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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All of us have offered a helping hand to this 14 year old, and he has yet to take a stand and accept the vast knowledge of this board.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I wouldnt say that.  In fact I think you are very wrong.  He and I have been in contact via emails and has asked for help and got it.  No money issues, smart ass comments only free flow of questions and advice.  He is trying so let him.  All of you give him some time to correct the issues at hand.  

Dont you think it might be entirely possible that he got them in that condition from another dealer?  And was given bad advice on husbandry from same dealer if any at all?

Perhaps it was in the delivery of your offer or the mood of the thread you guys where replying to that made him skeptical of your intentions. For example read Brianb's extremely condosending approach on giving advice.  Do you really think anyone would listen to that negetivity and follow it?  I sure as he!! wouldnt.  Would any of you? NO.

Not to mention statements as absurd and far fetched as this</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">he along with others like him to lead to the ultimate collapse of the hobby with help from outside organizations (HSUS).
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
could be the very reason he was put on the defensive right from the start.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know your reading this now Randy and I would still like to extend a helping hand if you will accept. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Randy,
Take Mike up on this offer.  You wont find anyone better suited to help and deal with the health problems than these guys.  They can be trusted and they know far more about gexs than I do.



Let the beatings commence...........
 
When he was first offered help before any of the posts attacking him he was defensive then.  Also when Ritchie posted about his asking for savannah monitors he said he never did, well now there are 2 posts from him asking for them.  He has said he has experience with them but he first said his mother wouldn't get one for him.  This was when he first started asking for free herps.  I said before his response to me by e-mail was nice enough.  But he has lied about some things and responded harshly to people who were trying to help.  I think that's all people are seeing, if would get on here and post and say where they came from and what advice he was given then maybe everyone would understand a little better.  On his website he has one that was given to him by a friends dad, the two missing tails because of fighting while in his care, one he says has white feet not shed, and then proceeds to say he has to take care of that problem.  This is what people are seeing, what else are they to go by?  I agree some of the responses were harsh but at first they weren't and those didn't seem to help either.
 
Thanks Jeff, but the fact remains he has listened to everyone and is making an effort to make things right.  A fact that some of you are either unaware of or just missed.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You know how to reach me so feel free...Mike</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
He will be getting in contact with you Mike.
 
ok
um for one thing
my mom wont get me any lizard or any thing she wont fund me at all
i have put over 500 dollars into my lizards caging an feeding

i once had a savanah moniter i bought my self
but it died at the age of 3 when it tryed braking out of his cage an broke his leg

i was considering  another but have mad several posts saying i am only doing leos

i have contacted sereral peopl that have made posts and have been follwing there leads
i have contacted mike about his manual and sulies and have read his intier care sheet already

wut more am i suposed to do like you all said it takes time for them to faten up an become healthy
and i belive i am trying an evey one in contact with me that has really mad contact now thinks so too
so if there is any thing else please post it an i will correct wut i can
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

my geckos are fine
they have no skin on ther bodys any more
and the only pic that does is the old one

my geckos are fed plenty
they get like 10 buck s woths of food a week between wax worms and super meal worms

fly down here cause u cant tell how skinny somthing is when the pic is takin with a crapy camera

</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
no i said the camra suxed n mad them look skinny er in tail an body cause the
zoom is messed up
the geckos i have dont have skin on them other than the old pic i cant see
any in the pics either
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

These were emails sent to me by lepgex14 trying to explain that the reason his animals look so skinny and emaciated is because of his 'crappy camra' because 'the zoom is messed up'.  Sorry, but I can't imagine how the world must look to someone whom thinks a lie like that will be believable to someone else.  Obviously it sounds believable to him, so he expects it will to everyone else as well.

A camera and zoom combination that would make people look thinner would be a big hit in the marketplace, so perhaps he should redirect his efforts at buying more of those cameras and selling them.

How many times have we seen people on this board whom have tried to lie that foot out of their mouth?  This is not a bashing, but an honest assessment of this person's image he has presented here.  In my opinion, he is trying to get animals as cheaply as possible (free, if he can), put nothing into the care of them, and then sell them at a profit.  Truth be told, I wouldn't be at all surprised if those animals were given to him by other people that didn't or couldn't care for them properly and he just is not owning up to this fact.  He just wants to sell them, not care for them.

Personally, I don't care what his family life is like, nor what his situation is outside of what I can see in those photos of how he is 'taking care' of those animals.  The simple fact that he would take photos of them and post them to the public is very strong evidence that he does not even know what poor shape they are in, and believes they are good enough to be sold to someone else.  That tells volumes about his experience level and attitude about this.  And I don't care if he is 14 years old, 8 years old, or 65 years old.  The fact remains that he is trying to engage in business on the internet with poorly maintained animals, telling stories at every turn to put the blame elsewhere, and either completely ignoring what we are telling him, or unable to comprehend what it is we are saying.

