Albino Ball Python Died!!

[Casey Hulse]

Let me start out by saying this is Darla, not Casey.
I am confused over a few things and I was hoping someone could clarify them for me.
Adam,
Are you saying that NERD intentionally mislead your partner on the hatch date of the snake, or did you both assume the snake was older based on how much he ate? If the hatch date was important, it seems that your partner should have asked. Is it up to the seller to know what kind of information you deem as important? It seems the buyer should know what questions to ask.
Say I believe the feed card is from NERD(which I do). That is from another snake and we have had some balls that eat well and some that are very finicky. I am sure every snake breeder out there has had at least one snake that did not feed well. That feed card only shows the meals the snake actually ate. Does this accurately reflect the amount of times they attempted to feed the snake and it refused? Do they only keep feed cards on snakes that are not eating as they would like?
I do not know how long NERD has been in business but finding 5 snakes that perished out of thousands sold may not be as significant as you make it sound. I do not know.
If you read back over your facts , as an objective third party, you will see that the actual facts are few and far between. A lot of what I see as your argument in your initial few posts was a terrible lack of communication between you and the partner you sent to do your bidding. You assumed things you should not have and then put them down as facts. This is what started to make you look like you were just out to ruin NERDs reputation. One unsubstantiated accusation (assumption) can negate a boat load of facts when the person making them has shown themselves to be spiteful in the past. Maybe it would help if you restated all the FACTS you have. Not , "I have proof" or "I will get proof" or "just wait, I will post the proof at just the right time". The proof needs to be posted when the accusations are made.
I am also confused by the timeline, but I don't think you will ever clarify that. Why say the snake died within 5 days of the picture when it was actually less than 12 hours later? I don't understand why you chose 5 days. It seems that saying 12 hours would have helped your case more.
The necropsy report does little to help simply because there is no way to verify it is the right snake.
You have not replied to the fact that a month after you bought 60 snakes at a show, you posted on here that you would never buy from shows and that you haven't purchased a snake in years. Unless you have a memory like Neil's (sorry Neil) then that was a flat out lie. Why? To make it look like you were some elite breeder who is better than the rest of us who go to shows? Going to shows in no way reflects on someones ability as a breeder. But , it is statements like those that have seriously called your credibility into question.
I do not know NERD, have never purchased from them, but have purchased from you. What you have posted so far in this thread would steer me away from you, rather than NERD simply because of the unfounded accusations. A good reputation is earned over years of doing the right thing. You are trying to ruin someones reputation based on one transaction that you are unhappy with, that could just as well have been your doing as theirs. From what I can see, you had the snake for the longest period of time, and you said yourself it was doing great through at least 5 feedings. When exactly does the sellers accountability end in your eyes?
Sorry for the long post.
Darla Hulse
P.S. Would you have made the initial post if N.E.R.D. had given you a het ball to replace the one that died?

 

[HerpVenue]

Here is the shrot and sweet on the matter.
Adam is a little boy who has dreams of making it big in the reptile industry.
I can have dozens of links and show everyone his stories of just how big he is.
Adam will probably not be back on this thread because he has shown himself to be a liar once again. The big breeder who does not do reptile shows and has not acquired any new animals in years just got sixty(60) of them from a reptile show just a month before he posted the aforementioned.

And he will not address those lies. Because he knows he is caught.
He will not tell us his age of 28 because it would show some perspective on his 23 years of experience.

He will not post the full necropsy report....because the report is not of his albino ball python. Rather..it is someone else's snake.


and you all wonder why the dates and the name on the necropsy report was blocked out


Shouse, Ball Python
http://www.elon.edu/shouse/

Thanks to CheriS - she is digging some more.
I on the other hand think this is good enough to post

Hey adam !!
is he an old teacher or an old friend?

 

[HerpVenue]

whoops hit return to soon


just look at the picture.
it is there.
shouse, ball python


the ball python in the necropsy report is not adam's

 

[Darin Chappell]

"P.S. Would you have made the initial post if N.E.R.D. had given you a het ball to replace the one that died?"

