Albino Ball Python Died!!

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Adam,

Ok I can understand you not wanting those other post. But the fact of the matter is you came here, asked for input and advice, have received the advice and input and the consensus is there is no responsibility on the Seller/Breeder. That should be it in my eyes but it seems that you are not happy with that and want to keep looking as you think you will find someone that will agree with you that they are at fault.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Although...

If I read Adam's first post correctly, he was looking for anyone else who may have purchased an animal from the same breeder and experienced a similar situation, which would have formed a signifigant balance of evidence that, even if it isn't genetic, it was the result of negligent care before it was sold...

If he can get even two or three people who purchased animals from the same vendor and had the same outcome, I'd say he has pretty signifigant evidence (I would usually suggest more than two or three but balls do have fairly small clutches).

 

[Adam Block]

Seamus I asked you this based on your quotes?

I have also found wildly varying lengths of time listed for the duration it takes for secondary gout to become lethal if untreated,

You have some of the most educated posts in here. Can you please back these great staitments up with the links to this information?

Since it's apparently well outside of the guarantee period, this leaves the buyer S.O.L. in this instance, especially when statistically, it seems more likely that the condition developed after the animal had been purchased

What is their guarantee period?

Also, you seem to have a source of information in this matter many don't. I link to were you found these statistic would be very helpful to us all.

Rob, Seamus is correct. I haven't put blame anyplace. I'm only guessing and asking questions at this point and haven't pointed a finger anyplace. I only question some things.

In speaking with my friend who also had a snake die from this breeder. He mention he bought and was charged for a CB00 snake. This was a few months back that he bought this two year old. When the snake came it was 282 grams. I have CB02 balls that are over 400 grams. The feed card also showed feedings once a month. This snake died as well within two months of him getting it and based on weight I would say it was neglected to some extent. If it was only fed once a month to you really think it always had fresh water?

I want to know if this has happend to anybody else? If not I will let it go as I don't care if I get a refund or a replacement. If I had I would have posted this months ago.

Adam Block

 

[Stardust]

Right on Seamus! You just saved me from writing that very same thing. If there are more people out there who had the same problem it could become an issue. And that is what I read in his first post as well. You can quit banging you head now. LOL
No accusations because he did not name the breeder. It would be in his and the others ( if there is others) and ours to know this info.

Rozann Lamont

 

[Gilbert Thompson]

Adam,
Is there anything suggesting that gout is considered genetic or that it has anything to do with the husbandry of the breeder? Just my opinion but I think Ball Python hatchlings should have at least eaten five times prior to being sold. It's not a set number or anything I just feel it shows the snake is ready for another home if it is a good, steady eater.
I know alot of breeders selling them right out of the egg and I also know alot of breeders making sure they are established feeders first. I prefer the later! Ecspecially, when high end animals are involved.
If some breeders prefer selling them right out of the egg. I believe this should be made aware of to the buyer. I also don't feel it is the buyers place to ask. I feel a good breeder should be honest and forthcoming enough to pass every detial in regards to the snake onto the buyer prior to the sale.
After all it's not all about money or at least it shouldn't be.
Just my opinion of course!!
Gilbert Thompson

 

[Gilbert Thompson]

Adam,
What sixe food item did she regurge on?
Gilbert Thompson

 

[Double "D" Reptiles]

one piece of info missing

Didn't see this thread until I got home from work tonight, so trying to catch up quickly and see what there is to learn. It seems that one key piece of information is missing which would enable everyone to concentrate their efforts to determine whether other neonate BPs were puchased (albino or not) from this particular dealer which may have died unexpectedly with or without a necropsy to determine the cause of death.

Who is the dealer?

I realize that this little bit of information may be quite unsavory for the masses, but as dealers, buyers and sellers (not to mention possible key witnesses to one side or the other) we are at a complete loss in our ability to ascertain any further information without this name, business or person.