If the Board of Inquiry is successful in keeping him from selling his animals to an unwary person, or slaps him in the face hard enough that he turns around his husbandry practices to the benefit of those animals, then it will have served its purpose.

IMHO
 
[QUOwut more am i suposed to do like you all said it takes time for them to faten up an become healthy
and i belive i am trying an evey one in contact with me that has really mad contact now thinks so too
so if there is any thing else please post it an i will correct wut i can
TE]

Stop trying to sell them, that's all
 
ok if u r posting because i am trying to sell u r here for the rong reason this is a new post from the beware or lep gex14 post

showing my fater then be4 geckos
not saying they are totally healthy
but they are better then b4

so check your facts

because by wut u said u obviously dont have the right ones
 
Your website is still up.  I didn't say this thread was about selling.  You asked what else could you do, I responded.  The fact remains, the threads are about the poorly cared for animals.  Said animals are still for sale on your site.  That was what I was talking about.  If you must try to sell them, do so when they are healthy.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">: All of us have offered a helping hand to this 14 year old, and he has yet to take a stand and accept the vast knowledge of this board.

I wouldn’t say that.  In fact I think you are very wrong.  He and I have been in contact via emails and, has asked for help and got it.  No money issues, smart ass comments only free flow of questions and advice.  He is trying so, let him.  All of you give him some time to correct the issues at hand.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

He is still offering them for sale on his website!  He still claims to have high quality parasite free leos.  He is lying left in right trying to cover his tracks so he doesn't look like the bad guy.  When was the last time any of these leos have been to the vet or have had fecal exams, I doubt they ever were.  Yet, they are all parasite free.  He will not admit he husbandry care was flawed.  It is great he is trying to get better, but point blank, don't offer unhealthy animals for sale!
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not to mention statements as absurd and far fetched as this Quote  

he along with others like him to lead to the ultimate collapse of the hobby with help from outside organizations (HSUS).

Could be the very reason he was put on the defensive right from the start.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I wouldn’t say this quote is that far fetched.  Various organizations throughout the world are using irresponsible and uneducated hobbyists like this as their "Poster Children" to ban keeping reptiles altogether.  Every year we are in a everlasting fight to keep our right to keep reptiles and other exotics within captivity.
 
Everyone knows I'm an Arboreal snake guy, so when it comes to gexs I have no clue.  So could someone tell me what is wrong with this one?
p1010440.jpg


And even this one?
p1010380.jpg
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For example read Brianb's extremely condosending approach on giving advice.  Do you really think anyone would listen to that negetivity and follow it?  I sure as he!! wouldnt.  Would any of you? NO.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I was giving honest advice.  Or do you think that he's capable of rehabbing that many animals?  He's not even capable of seeing that the animals he's got up for sale aren't in condition to be sold, or doesn't care.

Do you think that advising someone to get help for their animals and start over in a responsible manner is condescending?  Too bad, then, go grow thicker skin.
 
One more thing for Tim: Would you sell this kid one of your animals?  If yes, why, if no, why not?
 
Well Brian,
I seriously doubt if he could afford one.  So its a mute point to me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you think that advising someone to get help for their animals and start over in a responsible manner is condescending?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Nope, its all in how you stated it.  Do you really find the need to be prick in every post you make?  How is that beneficial to this kid at this point?  Other than making you feel like you are superior.  Paaleeeeease  He has opened the door to being taught and is willing to listen to good advice, but that's no open door to be a smarta$$ to him about it.  

Since you seem to know it all and what is right and wrong answer my post about the two gexs I pictured.
 
Why don't you grow up, and point out what you found condescending in my post?  Tell me what you didn't like, and I'll either apologize for using such prick-like language, or I'll explain to you why I don't think it was prick-like.

Or is namecalling more your style?

BTW, it's "moot point" not "mute point", and the question wasn't whether you thought he could afford your animals, but whether you'd trust him with one.  You haven't asnwered that question.

As to your post with the two leos, you've not chosen the worse animals on his site, so it's an intellectually dishonest question, but I'll answer it anyway.

The top pic, the animal appears to be a healthy juvenile, but it's not a good enough picture to assess the condition of the animal, and no history is given.  It's a bull#### question.

The second pic, the animal has been suffering from bad sheds, look at the toes.

You're defending a weak position, and namecalling doesn't help you one bit.
 
