Albino Ball Python Died!!

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Personal attacks WILL cease on this board if I have to delete every damned message that crosses the line! I have had enough of it! Name calling WILL END!

I am in the process of looking at a warning system that will be used to keep track of ALL people posting on this board, and once a limit is reached for infractions such as this, the offender WILL be banned and GOOD RIDDANCE!

This goes for EVERYONE! If you cannot discuss issues without attacking each other and letting emotional outbursts online drive threads into the gutter, then YOU will be the ones to destroy the BOI.

So, you all make the decision about whether you want this board to continue to exist and then act out your decisions. I will be judging your wishes by how you act here and respond accordingly and appropriately.

WebSlave

 

[CheriS]

Sad, seems this thread has gone off on the personal attack issue and not the substance of the post........ AGAIN!

 

[HerpVenue]

I've just gotten done looking at ten pages of posts. I have yet to see where I've said the snake died of a genetic issue?

First page.
Your first post.
Second to the last paragraph.
Fifth sentence.

I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one.

English is my second language. Maybe I understood it wrong.
but as I see it.....you are saying the animal did not die of a care issue. It died of a genetics issue.

Can someone who speaks english better than I do translate for me the part in bold? Seriously. I am not kidding. Because everyonce in a while I have serious doubts about my understanding of the english language.. I am having those doubts again. and no I am not being sarcastic either. You can just pm me if you want. You do not have to post here. Just explain to me what the part in bold means

 

[HerpVenue]

Whoops I am guilty of what webslave said.
I said that the buyers were dumb for accepting and or paying for a "sick or too young" animal.

with that in mind.....I apologize to both buyers for calling you dumb.
I should not judge you and call you dumb.
but I do reserve the right to say the "actions" (the buying and accepting of a "sick" animal or to young animal) were dumb
again, I apologize for the "they are dumb" remark. I will try to refrain from future name callings.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Adam,

It is obvious to almost everyone but you that from the begining you came here with intentions of getting a refund, replacement or something in return. You have done nothing but contradict yourself repeatedly and twist your own story and have not been able to follow your own timeline, records, and knowledge on this situation. As Ritchie pointed out, you from the begining said it was a Genetic issue

I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one.

I think it is time you take yourself, let this thread die, and go on about your other things in your life and stop this entire BS. The animal is dead. This is a tregedy, but it is NOT Kevin's/Nerd's fault in any way, form, or fashion.

 

[Stardust]

Regardless of whether Dave gets his money back or not. I do not think this thread should die. The snake did die and it should be addressedthe , if it can be addressed, on why it died. Whether be gout or too young. I believe this is important for consumers to know and what to look for if anything in future buying.
Letting a thread die just because the person who sold the snake is well known is not right. There are a lot of "guests" who frequent this forum to read and gain knowledge. I believe that is one of the reasons that this forum exists.
Just because the breeder is a big name and has apparent backers on this forum does not give the right for this thread to be stopped.

Rozann Lamont

 

[Stardust]

Sorry I meant Adam not Dave.

 

[ms_terese]

It's not about a big name

Rozann,

I don't think anyone is asking for a thread to die because NERD is involved.

I think the point is that the thread was initiated to see if there were other situations of animals dying, and there doesn't seem to be. What was initially reported as another animal dying "within a couple of days" of Adam's dying turned out to be 4 months apart if I am understanding correctly, and no one else has reported another problem.

Since the necropsy report hasn't been posted, I'm assuming that gout is still the cause of death. However, there are unanswered questions about the hatch date, the 3 days of transport after the show, and other variables that make it impossible to determine what might have caused the gout. I think the general consensus is that sometimes this happens.

I think we've all learned a thing or two about gout, and for that reason this thread was enlightening. However, I think it's now spiraled into accusations and finger pointing, which isn't serving a purpose at all.

I doubt that any further relevant information will be added at this point, and concur on the opinion that it should just die now.

 

[HerpVenue]

Kevin is the only person with these rumors floating around and he is the only one who can but for whatever reason won't dismiss them.

more insinuations?
I would like to know what these rumors are
If these are rumors about his prices........cry me a river.
If these rumors are about genetics...........prove it already.

1. Who brought it to your attention that the snake was born the same month as the show (Kevin or your very knowledgeable friend)?
2. What happened to the other "day and a half" of delivery of your snake?
3. In your four months of study....What other "breeder" have you found that has had trouble with snakes from Nerd?
4. Why did you wait four months after death. six months after purchase to complain?
5. Can we see the necropsy report?
6. can we see the genetics report?
7. can you illuminate these "rumors" about Nerd? (anything concrete or is it just the competition crying about prices?)

