Bad Guy Beware of Panther Company

[jishillencik]

It has been well over a day since the last post and several things still need to be addressed:

1) Does Panther Company have proof that customers with questionable lines have been notified of their mistake and not mislead??

2) Panther Company has yet to answer Lam Do's question that directly followed the quoted text

3) Has Panther Company any proof that they tried to contact the third party (or any other parties) to verify the lineage on the "Grimbold" females they purchased??

4) Why did Panther Company delete a single for sale ad (one that could potentially be viewed as evidence) and not other ads that were obviously priced to move from around the same time frame??

Panther Company has however provided baseless conjecture and a skillful demonstartion of manipulating the English language. (Fact)

Kudos.

We're up to 3,600 viewers. Are you sure you dont want to go through the hassle of providing evidence on your behalf?

 

[Panther Company]

Yes, you've all provided the important evidence -- we issue prompt and full refunds in the rare occasions that we make mistakes or otherwise end up with dissatisfied customers.

 

[jishillencik]

Yes, you've all provided the important evidence -- we issue prompt and full refunds in the rare occasions that we make mistakes or otherwise end up with dissatisfied customers.

I doubt you can say that with a clear conviction. All of these instances are with the males of the species and are much easier to differentiate between locales than the females. If it's "rare" for you to screw up labeling males at least 4 times in the past 6 months, how many females have been sold and are incorrectly labeled?

 

[choppers1]

What futile? U did ask Nick to confirm ur other screen shots

 

[Chamgirl88]

I purchased a female from Panther Co as well, I was never contacted by Josh nor Vinnie until I saw the threads on FB questioning the lineage and contacted them first, I had originally thought about a refund, then and exchange to which they offered a heavy discount if I kept the Banja female and purchased another female. I ultimately decided not to purchase another female from them nor send back the Cyclone/ "Grimbold" female. And I was never contacted (at all) stating that they switched the babies and she may be faly instead of banja. Which even tho I decided to keep her as a pet chameleon it would have been respectable of them to tell me of the "mishap"

 

[Panther Company]

I can.

1/ Females here are rarely separated of their baby tubs out into individual cages for being too big/aggressive, which was the start of our probably with the mislabeling an F1 Nosy Faly (who is awesome) as an Ambanja.

2/ The vast majority of people that bought Cyclone females were specifically looking for high white Ambanja. Grimbold added a very large x-factor, with no idea how the males would turn out -- so I could count the people that bought Cyclone X Grimbold females from the questionable clutch as being from specific lines is very small. Good number went as parts of 10 lots of 5.5 CB Ambanja (and yes, those types of buyers do often prefer multiple lines in the same lot of a given locale).

 

[Panther Company]

Trying again, with typos fixed.

I can.

1/ Females here are rarely separated from their baby tubs out into individual cages for being too big/aggressive, which was the start of our problem with the mislabeling an F1 Nosy Faly (who is awesome) as an Ambanja.

2/ The vast majority of people that bought Cyclone females were specifically looking for high white Ambanja. Grimbold added a very large x-factor, with no idea how the males would turn out -- so I could count the people that bought Cyclone X Grimbold females from the questionable clutch as being from specific on one hand (the number is very small). Good number went as parts of 10 lots of 5.5 CB Ambanja (and yes, those types of buyers do often prefer multiple lines in the same lot of a given locale).

 

[robmd1]

sorry dude your the only one whos bought an peddled crosses I got pams stuff when I got into chams so maybe before you start spewing you should actually know what your even talkin about. I know in the world of a liar like you the truth doesn't matter but to some of us it still does an that's why your graspin at straws as your ship sinks.. you really have zero clue what your even talking about you say pam has great lines but you posted in chams gone wild all mine are crosses? even when I provided pic prof of lineage going back generations its you has the prob with the truth an sellin crosses as pure locale not I this now 14 or 15 page thread is all about you no matter how you try an spin it.. lol

 

[Chamgirl88]

This is the email correspondence in the pictures as I can not make the writing any bigger it is in order newest emails to oldest (as it appears in the emails) so you have to read from bottom up, and Josh please feel free (and I encourage you or Vinnie to do so) to read in the entirety and please make screen shots of any part of the conversation that is missing as I am sure I have copied it as it appears in the emails:

RE: Jupiter‏
Amanda Russell
7/16/14
[Keep this message at the top of your inbox]
To: Panther Sales
[email protected]
We are going to pass on the Jupiter female and have decided to sell the Cyclone baby to a friend who has no interest in breeding.

Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 15:04:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Jupiter
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Yes. Another option I'd offer would be you keeping the Cyclone/"Gimbold" Ambanja female that you have, but us giving you a significant large ($130) discount from the regular price of Jupiter female, sending her for $100 shipped.

Thanks,

Vinnie


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Amanda Russell <[email protected]> wrote:

Alright I was wondering if My husband decides not to keep the Cyclone "Grimbold" baby if we would be able to return her and instead of a refund get a Jupiter female to replace her

Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 14:23:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Jupiter
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]


Hi Amanda,

The dam of the Jupiter babies that we have available currently came from Chameleon Paradise. Her sire was Chameleon Paradise's "Jake". Jake is F1, from WC parents -- you can find info on him here: http://www.chameleonparadise.net/gallery/ambilobe/jake/

Thanks,

Vinnie


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Amanda Russell <[email protected]> wrote:


Can you give me Lineage on the female he was paired with.

RE: Cyclone/Grimbold Female‏
Amanda Russell
7/10/14
[Keep this message at the top of your inbox]
To: Panther Sales
[email protected]
Have you received any information about the Cyclone x "Grimbold" girl that I purchased from you.

Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 16:45:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Cyclone/Grimbold Female
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Amanda,

We haven't gotten a response from the original seller, but I only just emailed him Tuesday night, after the concerns about Shauna's Cyclone/Grimbold boy were raised. I bought the females from him at the end of 2012, which is right around the time when he stopped frequenting the chameleon forums, so I figure I should give him a few days to respond. If he ends up being able to document his purchases from Kammer's, that will save a lot of stress for all involved.

Unfortunately, we didn't keep any of the males from the clutch that your female came, but there are some pictures of her oldest brother in this thread: http://www.chameleonforums.com/cyclone-baby-panther-company-125939/

If you would like a refund, we'll send you a prepaid shipping label for Fedex Priority overnight for you to ship her back to us, then issue a full refund, for the price of the animal plus the shipping cost you paid ($230), as soon as we receive her.

Thank you,

Josh




On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Amanda Russell <[email protected]> wrote:

Can you reveal the source that you purchased them from ,or have any pictures of her older male siblings? If I decided I wanted a refund how would that work, as I did purchase this girl with the expectations of the unique Grimbold colorings being present.

Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 13:24:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Cyclone/Grimbold Female
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]


HI Amanda,

Our concerns are with a specific female that was sold to us as Grimbold, along with 3 others (sold as sisters). The female that you received was from the pairing of Cyclone and a sister that produced males that we do believe show Grimbold traits clearly. That said, we did not buy these Grimbold females directly from the Kammers, but from another breeder on the forums, and as so such cannot guarantee any of the three are truly Grimbold. That said, we have not seen anything to suggest that any of the offspring are not pure Ambanja -- they just look more like typical wild ambanjas, as opposed to the unique Grimbold colors.

All of this said, given the situation, we will offer a full refund if you are dissatisfied or uncomfortable with the female we sold you.

Thank you,

Josh


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:52 PM, Amanda Russell <[email protected]> wrote:

I was wondering about the issues with the Cyclone/Grimbold lineage I purchased a female from that line. I purchased her on March 21,2014.

 

[jishillencik]

This is the email correspondence in the pictures as I can not make the writing any bigger it is in order newest emails to oldest (as it appears in the emails) so you have to read from bottom up, and Josh please feel free (and I encourage you or Vinnie to do so) to read in the entirety and please make screen shots of any part of the conversation that is missing as I am sure I have copied it as it appears in the emails:

RE: Jupiter‏
Amanda Russell
7/16/14
[Keep this message at the top of your inbox]
To: Panther Sales
[email protected]
We are going to pass on the Jupiter female and have decided to sell the Cyclone baby to a friend who has no interest in breeding.

Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 15:04:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Jupiter
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Yes. Another option I'd offer would be you keeping the Cyclone/"Gimbold" Ambanja female that you have, but us giving you a significant large ($130) discount from the regular price of Jupiter female, sending her for $100 shipped.

Thanks,

Vinnie


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Amanda Russell <[email protected]> wrote:

Alright I was wondering if My husband decides not to keep the Cyclone "Grimbold" baby if we would be able to return her and instead of a refund get a Jupiter female to replace her

Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 14:23:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Jupiter
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]


Hi Amanda,

The dam of the Jupiter babies that we have available currently came from Chameleon Paradise. Her sire was Chameleon Paradise's "Jake". Jake is F1, from WC parents -- you can find info on him here: http://www.chameleonparadise.net/gallery/ambilobe/jake/

Thanks,

Vinnie


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Amanda Russell <[email protected]> wrote:


Can you give me Lineage on the female he was paired with.

