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AV negative Breeders

JimD said:
Wilomn.
If I was child like yourself I might get upset about your name calling.
If you have nothing to add to this post, start something in the BOI so we can act like children.
Thanks.
Jim.
Click to expand...

Jim,
If we all try to take a step back here and calm down, we may be able to help each other.
I can say that all the dragons in my home are currently testing negative for AV. Does that mean my colony is AV free? No, it does not. It means that I need to continue testing, because a negative test or two does not mean that AV isn't present.
Threads like this are going to discourage people from testing. Do we know for sure that ALL BD's have AV? No, we don't. We know that the numbers are discouraging, but right now, we don't know what is possible with further testing, and that HAS to be the point, right?
No one, not one person, can claim right now to have an AV free colony because there simply isn't enough information to base that statement on.
Cheri has a right to her OPINION the same way you have a right to yours, lets just stop the attacks and try to work together.

Look, I'm fairly convinced at this point that the more I test, and I plan on doing it twice a year from here on out, the more dragons I'll have that test positive for this virus, but I don't know that for a fact either and I won't until I do the tests. That is the absolute, unvarnished truth. I also believe that I have a responsibility to inform people of that, because there are no guarantees right now.
I also know there are other people with negative dragons in their collections, and right now, we're just going to have to wait and see what happens with them. If they continue to test negative, and better yet, if they have babies that test negative and continue to test negative, we MIGHT get answers from them we DON'T have right now. Until then, this whole thread is pretty useless.
 
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RAWDOG said:
You are wrong and I am pointing that out to the readers. The fact that I extract DNA everyday from breast biopsies from patients in clinical trials makes me pretty well qualified to answer this question. I refuse to get involved in the drama but I will be a resource for scientific information.
Click to expand...


So your a lab technician?

So you process biopsy samples.

That's a far cry from performing an actual biopsy.

In which case I'd say your about as qualified to comment on the technical complexities and risks asscoiated with needle biopsies as the next lay person.
 
So your a lab technician?

So you process biopsy samples.

That's a far cry from performing an actual biopsy.
Click to expand...

Well you asked!! I am a Research Scientist and I develop novel/esoteric diagnostic tests for the largest Clinical Diagnostic Company in the world. I am published, I have presented at several conferences. In fact maybe you can check out the paper I co-authored this month in Microbiology.

In which case I'd say your about as qualified to comment on the technical complexities and risks asscoiated with needle biopsies as the next lay person.
Click to expand...

Who commented on the technical complexities and risks associated with needle biopsies. I merely posted several references that said exactly the opposite of what your friend said.

You can say whatever you would like and that is your opinion. Since I do not know you and you have not written anything intelligent to add to this conversation then your opinion is unimportant to me as well as others trying to learn.

For the interested readers I spent over four years doing small animal surgeries(including biopsies).

Since you questioned my scientific background I would like to question yours and your ability to pose relevant questions and provide some pertinent information to the conversation? If you cannot provide any then please kindly exit the conversation. People are trying to learn, including me and you are halting that process. Anybody who would like to have a productive conversation about locating Adenovirus negative colonies please continue.
 
Look Dawg,

I am trying to stay out of this thread, but you keep saying I am wrong. What was I wrong about? You never said EXACTLY WHAT I WAS WRONG ABOUT. Please tell me what I was wrong about. First you said I was biased and couldnt back it up, then that I was wrong, but not what about. So please back up your accusations.

Wrong about what? What tests CheriS was referring to? GO ASK HER WHAT SHE WAS REFERRING TO IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME.

About liver biopsies in live small animals.... MY VET PERSONALLY TOLD ME THAT IN MANY SMALL ANIMALS THE PROCEDURE CAN BE FATAL.

And testing the liver of a dead animal may not be called a liver biopsy, if I am wrong about that then excuse me. But I dont know every medical term in the book.
 
Well, someone stated that she knew of 2 better tests than the nested PCR, for detecting AV in beardies. That's what got these festivities going, and since she's currently absent, it led to speculation (including from myself), what those might be.

I don't know the answers, But I agree that a civil discourse would be nice.
 
Jim,

I gave a simple solution for folks to get clarification about those tests. To email her, [email protected] , and ask her. Yet not one person has done so. Why? If people really wanted the facts about what she was saying you would think they would email her. Guess the facts were not their primary reason for being here.

Dawg,

I have now asked you twice to back up your accusations about what I was wrong about. Both times now you have completely avoided answering. Why? Dont you think you should back up your accusations?
 
Two things:

Sammy, I don't think the remark about being biased was directed at you.

He was disagreeing with your statement that liver biopsies can't be performed on small animals. I wouldn't have thought so, either, but obviously they can.
 
jsrocket said:
Two things:

Sammy, I don't think the remark about being biased was directed at you.

He was disagreeing with your statement that liver biopsies can't be performed on small animals. I wouldn't have thought so, either, but obviously they can.
Click to expand...

Jim, I NEVER said cant. I said on MOST small animals that procedure itself could kill the animal.
 
jsrocket said:
Then, I think it was a simple misunderstanding.
Click to expand...

I am more than willing to accept that. If he would just say that instead of repeatedly posting that I am wrong, but not saying what I am wrong about.

I aint some hard headed ego maniac that cant admit when they are wrong. I just want to know what I am wrong about.
 
