Bad Guy Avoid Steven Patterson (Apex Reptile Center) at all costs!

[radiant dragons]

Post #47 and #48 you said No to if you opened the lid to look at them , I'm confused , aside from the tail injury they look great at what point did you weigh them

 

[Billy1138]

I don't tend to see aesthetics as being particularly unimportant. At the very least, it's a matter of principle. Paying for one thing and receiving another shouldn't be acceptable. Assuming that that's what happened here.

I agree with you, Dan. That's why I was asking. I didn't know if there was another issue for the OP besides this. Thanks man

 

[AphroditeGeckos]

Radiant Dragons,
i didn't open the lids. Can you not look at them without opening the lids? Hence why I said not in detail, because I didn't open the lids. and I weighed them when I got home after I ate.

I just tried feeding the male again and he started eating like crazy. He had a bottle cap full of food and he didn't touch it so I took it out yesterday and offered him a couple small crickets and he didn't want them. Guess today is just a good day for him to eat.

 

[radiant dragons]

Sorry post #1 you weighed them as soon as you got home.

 

[Mistyck]

Sorry post #1 you weighed them as soon as you got home.

No actually she didn't. She didn't bother taking them out of the deli cups until a few hours after obtaining them. She did errands first, and then came home and ate dinner, and then she went and took them out of their cups and looked them over.

Though in her first post she does say she weighed them right when she got home:

I am very new to Crested Geckos and I just started getting into them. I have been doing a ton of research and talking to a bunch of crested gecko breeders.

The female was advertised as just about ready to breed and she is 25 grams (I weighed her when I got her home)

In a subsequent post, she admits that she didn't take them home for at least 2 hours, and then when she got home she ate dinner. Then she decided to look at them and weigh them:

I didn't even take them out of their deli cups or look at them because I was running errands so they were sitting on the back seat of my aunts car while we went doing our errands and we were gone for a good 2 hours and then when I got home I had to eat dinner so they sat on my bed THEN I went and looked at them and weighed them, then noticing that the male's tail was all crooked when I put him on the scale.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Mistyck if you look at the darn pictures. It says that HIS picture was taken on FEBRUARY 10th! MY picture was taken on February 12th the day he DELIVERED. You still keep thinking that his picture was taken the day he delivered it WASN'T. Get it?

You DID NOT look at the gecko when you received him. Period.
What part of that are you not getting?
Could it have been there when you received him? Yes.
Can you be certain? No

IMO, you have no proof that the seller intentionally sold you a kinked gecko.

Then, there is this LIE.

I am very new to Crested Geckos and I just started getting into them. I have been doing a ton of research and talking to a bunch of crested gecko breeders. I got a couple breeding pairs from a friend who is local to me so she is always there to help me. ANYWAY, I bought a pair of what was described in their descriptions as Extreme Harlequins from Apex Reptile Center on Facebook ran by Steven Patterson.

It is an outright lie, according to the proof YOU posted in the form of the ad.

You no longer have any credibility with me.

 

[ElexisC]

You DID NOT look at the gecko when you received him. Period.
What part of that are you not getting?
Could it have been there when you received him? Yes.
Can you be certain? No

IMO, you have no proof that the seller intentionally sold you a kinked gecko.

Then, there is this LIE.



It is an outright lie, according to the proof YOU posted in the form of the ad.

You no longer have any credibility with me.

Actually apex did say they were sold to him as extremes and that's what he sold them as, this was earlier in the post. Maybe it doesn't say it on that exact ad but it was said that he sold them as extremes.

 

[ElexisC]

It's funny how everyone is attacking this girl. This is why I don't post much on the boi. Like someone else said when an animal is shipped it spends at least 12 hours in that deli cup, so what is a couple hours while it's in a heated car? And I fail to see how it can get kinked in a smooth round cup. But it seems like unless you do things exactly how yall do you're a bad person. There might not be sufficient proof it happened from the seller but to attack this girl because she had a gecko in a cup for maybe 3 hours is ridiculous. Yea most of us would run straight home but that doesn't mean she has to. Again an animal that is shipped is in that cup for at least 12 hours!