RE: Cyclone/Grimbold Female‏
Amanda Russell
7/10/14
[Keep this message at the top of your inbox]
To: Panther Sales
[email protected]
Have you received any information about the Cyclone x "Grimbold" girl that I purchased from you.

Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 16:45:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Cyclone/Grimbold Female
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Amanda,

We haven't gotten a response from the original seller, but I only just emailed him Tuesday night, after the concerns about Shauna's Cyclone/Grimbold boy were raised. I bought the females from him at the end of 2012, which is right around the time when he stopped frequenting the chameleon forums, so I figure I should give him a few days to respond. If he ends up being able to document his purchases from Kammer's, that will save a lot of stress for all involved.

Unfortunately, we didn't keep any of the males from the clutch that your female came, but there are some pictures of her oldest brother in this thread: http://www.chameleonforums.com/cyclone-baby-panther-company-125939/

If you would like a refund, we'll send you a prepaid shipping label for Fedex Priority overnight for you to ship her back to us, then issue a full refund, for the price of the animal plus the shipping cost you paid ($230), as soon as we receive her.

Thank you,

Josh




On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Amanda Russell <[email protected]> wrote:

Can you reveal the source that you purchased them from ,or have any pictures of her older male siblings? If I decided I wanted a refund how would that work, as I did purchase this girl with the expectations of the unique Grimbold colorings being present.

Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 13:24:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Cyclone/Grimbold Female
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]


HI Amanda,

Our concerns are with a specific female that was sold to us as Grimbold, along with 3 others (sold as sisters). The female that you received was from the pairing of Cyclone and a sister that produced males that we do believe show Grimbold traits clearly. That said, we did not buy these Grimbold females directly from the Kammers, but from another breeder on the forums, and as so such cannot guarantee any of the three are truly Grimbold. That said, we have not seen anything to suggest that any of the offspring are not pure Ambanja -- they just look more like typical wild ambanjas, as opposed to the unique Grimbold colors.

All of this said, given the situation, we will offer a full refund if you are dissatisfied or uncomfortable with the female we sold you.

Thank you,

Josh


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:52 PM, Amanda Russell <[email protected]> wrote:

I was wondering about the issues with the Cyclone/Grimbold lineage I purchased a female from that line. I purchased her on March 21,2014.

Wow so there's at least one customer with misrepresented lines that was not contact but rather she initiated the dialogue about the lineage. Perhaps you missed her in a mass email?

 

[Panther Company]

Josh, this is the person Shauna mentioned in her early post. I know this, because this is the one person that contacted us and thought they had a female from the clutch that Gojira and [we thought] the boy Shauna got from us was from.

We had 3 females that we got from the same seller labeled as "Grimbold". One clearly proved out -- check out T-Rex. Another didn't necesssarily, given Gojira's looks -- turns out the guy we sold to Shauna was completely mislabled by us -- so that's the one we were refunding. The third female is the one that Amanda got her female from, all the males looked to more clearly show influence that could come from Grimbold, and so we didn't contact her.

But, as you can see, we did still offer her a refund -- because we do that whenever someone is dissatisfied, and always try to give customers the benefit of any doubts.

Amanda had told us they were going to sell her locally but I guess the plans may have changed. In either case, she turned down an offer for a refund.

 

[Panther Company]

Correction, hers came from the same Dam as T-Rex now that I re-read the emails.

Anyway, a full refund was still offered. There's another screenshot showing the evidence that you all won't trust coming directly from me.

 

[Panther Company]

I think it's been thoroughly proved that we made a multiple mistakes. We took responsibility, and gave benefit of doubt to other customers in light of the mistakes (even though their animals were only indirectly involved). We issued full refunds. We apologized. In retrospect I definitely should have told Lam very clearly that the Faly male he liked so much had been mistaken as Ambanja and sold as such when younger.

 

[WebSlave]

I would like to petition all the mods on this site to remove panther co. as an emdowment member. You have all the evidences you need here on this thread. Also, Panther Co. Admitted to what they did knowingly. Lying, deceptive tactics, bribery, bullying, and out right outrages. If you want to keep the integrity of this site, please act accordingly.

Sorry, but I think you may be thinking of some other site other than this one with your above demand. We do not OFFICIALLY take sides in issues of this nature. We do not play judge, jury, nor executioner concerning disputes between parties. ALL we do is allow members to speak their piece here and enforce the rules about how and in what manner members will compose themselves in that endeavor.