I will ask before I steal

Vicki or someone...can I pirate your webpage on AV to put information on my website? Can I just take the links and everything so I don't have to do it myself? I will frighten everyone with my pessimistic attitude if I write it.
 
JimD, is not that bad of a guy, I talked with him on the phone, IMO, he is just looking for answers like everyone else.

That said, Jim I have talked to a few breeders in the last few days that do have 100% clean dragons.

The paper that was made, someone said it was 500 tests. Now we do know people were collecting infected dragons for testing, that is why I asked how many tests different people submitted to them. I don't think we will ever get the true answer, but if they submitted a very high number that were already positive, that would make the % climb above the norm.
 
People collecting infected dragons for testing did not test through Florida, they tested through IL by EM.

Most of the submissions to Florida were asymptomatic as is noted by the veterinarian in the document. It was not 500 tests it was much more, that number alone was accomplished in the last few months. This was an accumulation of submissions from 2003 to March 29, 2007, most were colony testing of healthy dragons again noted in the paper by the author. This is your norm.
 
draggintails said:
People collecting infected dragons for testing did not test through Florida, they tested through IL by EM.

Most of the submissions to Florida were asymptomatic as is noted by the veterinarian in the document. It was not 500 tests it was much more, that number alone was accomplished in the last few months. This was an accumulation of submissions from 2003 to March 29, 2007, most were colony testing of healthy dragons again noted in the paper by the author. This is your norm.
Click to expand...


It just seems to me a small number compared to how many dragons are living in the U.S. alone. How many dragons are out there that have not been tested by them? 1,000,000 or more?
 
More people are testing by PCR than by EM and at Florida they have a good enough number to represent the current status and make a statement or the document would be held up in legal.

Everyone should still try to test their animals..it is a hardship I know, but it would give us an even better idea where we stand for the stats in 2008. Keeping records is a great idea from one poster. If the Dachius are doing testing on intermittent shedding..maybe that could help us with why, how, when, under what circumstances, do they ever stop shedding, shed forever, why shed today and not tomorrow..the frustrating questions......and that could be another valuable piece of information for the researchers and us.

Dr. Wagner and Dr. Wellahen (never spell his name right) are co-chairing the lecture on bearded dragon AV next week.....so they were nice enough to give us the status information before they present it at the lecture. I can not attend, but I can order a transcription and figure out how to post a long document when I get it..we have to make sure it will not take up too much room on the forums first.
 
RAWDOG said:
Well you asked!! I am a Research Scientist and I develop novel/esoteric diagnostic tests for the largest Clinical Diagnostic Company in the world. I am published, I have presented at several conferences. In fact maybe you can check out the paper I co-authored this month in Microbiology.



Who commented on the technical complexities and risks associated with needle biopsies. I merely posted several references that said exactly the opposite of what your friend said.

You can say whatever you would like and that is your opinion. Since I do not know you and you have not written anything intelligent to add to this conversation then your opinion is unimportant to me as well as others trying to learn.

For the interested readers I spent over four years doing small animal surgeries(including biopsies).

Since you questioned my scientific background I would like to question yours and your ability to pose relevant questions and provide some pertinent information to the conversation? If you cannot provide any then please kindly exit the conversation. People are trying to learn, including me and you are halting that process. Anybody who would like to have a productive conversation about locating Adenovirus negative colonies please continue.
Click to expand...

You were indeed commenting on biopsy procedures.

Are you a DVM, MD?

I'm guessing not.

In which case your experience with small animal surgeries (btw - how many of which were on bearded dragons) is irrelevant since there is no basis for establishing that you are indeed competent to perform such procedures.

Halting the process?

Hardly. I'm pointing out that you are ill qualified to comment on surgical procedures (including biopsies) because you are merely a lab technician.
 
varnyard said:
It just seems to me a small number compared to how many dragons are living in the U.S. alone. How many dragons are out there that have not been tested by them? 1,000,000 or more?
Click to expand...

You're right, Bobby. And those were not a scientific sample. However, keep in mind that a general projection CAN be done with research. As far as I know, nobody has actually done that yet.

You can make very accurate estimations, testing only a small percentage.
 
Thanks Tammy!!

It just seemed odd to me that they made that claim on a few animals compared to how many are out there.

I do wish the best for the beardie community. I do hope than can find a cure, so beardies will not have this dark cloud over them.

It would be sad if it was any animal had this, but almost everyone loves a beardie. I like the tegus much more myself, but ya gotta love that face on them beardies. ;)
 
varnyard said:
Thanks Tammy!!

It just seemed odd to me that they made that claim on a few animals compared to how many are out there.

I do wish the best for the beardie community. I do hope than can find a cure, so beardies will not have this dark cloud over them.

It would be sad if it was any animal had this, but almost everyone loves a beardie. I like the tegus much more myself, but ya gotta love that face on them beardies. ;)
Click to expand...

Hopefully the information out of U of Florida will convince people to test. Unfortunately, some people are taking the stance that since the number of positives is so high, that further testing is expensive and not necessary, but without more people getting involved, its always going to be a relatively small testing pool.

Tegu's are certainly fascinating and beautiful animals, but in terms of sheer cuteness, baby beardies are tops in my book. I've watched the video on the Tegu forum about 10 times now, and I admit that I'm more blown away each time, what fantastic creatures they are!
 
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