I cringed when I read the topic line and dreaded what I would find when I began reading this thread. However, I will admit that I've learned from it in ways I never thought about. Gout was not one of those things I'd given thought to before now (outside of humans) and is yet another topic for me to reasearch further in order to increase my knowledge and be able to share. Having purchased imported CH balls in the past, I can now better appreciate the need to fully acclimate them and have them feeding regularly and watching more closely for them to be dringing on their own. While I knew this was important (can't think of a single one we lost or that was reported to us as a non-survivor later, though we did have a couple that were real pains and we wouldn't sell due to them being problems until almost 8 months later) I did not know exactly how important it was. To think that some pet shops actually plan on a 50% loss is outrageous and, to me, unacceptable as it seems to link directly to the care the animals receive while in the care of the shop.

As to the purchase/problem/refund issue, I fear that it could be one of those "cold days" we often hear mentioned before this issue is resolved amicably between all parties involved. As long as the seller is offering the best quality animal possible (granted we all seem to have slightly varied definitions and time-frames) with no known problems in their colonies such as genetic defects, illnesses or infestations of the internal/external varieties, then it is generally granted that a healthy animal is being sold/purchased. The breeder, who's name I have yet to read unless I missed it, could be asked about gout in their breeding stock, but they are probably clean as they have survived and thrived to the point of reproducing great looking offspring as witnessed by the photo. Unless enough evidence can be collected that points to a neglect issue in regards to the treatment of the offspring (enough for a jury of their peers to either convict or or for a judge to rule based on the evidence presented) then the buyer(s) of the animals is probably going to be S.O.L. Likewise, the seller, if pushed to look at a refund on something they adamantly claim is not their fault, is going to be looking for any inkling that conditions were not optimal AFTER the animal was sold...somewhere along the way. They'd use this to weaken the buyer's claim and discredit them in the issue.

By providing the seller's name here, more "networking" among keepers and breeders can take place to locate other offspring that were purchased at or about the same date in order to ascertain the survival of other animals and answer the overall health question.

As a seller of the animals we breed here, I'll offer a possible solution as if it were me (wish it was me with albino BPs and other high-end critters so I wouldn't be stuck in fast food) as the seller. If I had another albino ball that I had for sell, I'd offer to do a partial replacement, perhaps 1/2 price since I don't know exactly what happened and am unable to contact other buyers to see if similar outcomes were regular. This would likely be a hold-back animal and the selling it like this would definitely hurt future production, but worth it to set things right. If I had none available, I'd offer 1st choice of the first clutch to hatch next year at the same price (value fixed at 1/2 the cost of the original animal regardless of unknown costs the following year which could be more or possibly less depending upon production from an unknown number of breeders.) I would not offer a monetary refund as it would seem quite questionable and make me extremely suspicious of the circumstances. The original buyer would have the option of taking the offer or letting it be. It the individual, for whatever reason, chose to wait until the following year's first clutch and then neglected to respond after 2 or 3 serious attempts to contact (both by e-mail and phone),then they would forfeit all rights to the offer. If they chose at any point to decline the offer, then I'd say it was the end of discussion on the issue. I offer this scerario based on reading that the original breeder was successful in breeding attempts over more than one year, so offspring for the following year could/would be expected.

Okay, that was my $0.02 plus change.

David (friendly know-it-not-at-all)

 

[CheriS]

This is also what I read in his first post.... interesting how people read the same words online and see it differently, perhaps our own experiences play a larger role than we realize in reading something written opposed to the expressions that go with spoken words.

We lost a baby bearded dragon, long story short, from posting inquiries online we were able to find out not only that hundreds of babies from the same breeder were having the same problem, but they continued to sell them months later still dying with the these problems and able to help the newer owners avoid losing theirs with a heads up on what was causing it and quick treatment.

Same as some breeders/dealers may have read his post as trying to gather supporters to go after the breeder and that hit close to them.

Just an interesting point I thought.

Concerning gout, what many quote is a form of the disease that takes many months, years to develop due to diet. Dying at 2 months of age is not the case here. Neither is it an overnight development. I have read many studies on gout in pythons including one Cornell University did on young being shipped and it explains many forms of it, I was referring to studies on animals that were stressed in shipping and lack hydration, going for a short period of time without optimal conditions.

A high proportion of these animals were badly stressed in transit and the losses kept the price of the surviving animals fairly high. Most of these animals did not do very well in captivity, as dehydration from the trip caused visceral gout, killing many of the animals within a few months.

from http://www.pythons.com/

 

[Adam Block]

PLEASE READ THIS WHOLE POST!!