I think we are getting a little off topic here.  What I believe Tim's real concern and mine is the welfare of the animals, which is the most important factor at this point.  I don't think it's feasible to say Randy is going to give up all his geckos and throw away all his cages and things related, so maybe its best we try to eduacate this kid as a whole in the community even as reluctant as he might have been.  At this point I think it's certain that noone will buy or sell to him until he flys right, and learns proper husbandry for the species he keeps, so once again the BOI has done it's job.  But let's take it to a higher level now and educate this kid as he obviously has interest in reptiles one way or another ,and will most likely keep them one way or another, so let's attempt to help him.  I know a lot of people here have offered help and he has refused or not really known how to take it, but noone is a lost cause.  I have been in contact a few times with Randy today and he seems to want to learn and nurse these geckos back to health.  I told him I would like to speak to his parents before I can send any medications and need their consent to do so.  When I speak to them, I will with candor and seriousness to convey everyones concerns for the welfare of the animals he has and relay their thoughts to you all.   I know a lot of people won't follow me on this, but these are my own thoughts right or wrong.  Thanks for listening...Michael
 
Also, Tim, you're not the only one who has had an e-mail exchange with the kid.

There is a reason that I gave the advice I did:  I don't think he's ready to rehab the animals that need it at this point without hands-on supervision.  If he was in my area, I'd help him out in person, but he just doesn't seem capable of recieving this type of help via e-mail or forum.  He's off to a very bad start.   Notice also that I didn't come down on him and tell him he's some kind of monster who shouldn't be allowed to keep reptiles.  I told him to start over, slowly.

Here's our correspondence, which I dind't feel was at all relevent to this thread, and didn't post b/c it doesn't show him in a good light.  Guess since I'm being accused of being a "prick" by a "big dog" like Tim, I'd better show you all what I've kept private between me and LepGex14, so maybe you "big dogs" over there in Ohio can take pitty on me and realize that it wasn't said without a reason, merely after consideration of where I think this kid is at in terms of his maturity and knowledge:

(next post, I think they exceed the character limit)
 
The last couple exchanges.


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i will email em or post em wut u think is best
i am gana a get som veilds but they are gana go inside this time cause i got them eaten by a rat last time
be4 i could breed
i currently have leos days, mud turtles and house geckos
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
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On Thursday 25 July 2002 06:06 pm, you wrote:
> i will email em or post em wut u think is best
> i am gana a get som veilds but they are gana go inside this time cause i
> got them eaten by a rat last time be4 i could breed
> i currently have leos days, mud turtles and house geckos

First, stop buying reptiles until you learn more about those you already own.
Chameleons require difficult care and a lot of time.  Suggest you get your
leos in shape and concentrate on learning more about husbandry from your
other animals.  Forum is probably best, and shoot for better grammar and
spelling so you get answers that aren't just people telling you to improve
your spelling and grammar.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

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heh thanx
but i know about camillions i have had them b4 but the dame rat out side eat
him
so now i keeping them inside
i mad a drip system with my dad with som sprinkler parts and a milk carton
but i m not buying any thing and i have improved my leos in the month since i
took the pic
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why don't you grow up, and point out what you found condescending in my post?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Definition of condescending:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW, it's "moot point" not "mute point", and the question wasn't whether you thought he could afford your animals, but whether you'd trust him with one.  You haven't asnwered that question.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

You answered the question yourself, Brian.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The top pic, the animal appears to be a healthy juvenile, but it's not a good enough picture to assess the condition of the animal, and no history is given.  It's a bull#### question.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The second pic, the animal has been suffering from bad sheds, look at the toes.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Both pics look to be of the same quality and type. Neither pic gives a history of the animal pictured. So how did you deduce that the first pic was not good enough to assess the animals' condition? And how did you deduce that the second pic was sufficient to formulate a diagnosis of the condition of the second animal?

Brian,

YOU are the weakest link. Goodbye.

Tim,

I still think you're backing the wrong pony on this one.
 
Tim,

Do you not see the start of a little Joe P? Only looking out for the $ and selling sick animals? Stories and flip flopping lies? <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

I say nip it in the bud now before it becomes a major problem if it's not already (rat ate my chameleon? damn)
 
Michael,

I agree that the most important thing is to look after the health of the animals.

I agree that he's not likely to put his animals where they can recieve rehab, or get rid of his equipment.  

What I don't agree with is the idea that this kid can rehab his geckos without direct supervision.   I'm well aware that he's recieving advice on their care from others on the forum, and have encouraged him to listen to that advice.

The only problem aside from not believing that LepGex14 is capable of listening to advice here, is that he'll need to spend money to rehab those animals that need extra attention, and that it should be done under the guidance of a veterinarian.   I'm 99% certain that it's not going ot happen that way, though.  

So, what's in the best interest of the animals? Trying to locate a reptile shelter who can rehab them, or hoping that this kid can follow directions without direct supervision?

It's not an easy question to answer.  I did come up with the answer that best fits the situation, although I know it's not going to be followed.  If anyone disagrees with that answer, that's fine, that's what the board is for, different points of view.  However, I did not attack the kid, and I don't expect to be attacked by Tim in his defense.
 
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