EXCELLANT question, Darla!!!

Here's another that just struck me. IF, as Adam said in his intial posts, he was convinced that this albino ball died due to a genetic fault making NERD's animals predisposed to gout, and IF, as Adam has said so many times, he is vigillant about never bringing sub-standard animals from others into his collection/breeding colony,


WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD HE WANT A REPLACEMENT FROM NERD???????

A reimbursement of money? Sure. But a replacement of one animal from the same line that Adam thought the other one came from and was convinced the line was faulty? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

True, Adam says he was better educated on the causes of gout as this thread came to fruition, but that was AFTER he had already approached Kevin for that het ball replacement! Why would he ask for that in the first place?!?!?!?

 

[Darin Chappell]

Ritchie,

I was busy running of at the mouth (fingers) when you posted that excellant job of detective work done by CheriS! Too, too funny, really!!! LOL

So, Ritchie, how far down the shaft toward the hilt do you suppose Adam is by now?

:laugh:

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I see that Adam is trying to skirt Faunas TOS by slightly rewording the unfounded "bad guy" post against NERD that the webslave already deleted. The new and improved post still has no evidence and is all innuenso but now actually states that it has no evidence and is all innuendo. Big improvement.

Just curious Adam...wasn't behaviour of this sort the same thing that got you the boot on Kingsnake?

 

[HerpVenue]

So, Ritchie, how far down the shaft toward the hilt do you suppose Adam is by now?

CheriS done pulled it out his other side for him. and stuck it back in just to make sure he is done.

Again I did not do any detective work.
As I have said in the past. It is everyone else's work that gets things accomplished.

 

[CheriS]

I for one hope this is not what it appears at first viewing. I talked to Adam in detail about this transaction and what he was looking for. At that time he seems a good sort of person and sincere, interested mostly in understanding how gout could have killed his snake. I totally accepted that he initailly thought it had to be genetic, most people think that in one so young.

As I understood it at that time, the concern that prompted him to write this thread was the fact that he found out the snake was much younger than originally led to believe and checking if others from that clutch had the same problem. I also side with him on that. Talking to Adam and post on here I know he plans to move to the Carolina's.

I've seen many necropsy and pathology reports, this one seemed strange on several issues I will not go into, but especially in view that the date and the history brief was blocked out, two main things that would support his claim.

I started to look for a Vet named "shouse", to back up Adam's posting. Usually a necropsy report has the owners names, breed, but occassionally they have the vet name, breed on the top. I searched all the online vet listing and could not find one. I then tried Vet/shouse/Arizona thinking they may not be listed, then questioned if this was not the owners name and checked shouse/arizona, finding steven house , that got his PhD @ University of Arizona and now is Dean and Professor of Biology @ Elon University in North Carolina, with the email name of shouse

Perhaps there is an explanation for this that Adam will share. I really do hope I am wrong and a simple explanation will tidy up what this looks to be or this is just many coinsidences.

 

[HerpVenue]

I agree that most of the time it is
Owner/ball python

and sometimes it is
Vet/ball python.


But in this case it says
Shouse/ball python
and the report is signed by Bradley.

To me that means Bradley is the Vet and Shouse is the owner.

If this has a real explanation....I would like to hear it.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I see that Adam's second attempt at a smear campaign on NERD didn't survive long either. Keep trying Adam. If you keep rewording it and post it 30 or 40 more times maybe the Webslave won't notice.

 

[CheriS]

Hey Ritchie,

Bradley was the one doing the physical necropsy, the Vet (if there was one that submitted it for study) would be in the blocked out areas. The reference usually has the owner/breed or if owner unk the vet submitting/breed.