Here's what it comes down to for me. Refund or not, replacement or not. I feel this is an issue of ethics and not only with my situation but with other stories I've heard from people, as in the one I relayed about a two year old weighing only 282 grams.

These facts are the only things I have to go on and they are as follows:

1) The snake was sold within 14 days of hatching.
2) The snake died of gout.
3) The snake was free of any other protozoa at the time of death.
4) The snake ALWAYS had water while in my care.
5) The snake was feeding with no troubles.
6) The breeder has sold at least one underfed snake in the past.
7) That snake died as well.
8) He sold other from this clutch while at the show.
9) He denies even a chance that there could have been an error on his end.
10) The snake was promised as healthy at the time of purchase.
11) The snake was less then 8 weeks old at the time of death.
12) The snake had a 1275-mile trip down to Daytona with or without water.
13) The breeder claims to have the most geneticly diverse line of albino balls in the Country.
14) The breeder told me he only produced 15 albinos this year.
15) The breeder told me he gets burned out on snakes on a weekly basis.

With the above said I will focus on those issues only. I will also say the reason I purchase my animals from the breeders I do is because I feel they are big enough people in this business with enough of a reputation at risk to be trusted. In many cases I've found the person to seemingly only care about the money and have not done business with them. In others, I've found them to care about the snakes and people buying from them above all else. In all honesty, I've learned a lot from this. Mainly that nothing should be assumed and just because you've bought from a big name breeder doesn't mean you will not run into big troubles and surely doesn't mean the snakes have had good care.

I was blindsided by this, as this is a very trusted breeder when it comes to ball pythons and I didn't even think it as a possibility that I would get a fresh out of the egg snake without being told and the price reflecting it.

I'm not going to mention the breeder by name at this point because I feel that little has been established to back my conclusions. I don't feel with two dead snakes there is a backing or foundation for anything more then two odd occurrences.

Until I've seen a pattern I'm not going to put a mark on some bodies reputation as I think with the way things sit that would not be the responsible thing to do.

Has ANYBODY else had a ball python from a larger name breeder drop over in a manner like this? Or for that matter do any of you have any proof of poor care? I don't need a name but if you can post or email me the story it many be a help to establish a pattern and go from there.

Thank you all for reading this and taking part. Please if you have something to add feel free to do so. Understand though, I’m not pointing a finger or asking for anything to come of this. I’m only posting this because I feel there may be an issue here that needs to be taken care of if this has happened in more cases then the two at hand.

Thanks a lot,
Adam Block

 

[evansnakes]

Two quick points:

1) Cheri, ball pythons are not and were not brought from Indonesia to the USA. There has always been a generous import volume from three licensed African nations. Ghana, Togo and Benin.

2) Adam, in the pic on page one that snake looks poor to me. It is thin, showing it's spine and the tail looks thin which is an outward sign of dehydration. The color does note a linage that has been problematic over time, but I feel you know that already.

Evan Stahl

 

[CheriS]

I don't think I ever said Ball Pythons came from Indonesia, I know they come from Africa, I was relating a report done on many "pythons" that specifcally stated a study on ones that came from Indonesia and the cause of death of those being gout from lack of hydration, but the death occuring two months later.

 

[STUART]

Am I the only one here that thinks the albino in the picture looks sickly? I will admit if I saw that animal I would not buy it in the condition it looks to be in on the photo. It looks a little thin and dehydrated to me. Im not surprised it died shortly after the photo was taken. Now Im not posting this to flame Adam Im just wondering if anyone else sees it am I crazy? Im not saying its your fault either Adam dont get me wrong the animal does look a slight bit thin though backbone and all, skin doesnt look quite right either. To me it doesnt look as if this animal has fed in quite some time is that true?

Stuart Lichty

 

[Adam Block]

I will post a photo of the snake taken less then 5 days before it’s death. For reference the piece of wood next to the snake is 5.5 inches long. The reason for this photo is two fold. I think it shows the state of the snake and may also help people who may have had the same thing happen decide if it looks to be from the same line as this albino is fairly distinct looking.

Yeah the snake looks like crap. It had just puked a mouse up before the picture was taken. When I said that I was posting the picture so people could see the condition of the snake I was under the assumption it's poor looking state would be noticed sooner then the 6th page. I will say that after feeding her she had been soaking in her water dish up to the day she puked up the mouse.