 

[AphroditeGeckos]

ElexisOrtiz,
THANK YOU. FINALLY SOMEONE WHO GETS IT!

 

[AphroditeGeckos]

Snake-Queen what on earth are you talking about? That picture of the harley male is not who i bought, you just made yourself look so ignorant right now.

 

[AphroditeGeckos]

I posted the screen shot of the male I bought. That screen shot was of the male with floppy tail syndrome

 

[Snake-Queen]

I posted the screen shot of the male I bought. That screen shot was of the male with floppy tail syndrome

So you are now an expert on crested geckos? You can tell from a picture that gecko has FTS?
Oh, wait! Your "friend" is an expert, who has yet to chime in.
Facebook is not a reliable source and I do not consider screenshots as proof.

Snake-Queen what on earth are you talking about? That picture of the harley male is not who i bought, you just made yourself look so ignorant right now.

Ignorant, maybe of crested geckos ... but smart enough to know that if I have geckos in my possession, that I am going to get them settled in as soon as possible & not drive around with them for hours.

Any argument about shipping is null, these were not shipped. Picking them up in person is usually ideal, as the buyer can inspect them before taking final possession of them. The OP chose not to do so, instead, she put them in the back seat of a vehicle, in the winter time & ran errands. When returning home, instead of finally inspecting them, they are left on her bed while she ate dinner.

Where is this ad, that states it is an extreme? You have plenty of screenshots of ads that do not pertain to your sale.


You claim the seller doesn't care about his animals, yet it took you over 2 hours to settle in your new geckos.

I don't even care anymore.

Like I said in my last post, no need to respond anymore. This is over and done with, if I could delete it I would.

Yet, you continue responding ...

 

[AphroditeGeckos]

ya ya ya. I've read that over and over at this point ya'll are just boring me.

 

[Fangthane]

Snake-Queen what on earth are you talking about? That picture of the harley male is not who i bought.

Even to my untrained eye, they don't look remotely alike. You did label the picture as "FTS gecko."

You no longer have any credibility with me.

Is it a hit to one's credibility, being more interested in making a point that has no factual basis than they are in putting forth the effort to actually understand a given situation? If not, I'm thinking it should be..

It's funny how everyone is attacking this girl.

Yeah, I think this one got away from some of us. Some people will just do anything to avoid admitting that they were in the wrong.

What I think is funny, is that no one seems interested in the fact that it apparently took a BOI thread for the seller to even tacitly concede the possibility that the fault could have been on his end. OP seems to have done all she could to prove her case. Seller shows up with little more than platitudes about how he's not in it for the money; never had a bad transaction; etc. Yet he's the one that seems to come out of this smelling like a rose.

The kinked gecko spent two days - presumably in its own furnished enclosure - between when he supplied the last pictures and when he delievered; she had it in a deli cup - possibly furnished with a paper towel - for roughly 3 hours after picking it up. Certainly seems as if there's at least a pretty decent likelihood that the kink very well could have occurred while still in the seller's possession. I'm simply not seeing nearly enough context clues that come even close to pointing toward the OP being at fault. I think this one's a wash.

Any argument about shipping is null, these were not shipped. Picking them up in person is usually ideal, as the buyer can inspect them before taking final possession of them. The OP chose not to do so, instead, she put them in the back seat of a vehicle, in the winter time & ran errands. When returning home, instead of finally inspecting them, they are left on her bed while she ate dinner.

More of the grasping-at-imaginary-straws nonsense that made you look foolish to begin with. Since you're trying to paint the picture that 3 hours in a deli cup is somehow analogous to mistreatment, the points on shipping are absolutely valid. Not being an "ideal" scenario doesn't equate to being a bad one. Not even close.

They were sold to me as extreme Harley's from guyco geckos. Jon and Guy and good friends of mine so I know I did not represent the animal wrong, unless somehow they did.

Where is this ad, that states it is an extreme? You have plenty of screenshots of ads that do not pertain to your sale.

The seller admitted that he represented them as extremes. But it's okay, don't bother to actually read the thread. I'll do the work for you. Wouldn't want you to sprain anything while trying to fumble your way through what's been posted. You're welcome.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

ya ya ya. I've read that over and over at this point ya'll are just boring me.