If you feel that the integrity of this site hinges upon it doing YOUR bidding, then I am sorry, but you have come to the wrong place. Quite honestly, in my opinion the integrity of this site lies exactly where it is simply because we do NOT get officially into the middle of such disputes and do not try to sway anyone's opinion by acting in any manner that would be determined to be preferential or biased for or against anyone. Everyone can post whatever evidence in facts and opinions that they want to. We do not determine the validity of any such evidence, and nor will we act against a member outside of the rules that are in place concerning the rules of engagement allowed. We do not accept the role of judges in matters of disputes between parties. Boiled down to the most common denominator, we do not judge anyone based on WHAT they say, but instead limit our authority to HOW what is said is presented.

When people are banned from this site, it is not because of any determination that the evidence presented indicates, even overwhelmingly, that someone is a bona fide bad guy. People are banned when they continually and blatantly violate the rules concerning participation on this site. Nothing more. If YOU think someone has been proven to be a bad guy, based on what has been presented in a BOI thread, then that needs to guide YOUR hand when YOU consider doing business with that party. We are not going to make that sort of decision for you.

Furthermore, paid memberships do not bestow any special consideration concerning how members are treated by staff. There is no "get out of jail free" card available on this site. The paid membership icons have nothing at all to do with the determination of whether or not someone is a good guy or a bad guy. They are not looked at in that light, nor are they treated in that light based on anything stated nor inferred in BOI threads.

So, with all that in mind, yes the mods are acting "accordingly". Meaning, according to how I WANT this site to be run. Sorry if this may not be what you had in mind when you started this thread.

 

[jishillencik]

Josh, this is the person Shauna mentioned in her early post. I know this, because this is the one person that contacted us and thought they had a female from the clutch that Gojira and [we thought] the boy Shauna got from us was from.

We had 3 females that we got from the same seller labeled as "Grimbold". One clearly proved out -- check out T-Rex. Another didn't necesssarily, given Gojira's looks -- turns out the guy we sold to Shauna was completely mislabled by us -- so that's the one we were refunding. The third female is the one that Amanda got her female from, all the males looked to more clearly show influence that could come from Grimbold, and so we didn't contact her.

But, as you can see, we did still offer her a refund -- because we do that whenever someone is dissatisfied, and always try to give customers the benefit of any doubts.

Amanda had told us they were going to sell her locally but I guess the plans may have changed. In either case, she turned down an offer for a refund.

You cannot say that the one female used to produce T-Rex is Grimbold without confirmation from your third party or Ed Kammer. Ive asked you repeatedly but you still have not produced any evidence that suggests you actually tried to contact either party.

So, in your opinion, does T-Rex look 50%, 75%, 90% or, 100% Grimbold??? Im curious because without confirming your sources you cannot say he (and any other siblings) are 100% without proof.

 

[jishillencik]

Correction, hers came from the same Dam as T-Rex now that I re-read the emails.

Anyway, a full refund was still offered. There's another screenshot showing the evidence that you all won't trust coming directly from me.

A screenshot is a screenshot no matter whether or not you feel that we are biased. Please provide evidence that you indeed have contacted others from the "Grimbold" sisters that you determined to be not of Grimbold blood at all.

 

[robmd1]

im sorry , but lies are not mistakes they are lies josh an its a fact you lie

 

[Panther Company]

Rob -- there has been no lying on our end, and no evidence of lying provided by any of the posters. You, Rob Nichols, are are the only person on this thread that has very clearly sold animals he knew to be crosses as pure, for top dollar, with no disclosure, and gave no refunds -- nothing. You have no ground to stand on here.

As I've said, I think it's been thoroughly proved here that we definitely did make multiple mistakes. We took responsibility, where it the mistakes were made, and also gave benefit of doubt to other customers in light of the mistakes (even though their animals were only indirectly involved). We issued full refunds. We apologized.

 

[robmd1]

again Josh this thread is about you not me,nor have I ever had a boi thread about me selling ANY crossed cham you simply making things up to take attention away from your outright lies is pathetic.. its about you selling crosses as pure locale an your problem with telling the truth.. you can back peddle as much as you want it wont ever change the facts people have taken the time to screen shoot an post it all, you on the other hand haven't proved your point an have offered no proof of anything.. simply taking your word isn't good enough when your a proven liar.

 

[Panther Company]

As I've said, I don't refute anything in the screenshots said by me. I am also very confident that anyone taking the time to read the screenshotted conversations will actually see that they, in fact, prove that we took responsibility for mistakes, didn't attempt to lie or deny any accusations, and have tried to ensure any/all customer dissatisfaction has resolved to the greatest extent possible.