventually have their license revoked.

However, many drivers that are paid by the mile push the envelope, and even keep more than one log book. (FYI, I'm not a truck driver, but one of my closest friends is.) Drivers that *really* overdo it, though, by driving 12+ hours with inadequate sleep or try to compensate by taking the over the counter stimulants are very much frowned upon even by other drivers, not just the people that make the regulations. It's not safe to be driving a truck with a trailer when your senses are dulled. God help them if they're in an accident and those log books don't add up correctly.

Interestingly, though......if the actual buyer was working during the show, he would have to have done some pretty good scheduling to either pick up a load BEFORE the show and let it sit while he was buying snakes, or he would have had to pick up the load AFTER the show, which would have added some significant time to the travel.

Now, no one has actually said whether or not this person was working at that time, or whether the reference to him being a truck driver was to demonstrate that he was used to making long hauls and that 2000 mile trip to Arizona was done expeditiously. Heck, I don't even know if this guy has a CDL or if he's a local milk truck driver.

Like I said, just my .02 on the travel from Daytona to Tucson thing.

 

[Adam Block]

He was able to back peddle on the genetics issue.
If he can back peddle out of this one......I will proclaim him a GOD.

Independent’s they own their truck and drive as a team.

Legally 10 hours of driving per person but you can drive again after 8 hours sleep. Of course in doing so you would end up running out of hours at the end of a week but we're not talking about a week here.

Don't know many people that would take a 30+ hour drive in a truck and stop at my house when they were done. I got the snakes within 24 hours of my partner getting home but put three days to be safe.

Keep poking but the only holes we have here not being probed are Kevin’s.

I'm currently looking into 5 other dead ball pythons. We'll see what comes of this but I'll let this post go however you all choose. Hasn't anybody started to ask why I have an answer for anything asked and Kevin has yet to address one question asked of him? What I can't wait for is for Kevin to lock in a hatch date. Kevin knows, damned if you do damned if you don't!

Adam Block

Hey Ritchie don't you owe me something?

 

[franklinedwards60]

all I can right now

Adam you fail to prove you evn have a dead snake. So this must mean you are a <b>lair.</b>

Until you prove differnt then that is all you have done so far.

Anyone can say they have had an animal die but without proff. That is all it is is your word. you should know this much from this board.

<b>With out proof all your word don't men poop.</b>

 

[WebSlave]

Frank,

Watch the accusations, please. Lack of proof presented does not automatically make someone eligible to be called a liar. I want this, and all other threads on this site to be civil and respectful of all participants. And I expect language to be used that will help everyone else react this way as well.

Thank you.

 

[HerpVenue]

Independent’s they own their truck and drive as a team.

Legally 10 hours of driving per person but you can drive again after 8 hours sleep. Of course in doing so you would end up running out of hours at the end of a week but we're not talking about a week here.

Don't know many people that would take a 30+ hour drive in a truck and stop at my house when they were done. I got the snakes within 24 hours of my partner getting home but put three days to be safe.

Can you please tell us the whole story and all the details?
Because at first it was just your partner who drove 24-36 hours straight. Now your partner has a partner. You also state that you got the snake 24 hours after your partner got home. So basically all the information you gave is incorrect.

A. Your partner (alone) drove 24-36 hours straight.
b. your partner and his partner drove

a. your partner drove 24-36 hours straight to your house
b. your partner drove to your house after he got home

1. how many snakes were bought.
2. did your partner write down any of the info
3. did your partner depend on his memory to keep the info straight (specially after a 36 hour straight through drive)
4.Did your partner bring the necessary suplies to care for the snakes on the trip or did he just leave them in the tupperwares or pillow cases.
5. Did your partner maybe confuse one snakes info for another?
6. Where does your partner live?
7. was he working at the time?