Dan I appreciate that you're trying to be unbiased, and I think that that is important. However, I honestly haven't seen any proof of what the OP is claiming at all, and I have never gotten a snake shipped/picked up that I didn't IMMEDIATELY take out and look at to make sure it was completely healthy. It just sounds sketchy to me to get a brand new animal and not want to take it out and look at it. Especially as a new reptile owner, I wouldn't be able to wait to take them out and check them.

I have never had someone buy a snake from me that didn't want to just play with them and handle them as soon as they got them...I usually have to tell them to leave them alone for a few days so they can settle in. It just doesn't add up unless the OP is honestly completely indifferent as to their well-being and is only looking at this as a way to make some quick money breeding them. Am I making assumptions? Admittedly yes, but they're based on her attitude and the things that she has openly stated in this thread.

The quoted text I have used is about as good of an example as there is. Does this sound like a credible person you would trust in a "word against word" situation? If you do that's your business, but notice everyone refers to her as a "girl," not a "woman." There is a very good reason for that, and it's because she sounds like an irresponsible child who should probably not own animals.

 

[Fangthane]

It just sounds sketchy to me to get a brand new animal and not want to take it out and look at it. Especially as a new reptile owner, I wouldn't be able to wait to take them out and check them.

I'm also a pretty hands-on person, but what we're inclined to do isn't necessarily relevant here. Sensibilities vary. I think it's a huge stretch, to say that that equates to any degree of indifference to the animal's well-being. A clear deli cup gives a good enough view to see any major issues that would tend to jump out at someone. You can tell skin tone/hydration, level of alertness and activity, fat deposits, etc. I just don't believe that a possible deficit in a buyer's diligence shouldn't inherently pardon a seller who may have supplied a sub-par animal.

The quoted text I have used is about as good of an example as there is. Does this sound like a credible person you would trust in a "word against word" situation? If you do that's your business, but notice everyone refers to her as a "girl," not a "woman." There is a very good reason for that, and it's because she sounds like an irresponsible child who should probably not own animals.

Let's not pretend that there's no possible causality aspect to have brought about her attitude. There's a definite fluster-factor to these situations. Sometimes, it's just too hard to resist giving back what you're getting. All things considered, she's handled herself better than some seasoned vets that find their way onto the BOI. I get the impression that she's basically a total noob, which makes it hard for me to take her to task for lashing out at those who are going out of their way to avoid seeing any part of her side. And if I'm right about her noobness, it also becomes harder for me to justify kickign her in the nads for not doing everything exactly right, in regard to her immediate inspection or lack thereof. I've seen much worse from people who are still widely-respected.

Since you bring up one's tone, no issue with the F-bombs that the seller dropped in their correspondence? Although we don't have the whole convo, I do find it noteworthy that people who'd normally jump all over that are oddly silent about it. It's pretty rare that I find myself thinking that everyone's missed the whole point and went after someone who wasn't deserving of it. This is just one of the situations where that's exactly the conclusion that I've come to. As I'd already said, I'm just not seeing what most of you are.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Since you bring up one's tone, no issue with the F-bombs that the seller dropped in their correspondence? Although we don't have the whole convo, I do find it noteworthy that people who'd normally jump all over that are oddly silent about it. It's pretty rare that I find myself thinking that everyone's missed the whole point and went after someone who wasn't deserving of it. This is just one of the situations where that's exactly the conclusion that I've come to. As I'd already said, I'm just not seeing what most of you are.

The reason I had no issue with that is because somehow that's the only snippet we received from the buyer. I don't know about you, but at the point where I'm mad enough to say something like that, someone has pushed me pretty far. It's interesting to me that the buyer "conveniently" left out whatever she said before that led him to that point. Seems a little too obvious to me.

I think that you're right in remaining skeptical, and unfortunately this happens in BOI posts a lot...it's easier to jump on the moving train than to get it to change directions. Her attitude and the way she has responded (or intentionally not responded) to people's questions is what makes me have little sympathy for her...I think that's where a lot of other people who would normally remain neutral in this situation are also sitting.