I'm including a picture of another Albino bought from B.H.B. at the same time. This is basically for the non-python people out there to get some idea what this snake should have looked like.

<IMG SRC="http://www.angelfire.com/nv/impactreptiles/albball1.jpg" BORDER="0" ALIGN="center" WIDTH="556" HEIGHT="445">

The snake in the photo on page one had been fed only five (maybe 6) meals since birth at this point and had just puked up the 5th an hour before that photo. As for the spine being pronounced, to some extent that is normal in a very young ball. Not to that extent but I don't see that as a sign of a lack of water as the animal was soaking a couple days before the photo. Just so none of you put your foot in your mouth about the spine issue. I'm going to post the url of one of Ralph Davis's pictures showing three babies with pronounced spines:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/images/collection/pythons/ball/lav_albino/lav_albino_16.jpg

As with all the links in here that is of course for reference only as Ralph has nothing to doing with this issue.

Adam Block

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Adam,

I am a little confused here on some of your comments. You just said

Yeah the snake looks like crap. It had just puked a mouse up before the picture was taken.

and have posted before that the pic was taken less than 5 days before it perished.

I will post a photo of the snake taken less then 5 days before it’s death. For reference the piece of wood next to the snake is 5.5 inches long.

and now your saying the pic was taken an hour before the photo was taken

The snake in the photo on page one had been fed only five (maybe 6) meals since birth at this point and had just puked up the 5th an hour before that photo.

I am really confused on this as your original post said it died less than 12 hours after it regurgitated.

8/05 The animal was place in my care, was feeding fair and in good physical condition.Over the next six weeks this snake fed five times with no troubles and seemed very healthy.

10/02 The animal was fed and two days later ended up regurgitating her meal between nine and eleven pm. Less then twelve hours later the animal was dead.

It seems to me that you do not really know the timeline on what happened. It keeps changing with every post and we can not get a true accurate idea with the changes in the time line.
I had noticed the animal was on the thin side and it does appear to be on the dehydrated side. Also a snake (specially a Ball Python) does not get that thin after regurging just one meal and specially not an hour after regurgitating a meal. I wishyou the best in your search for any collaborating witnesses of this problem with other animals but to be quite honest there is nothing that the Seller/breeder should or will do for you specially with the facts you have given here.

 

[NewEnglandReptile]

The OTHER side of this STORY...

As I read bits and pieces.
I am the lowly breeder that pulls snakes from their eggs and hurries them to a show and sells them without allowing them to drink. I am the guy that does not know ball pythons. This is basically how Adam is portraying this lovely STORY!

This is far from the actual facts.

His partner as I understand did buy 2 animals. An albino and a het, these are littermates. Adam states that the het was a yearling, this is completely incorrect.
The animals were the result of breeding an albino male to a het female. The clutch had hatched out prior to the show and had shed and began feeding, this period is typically at least 4 weeks before they understand what food is and begin to act like they understand what life is all about. All of the animals were feeding and fine when I brought them to the show, this fact is simple. The animals were not dehydrated and got water when needed, we bring bottled water & dishes for this exact purpose!!
I sold two albinos and several hets from this litter in Daytona Florida 2002.

I can not bear to read this endless thread so I can only state some of the bare bone facts.

NERD recently got a call from Adam where he told one of my employees a snake that he had purchased in Daytona in August had died. He wanted it replaced. I called him back and left a message. After nearly a week he called me back.

When I spoke with him it turns out his partner purchased the animals, Adam thought the yearling het came from someone else. His partner had bought two albinos and a het. He told me the partner had bought an albino female from NERD and the yearling het and other albino baby from another breeder. It turns he bought both an albino and het from NERD. Both were babies, the het was not a yearling! This set of facts stated by Adam are incorrect. I remember his partner and the sale.

The snake, Adam claimed, died nearly two months later. I was informed approx. 5+ months after the purchase. WHY??

He then tells me another friend got an unspecified het albino from NERD that also died too. So he feels there is a trend in NERD's albino stock.

He decides that my snakes must be genetically inferior and this was a genetic issue. This was the fault of the breeder for selling inbred animals.