I am not a "NERD" backer. I just think someone who has worked so hard and so long to get where he is deserves to have his reputation speak for itself (which means the accuser better have his ducks in a row). With that in mind.....if there are concrete implications to the contrary....You can bet your buttocks that I will be grilling them too. The only reason i am grilling Adam is the obvious holes in the story. the obvious cntradictions in his intentions etc etc etc

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Rozann,

By letting the thread die means letting it go down the board with the other post. There is no reason to keep posting on it as no proof is being shown. Adam is doing nothing more than slinging more acusations and still trying to convince everyone that there is a genetic problem with Kevin's bloodlines and animals. I am not per say a "backer" of Kevin's but I am someone that will not just let someone make false accusations, inuendos, and stories about someone up without SHOWING PROOF! No such proof has been shown by Adam to support his claims of genetic problems so there is nothing more for this thread to do but go down the board. Viewers will still be able to read this thread and learn about everything in it but there is no need for it to continue to stay at the top for no good reason other than to sling more Mud.

 

[NEWReptiles]

A senseless thread to me IMO

Just because the breeder is a big name and has apparent backers on this forum does not give the right for this thread to be stopped.

It has nothing to do with backers of Kevins, and everything to do with the fact that over 4 months has passed and I still do not see the report from the vet stating it was a genetic defect, gout or even that the snake was too young to be released from the breeder.

 

[Stardust]

Terese,

I do agree with most of what you said, this was initially brought up to find out if any other occurances like this had happened with someone else. It at first got feedback from both sides.
However, and this is where I disagree, once NERD was introduced people such as evansnakes started doing so heavy duty backpeddling. And since then the thread has gotten somewhat dirty to say the least.
All to many times I see threads that die off with no answer. I would like this one to get back on focus and see something. Adam does need to put what he has on the table. If there are people out there, they need to come forward. And I believe NERD should answer some questions....like..... when was the snake born? It doesnt take a rocket scientist me to look on top and see who is on line or go to whos online and see just how often NERD is reading this instead of tending to his business, which I might add is a lot.
One thing I think you may be able to agree with me on is this....
if in fact there is some factual evidence or questions that need to be answered or people to come forward, do it now. No games, just lay it out on the table.
Leave the mud slinging out of it and let the people who need to talk about this talk.

Rozann Lamont

 

[ms_terese]

Rozann,

As staunch as NERD's reputation is, I don't think that's the cause for the "backpeddling" as you put it. I think that Kevin made some statements that caused people to question the statements that Adam made. Period.

I've spent *hours* reading threads on the BOI and the old BOI, and I have to tell you that I don't see that anyone's reputation alone will cause the members of Fauna to let them have a pass if an issue arises.

 

[Pennebaker]

Well, even though I've only ever owned 1 ball python in my life, I feel like adding 2 cents.

I think Evan hit the nail on the head when talking about the genetics issue being grey--that it is really too early in the game to know about what genes may prove to weak vs others.

My take is that , arent we all taking this chance anytime we buy any animal when it comes to genetics--but especially any special morph. It is my understanding that many types of specialty morphs would never live in the wild, and may in fact be "naturally" weaker, or weakened due to some level of line breeding. Besides, any animal can have a genetic "issue" without the breeder knowing it or the parents ever showing any signs--that is just the nature of genetics.

Even if this albino strain did prove to have a genetic issue, I do not feel that NERD would be at fault unless they knew about it prior to it being sold. It would certainly be interesting to find out if all albinos from this clutch died--but it does not appear that that happened. Even if it did, isnt that just the chance we take with new morphs? It is like gambling. It is also why I'm reluctant to drop a ton of money on any specialty morph of any species.
In fact, if I were to buy a special morph, I would probably expect it to be less hardy than a "normal" and take extra precautions.

Just my take after reading all this.

Dana

 

[Stardust]

Rob,

I believe at the beginning when no names where being mentioned there were no accusations, just a search or a quest, if I may use that word.
I consider you a upstanding seller as I have bought from you and understand what you are saying. I just would like to see something, whether it be Adam is right or wrong, and I dont know him. But as he started this, I think it should be addressed and answered, by HIM as well.
I will concede that if he does not come up with something or answers are not met then it should indeed go down into BOI cyber, but then what am I left with or other readers? Not to trust either party because Adam did not give vital info and Nerd did not answer important questions? See what I am saying? I cannot go on blind faith or for that matter sole reputation. I went on reputation once and it didn't turn out well.

Rozann Lamont

 

[CheriS]

Stardust is correct about one main issue, several of us have asked the hatch date of Kevin, and Kevin has to have seen that several times as we can see he is online. He is online right now and reading this thread..... SO Kevin, may we please have the hatch date on this python?

This is important to a lot of us.

 

[HerpVenue]

I believe at the beginning when no names where being mentioned there were no accusations, just a search or a quest, if I may use that word.