I think you're spot on with your observations and points you've made in your posts, but everything she has said has caused me to question her tremendously. And I understand your point with the shipping, but you really can't compare the two...no one WANTS to leave a reptile in a box for 12 hours, it's a necessary thing to get them safely to their new owner. Intentionally leaving them in a deli cup on the back seat of a car for 3 hours instead of getting them into a proper habitat, when you have full ability to do so, is extremely irresponsible. I just can't imagine doing that to an animal I care about.

Oh, and the whole "demented grandmother" who they have to do whatever she says or she flips out and they have to fear for their life, and that's why she has to drive around with reptiles in the back seat? Come on.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

There's a definite fluster-factor to these situations. Sometimes, it's just too hard to resist giving back what you're getting. All things considered, she's handled herself better than some seasoned vets that find their way onto the BOI.

I entirely agree with this statement...I've seen people completely lose it on here when they come under question. Keep in mind though, those are the same people who end up getting blacklisted because you see what type of person they really are.

If you can't keep your cool under questioning, reason leads me to think that you're either being dishonest, have something to hide, or don't want to admit you did something wrong. I didn't see anyone push her so far that she would snap for no reason, but she has anyway (to some extent). You're right, that doesn't excuse a poor seller, but we really haven't seen any proof that the little guy arrived with a kinked tail...only that now he has a kink. When and how it happened, we don't know, and she hasn't provided proof to say it was the seller other than that "he must have done it because he was in a hurry." That's just not enough for me.

I have seen her make empty claims, such as how he's a terrible breeder and stunted the males growth by letting him get his rocks off once. Then people repeatedly ask if he's eating and she completely avoids the question so that she won't look dumb. Too many little things that rub me the wrong way.

 

[Fangthane]

The reason I had no issue with that is because somehow that's the only snippet we received from the buyer.

Actually, there are several snippets of their conversations posted in this thread. Really look through this thread and tell me it's not uncanny how people are managing to miss so much. It's not even a very long thread, and so much is being conveniently overlooked. Anyway, none of the snippets that I've seen have shown the buyer to be even slightly aggressive. The seller said that she was "extremely rude" to him. Where's his proof that what she said justified his response? Why is no one clamoring for that? See, that's part of my point. People seem to be going out of their way to focus on OP's words with extreme prejudice, but the seller is somehow free from the need to back up what he says. It seems to have been decided that somehow the OP was the default loser nearly from the beginning. This seems like the BOI thread from Bizarro World.

Intentionally leaving them in a deli cup on the back seat of a car for 3 hours instead of getting them into a proper habitat, when you have full ability to do so, is extremely irresponsible.

Guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. No one's presented a single point that makes me reconsider my absolute belief that some of you are seriously reaching for what's not there. We're clearly seeing two entirely different things here.

Oh, and the whole "demented grandmother" who they have to do whatever she says or she flips out and they have to fear for their life, and that's why she has to drive around with reptiles in the back seat? Come on.

My specific living situation allows me to see what she's said as an extremely plausible scenario. I'm by no means a weak-willed person, but living with those who have mental illnesses can work to derail your own life and make it more about them. If it's not something you've dealt with, count yourself lucky.

 

[Fangthane]

Keep in mind though, those are the same people who end up getting blacklisted because you see what type of person they really are.

Hardly. I've read an ungodly amount of these threads. As often as not, if people want what you're selling, it's amazing what they're willing to look past.

I didn't see anyone push her so far that she would snap for no reason, but she has anyway (to some extent).

What bends one man may just break another. However, I've yet to see this "snap." It comes across to me as little more than frustrated disbelief. But maybe I'm just projecting, much like many of you are doing.

I wasn't always calm and collected; I'm no stranger to actually snapping. I've felt the need to get fairly hostile over handling that wasn't much worse than what the OP's faced. Knowing that, is my integrity now in question?

Frankly, I don't really care enough about this dead horse to keep on flailing away at it. Me and mine will see things one way; you and yours have a different view. I do thank you for actually trying to have an intelligent, analytical discussion, though. It's more than can be reasonably expected from some.