Adam is a longtime breeder with credentials to back up his credibility. He did nothing wrong to the animal and feels that this is NERD's fault. We have spoken on the phone several times and the friend's story who had the other het albino that died has not been backed up. I have no idea about this other person and if they did buy anything from NERD. I hear stories about misrepresented animals on a regular basis claiming the animals were hets from NERD when they were not.

Adam's partner is NOT an accomplished herper such as himself. He is a truckdriver and I will leave it at that, Adam.

This far we are unsure if this was even the famed albino that came from NERD since Adam has confused the age of the animals and origin this far.
Did his partner keep the animals correctly before turning over their care to Adam?
Why did he wait 5+ months to call me?
Why does he claim the het female baby was a yearling? To make it look like is was genetically infererior and a runt? To make it look like a problematic snake?
Why does he twist every fact around to suit his needs?
Why is this NERD's fault?

The best way to make someone look bad is to first lay down the ground story and perpetuate the innocence of the buyer and to qualify the animal's care. Don't mention the breeder yet, just make it look bad but try to look reasonable. Look for opinions, what should a decent person do? Talk to the breeder and decide that if they do not replace the animal you will make it public that the breeder is terrible and basically sells inferior animals to unsuspecting buyers. Very easy to twist things and blame it on the breeder. Very easy to taint a story.

I am not aware of the things posted here and came here to at least defend myself before Adam misinforms everyone without my side of the story.
My albinos are wonderful and have yet to give me such problems, this is a point of pride! I did sell another albino ball at that show that was a littermate to Adams albino and het. We were able to track down the buyer and his snake is PERFECT!
I can involve him if needed to back this claim.

Funny how my conversations with Adam were almost used to gain further info on which to twist. I am "burned out". This notion is from a friendly conversation I had with Adam and talking about how hard the business is and it can be hard to make every day a happy one dealing with the daunting task of so many animlas and employees. This business is hard and I work every single day for nearly eleven years to keep it going. I told him I love the animals, other aspects make things hard on me.
I told him I had only produced 12-15 albinos this past breedings season. This is true, I use het females and albino males for my albino babies. I am constanly trying to produce double het projects and use many of my female albinos and such for these projects. This is intentional, I could produce quite a few albinos but I choose other avenues. I do have a very diverse albino group and the animals are far from inbred or defective. Many of my animals come from wild albino stock from Africa! He twists things around whenever possible. He was baiting me, I now know this after scanning some of the post whcih I can not bring myself to read completely.

As I had left it on Saturday I told him I felt bad his animal died but I did not think there was a problem with the animal's genetics. I can say this with absolute honesty. I did however offer to try to work something out with offering other animals which I have for a reduced price to help the situation. He seemed agreeable and we even discussed some of the animals that I have that may be of interest. I thought things were working out and gave it no more thought. I have now discovered Adam had laid his ground story down and was going to use this as a crow bar against me. I find this thread and an email from him telling me he will take a het albino to "get this taken care of...rather than taking it much farther than it should go."

At this point I feel that his entire story is full of fiction.

I will not be badgered by such stories.
I feel 100% confident that the snakes I did sell in Daytona were perfect! They were feeding (several times) and NOT dehydrated! Dehydrated snakes, babies especially, do not look good when you are trying to sell! I don't even know if the albino that died was even the one from me! The story changes and shifts to suit his purpose! I breed ball pythons, I produce some very pretty animals and create new morphs. I bring many ball pythons that I produce to show and sell at shows. If I was abusing these animals I would not be able to do this year in and year out. I have beautiful displays made to keep these guys warm and safe! I feel that I understand them well enough to know when to water them and keep them hydrated.

Did these animals get watered when they were carried in a truck by Adams partner?

This story leaves me confused. I am always willing to work with people when the animals may not be adapting to their new environments. This is the nature of herps. I do not respond well to situations where someone thinks they can bully me to do something or else! I have not seen the Vet. report as of yet and have no way to even prove this was a report on the actual albino i had sold.

Thanks for reading my basic stripped down version! Kev NERD

 

[NewEnglandReptile]

Sorry...forgot my full name on the last post.