I agree with you.....because on the surface that is what it seemed. But something was digging up at me from the inside. That is why I stayed away from the thread for so long. I did not know what to make of what I was feeling in the guts.

So I saw what NERD wrote.
That is when it was finally made clear what I was feeling. He basically stated what was eating me up. That is when I finally decided to look closely...REAL CLOSELY
Was this search/quest for an answer or was this search/quest for money. take a look at this one paragraph

I ask that you please keep this thread on topic and if you feel the need to address other issues please either start a new thread or email me. I would like to keep this free of insinuations, insults, threats and allegations. I’m doing nothing more then looking for facts and have done my best to state facts as opposed to what I think. In the cases I have stated what my thoughts were I’ve tried to look at them with an open mind and think about the options as opposed to what I think. I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one. I don’t have any issue with loosing the money I have. I do however have an issue with getting such a high dollar snake so quickly out of the egg and with the breeders seeming unwillingness to work with me. I also have an issue with other people buying animals the may be dying from the same thing if in fact that turns out to be a valid concern

1. he says no insinuations. But states that his animal died of genetics.
2. he also insinuates that other peoples animals might be dying from the same thing.
3. Then he says he has a problem with getting animals so freshly out of the egg. Well he did not get it. His "knowledgable partenr" did.
4. He says he does not mind the money. But mentions money due him. And in another paragraph he mentions a 65/35 split. (sounds like info gathering to me)


questions
1. Who brought it to your attention that the snake was born the same month as the show (Kevin or your very knowledgeable friend)?
2. What happened to the other "day and a half" of delivery of your snake?
3. In your four months of study....What other "breeder" have you found that has had trouble with snakes from Nerd?
4. Why did you wait four months after death. six months after purchase to complain?
5. Can we see the necropsy report?
6. can we see the genetics report?
7. can you illuminate these "rumors" about Nerd? (anything concrete or is it just the competition crying about prices?)




as far as the hatch date. I think we can all conclude it was born the same month of the show. (This part I do fault him for) but there is nothing I can do about it. His breeding practices differs from mine. It could explain why he is more successul than I am...or it might not have even anything to do with anything.

 

[CheriS]

as far as the hatch date. I think we can all conclude it was born the same month of the show. (This part I do fault him for) but there is nothing I can do about it. His breeding practices differs from mine. It could explain why he is more successul than I am...or it might not have even anything to do with anything.

How can you say that last line? Every care info sheet or breeder site I have seen advise against this and why, granted you say that your practice is different, I am grateful for that.

If this baby was hatched the same month and the show was on the 17th to 18th, this baby was days old when transported and on display at the show, not two months as was alluded to in that attempt to answer.

How very sad, no matter what transpired after that, or who posted what for whatever reason, that was the start of this baby's demise and that is the fault of the breeder/seller. What could possibly modivate someone to do that? I can only think of one reason and its not the well being of the animal!

Since he chooses not to answer and address this question that has appeared many times and he has seen it, I think we all have the answer as where the first liability is and he seems to know that too.

 

[ms_terese]

Every care info sheet or breeder site I have seen advise against this and why, granted you say that your practice is different, I am grateful for that.

Cheri, can you provide links that show this? I am genuinely curious. Everything that I've read has said that the animal should be eating, drinking, and had at least one successful shed before being sold, but has not listed an age.

Since the age of this animal has become such a big issue, and there is so much conflicting information, I have been looking for strong reference information, and would like to know your sources.

 

[John Albrecht]

If I was spending $2500 on a snake I would have certainly made sure that I "knew" of its genetics before plopping any money down. I'd do that with a $35 corn snake because even if I wasn't keeping it I know that most people that would be in the market to buy it from me would want that information. Even if the animal is somewhat inbred I would expect the buyer to be responsible for asking for the genetics. When dealing with an obvious mutation that is currently extremely valueable it is all the more important to ask. Not asking is the buyers fault not the sellers fault. As far as its age goes, when you are looking at that time of year at a small snake isn't it reasonable to ask then about the hatch/birth date? If it truly was as young as it apparently is then the umbilical slit should still be quite evident and most people can look at that and tell if the animal is really, really young. I'm only an ametuer so it really sounds amazing to me that a "professional" would be in here talking like this. I do think that
a lot of sellers would be helping themselves greatly if they backed up their products a little more but ultimately I think this is a case of someone taking a shot where the risks were known, and it didn't work out like they hoped. I don't see this as a sellers problem. I think it is appropriate for the seller to provide any age and lineage information asked for by the buyer but thats the end of it. Adam, it seems like you are fishing here and trying to make it look like the seller is reponsble for the lack of investigation on the buyers part.
This is of course, just the unedumucated opinion of an ametuer.