Here is an example retyped of the form of many I have

Name of Path Service or on this side
Address of Path Serice


Date:

Doctor Submitting: Miller, Suncoast Vet Clinic
Biopsy samples: 2 sections, or 2 tissures, or one preserved speciman)
Source/history (deceased suddenly, age 9 month or history of coccidia, malnoursihed, etc)

Reference: Smith, beaded dragon

Diagnoses: gout

Body of Report:

Comments:

Pathologist:
Name of Dr doing necropsy
Address
Phone

This is taken from the form of the majority of over 80 reports I have (NOT MINE) Some are layed out slightly different, but all have the same basic info

 

[pappy1473]

Info on gout..

Sorry for your loss Adam, I hope that my posting can help people to understand this disease better. I have been a LVT for 10 years(licensed veterinary technician)and Ive kept reptiles since I was knee high to a grasshopper. But I just recently had the wonderful opportunity in assisting with a necropsy on a gharial @ UGA. The gharial had gout and I learned so much by being able to physically see the diseased tissues/organs.
An animal with gout may not show any signs and can live a long life with it until environmental factors come into play.This is especially true in reptiles. This is because the liver breaks down purines (or basically uric acid) with the assistance of amino acids they receive from their diet. Extra "uric acid" is then filtered through the kidneys and then excreted. (urates) There is also a form of "free flowing" uric acid in the blood or serum of the animal. If the levels of uric acid are too high in the blood stream they are deposited elsewhere and form crystals. These crystals can form in the joints of any extremities, liver, kidneys and other organs. Thus causing the liver to shut down, the kidneys to shut down, severe (painful arthritis) and eventually death from kidney and liver failure. Now with reptiles these circumstances can be escalated by longterm exposure to cold temps, dehydration (lack of fluid=lack of kidney function) and improper diet. These factors affect uric acid excretion. Improper diets are main causes in iguanas (people who offer animal proteins rather than herbivorous diets can potentially cause gout due to the varied amino acid content) And with snakes, chronic cold temps and dehydration can escalate the disease process. Anyways, Hope this helps, take care..
Shannon Richards
&
Christian Wright

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

A little problem with Adam's math

The following is quoted from an earlier post by Adam in this thread.

"The feed card also showed feedings once a month. This snake died as well within two months of him getting it and based on weight I would say it was neglected to some extent. If it was only fed once a month to you really think it always had fresh water?"

Here is a quote from Rusty Davis:

"But there was one feeding on 10/07/01, 10/24/01, 11/16/01, 12/13/01, 1/03/02, 1/15/02, 1/21/02, 1/31/02, 2/11/02, 3/11/02, 3/22/02, 3/27/02, 4/10/02, 5/07/02, 5/19/02 these were the feeding on the card at purchase. Thats 15 feedings in 8 months."

Near as i can figure, 15 feedings in 8 months tallies to a feeding every 16 dayson average, not once a month. I am not an expert on Ball Pythons, my area is colubrids, but I have had a few over the years. I don't think that anyone who does keep them would claim that bi-monthly feeding constituted abuse as Adam infers.

A breeder who produces large numbers of animals for resale does not generally keep all of his saleable animals on a heavy feeding schedule. They are generally fed at a rate that would ensure moderate growth and be more than sufficient to keep the animal healthy. Just because it is possible to stuff an animal to promote unusually fast growth does not mean that everyone subscribes to a schedule of that sort.

Since the infamous feed card was one of the only two peices of hard evidence that Adam chose to share with us, (even though it had nothing at all to do with his transaction) I guess we are now down to nothing but the highly questionable vet report.

 

[HerpVenue]

Adam
with regards to the PM you sent me.

You said you would answer any questions I have....but first I have to contact those people you pointed me to in regards to NERD.

that was your Deal.

Here is my counter Deal.

Post the full necropsy report (no blocking out the real owners name) and I will contact anyone you want me to contact. Then I will come here to verify or dispute what you said.