Kevin McCurley - New England Reptile Distributors, Inc.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Kevin.... As I've stated in a couple of these posts, already.... YOU have NOTHING to worry about.... I knew right off the bat what his motive was, and you clarified that to a TEE!.... Personally, if this was MY snake.... I wouldn't give him the right time of day in compensation for the way he tried to GET OVER....
Even Adam claims that he can get ANYBODY to think "his way", if he words his posts properly.... he seems to think that we are all sheep waiting for the slaughter....
Kevin.... don't give this thread another thought.... now that we KNOW who he was talking about, this whole thing becomes much clearer.... Your reputation is beyond reproach, as far as I'm concerned.... and I'm sure there are MANY people that think just like I do....
You did the right thing and you did nothing wrong!.... forget it!

....Neil

 

[Adam Block]

Thanks for posting in here Kevin, as I wouldn't not have mentioned your name and am happy to see you have.

First off, you really have yet to address any of the questions I stated. I called you looking for nothing and in fact told you I don't mind taking a $2500 hit if you can make me smile doing it. Do you deny me saying that?

Secondly, if you would like to stick to saying the het was a baby you are surely helping my case, as that snake was 200 grams heavier then the albino. It may have been a littermate but is sold you sold it as a yearling. I would very much watch what you point out as fact and fiction as I intend to post the receipt and the report from the UofA so before you state fact think about what I may have to back up my story.

Thirdly, so I know what sort of game you and I are going to play with each other. Are you telling me you didn't say the snakes were born the month of the show and you didn't even know if they'd be out in time to take?

As far as my partner being a truck driver. This is very true although I’m not sure what your point to that is? You say need I say more as if you’re trying to infer something? Why don’t you just say what you’re thinking because I don’t recall you having any trouble accepting his money? Are you saying that you have less respect for him or what? Do you stereotype all of your customers like this? He started driving truck after working here running parts of the largest pet store in Tucson for 3-4 years.

Kevin, you've also yet to address the 282 gram 2 year old you sold to Rusty Davis that ended up dying. What is the situation with that? I will do my best to get a scan of the feed card that was sent with the snake posted so we can see how little the snake was fed.

I also called you stating facts only. I told you I didn't know if it could be a genetic issue? I never said there was a genetic issue with your snakes.

You have also not read this post as you're asking a lot of questions that have already been addressed. This is a big deal to me and I would think you would take it more seriously then to just start responding without reading.

Kevin, I called you with good intentions and only to get some more info from you. People know you're a hothead and I would be happy to sight examples of this if you think that would help establish this. I had no underlying motive for my phone call other then to see why you thought two of your snakes had died within two months of the buyers getting them. I have a feeling I've sold more snakes then you the past two years and I know of none dropping over dead like this.

Please keep your emotion out of this and stick to the facts here Kevin. I'm not trying to start a war or get you to replace the snake as you already said you refuse to do that. I'm trying to establish if there is more of a pattern then these two snakes. I don't mind loosing $2500 but I will do my best to find out why I did.

Neil, ever see Conan the barbarian? Remember after he kills that thing at the end. Then the little guy comes up and puts his foot on the monster all proud like he did it? Too funny buddy! You're so cute. And the way you only posted now, ignoring anything I said about you? Anybody want to get in on the bet? Does Neil just pretend like I never made that post? I love you buddy

Adam Block

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Adam.... you might as well stop IMing me, every time I see it's from you, I do NOT open it and I do NOT read it.... From all the things you've said on this board, I wouldn't trust a word you say....
The only thing you're trying to do is discredit Kevin and his company, because of a snake YOU killed!....

....Neil

 

[Adam Block]

Neil, I think I’ll just respond with your own quotes on this one.

how you can even question my integrity is beyond me...I'll put my honesty and integrity up against anybody!

yes, the snake DID DIE (of what, I don't know), but...yes... instead of just deleting the ad on KS, I said it was sold and I thanked someone (my bad)....

I really DID get confused when I put down that the Motley(ISH) Boa was stolen instead of dead....

I was in jail from March 17, 1976 till April 7, 1977 for Possession of a Controlled Substance

What makes this even better is that there are SOME people on here that are REFUSING to do any more business with me.

Do ya think? And you're worried about Kevin's good name?

Folks....the truth WILL eventually come out!

Neil says it best! That’s all I’m asking for, nothing more, nothing less!

Adam Block