 

[Adam Block]

Okay, so let's us get this in writing for you and I and the Webslave to agree on. If I post the full report, then you will call the people I tell you to, big name people. And verify that in fact I am correct in what I'm saying. You also agree that you will not tell anybody on here who told you the information? You would of course have to promise these people this and that you won't tell Kevin either as many have pending deals with them and stand to loose money.

You also agree that you will state what you find out in the BOI and that will be allowed by you as a person representing the board as a fact even without the names of the people suppling the information.

I'm cool with that,
Adam Block

 

[HerpVenue]

Okay we are on the bargaining table.

First you gotta understand.
I speak for myself and no one.
I do not speak as a representative of this site.
I stand on my own in everything I do.
I stand on what I think is right.
I am not standing for anyone or anysite.

Second, before we go further.
You gotta get me a total body count of How many animals have supposedly died after being bought from Nerd.

Meaning How many animals you can prove have died....NOT a percentage.

Let me start the list.
Two Pastel ball pythons

 

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

Second, before we go further.
You gotta get me a total body count of How many animals have supposedly died after being bought from Nerd.

Meaning How many animals you can prove have died....NOT a percentage.

One BIG problem with this bargain. How in the heall are you going to prove that whatever numbers of animals that died are the fault of NERD? Adam can't even prove that it is NERD's fault that his animal died. Yes, he has a necropsy report, but it is lacking in the key details (HOW IT GOT GOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE). No offense Adam, but it still could have been your fault though no errors on you ability as a herper, but simply that the animal didn't like the cage you had it in. Therefore, didn't drink and developed gout. Heck it could have been as simple as the water bowl was a different color and it scared it. You or anyone on this board can't prove otherwise. So how on earth are you going to PROVE that any of the reported animals that may have died from NERD are NERD's fault? Even Ritchie can't prove that by calling all the previous dead snake owners. Without any GENETICS report to link the cause of death to an inferior lineage, you are grasping at straws that don't mean jack.

If you really want to see my point, lets use Ben Siegle's name in place of NERDS. (sorry Ben) How many animals daily does he sell? How many of that number die for any multitude of reasons? Now by your logic it is Ben's fault that they are dead. So we all should go after Ben and blame poor genetics as the cause even though we can't prove it. Hey Ben, J.Puker sold me an infected puking snake that in turn infected an animal I got from you. Your animals are genetically weak because they couldn't resist the j.puker factor and I want my money back 6 months after the sale. Starting to see how this looks Adam.


After 2 months in your care it is your fault and responsibility like it or not.

Let me repeat that so you don't miss it.

AFTER 2 MONTHS IN YOUR CARE, IT IS YOUR FAULT THE ANIMAL DIED, NOT NERD'S.

I know it's a hard lump to swallow, but that's how almost everyone on this board sees it. You are well beyond the dates of any refund or replacement. Sorry dude, but that's that.

 

[Adam Block]

Proof has nothing to do with it here. In this case we're talking aobut shear numbers. One or two people and it could be their care. You start getting a body count of over a dozen and it's hard to pawn off on the care of all these buyers.

Ritchie, this works for me so far. But, I want to hear from the webslave the post from you will be allowed even though it will contain third party info and no names. Nobody will talk about NERD on the record.

If you're cool with that call me and I'll give you all the info you need.

Adam Block

 

[WebSlave]

It's OK with me, but will everyone else go along with this? If Ritchie Luna states that he has gotten information from sources that he cannot reveal will that be acceptable to everyone else?

I guess Adam is calling on a vote of confidence for Ritchie here.

 

[HerpVenue]

Hey I want a body count before proceeding any further.
I will do the necessary detective work....I will ask the necessarry questions.
I want a body count. not over half a dozen.
because as we have seen time and again.
over half a dozen can mean seven or it can mean 10,000 I will not fall for it again.

Write it in here and tell me of all the people you contacted....what is the total body count you got.

Then we can proceed no phone calls Adam.
It will turn into a big he said she said.

you said yourself. write it in here.