Bill Obston- Poor Business Conduct!

[Alias47]

. A timeline STILL has not been established, no one that has posted so far knows for sure when the actual sale took place. Daniel knows when he sent the PayPal, but still hasn't shared the times from the e-mails with us. The seller hasn't posted his side, for all we know an hour after his first e-mail exchange with Daniel someone else may have purchased them, perhaps before the PayPal payment was even sent?

There is absolutely NO way you can say this is "a definite bad guy post", we do not have all the facts. Hopefully the seller will post his side and then a determination can be made.

I agree...and I am DEFINITE on one thing...I am on the fence on this one.
So lets do a hypothetical...just for kicks...since a real timeline may never be produced due to lag in Paypal and several other factors...

Everyone has had a prospective client call or email and state that they would send payment immediately...and not seen a payment or another contact from that person again...

If you were waiting for someone you had never had contact with previously...who stated intention on the first established contact...and then...while possibly waiting for payment...a local guy shows up with money in hand (and I don't recall seeing ANYWHERE that stated (other than third party assumption) he made MORE money from the local sale) what would you do?

I don't think this is completely a question of integrity...as Neil said...first guy with the money gets it...just because it was easier to drive across town with cash than paypal and "get in line"...doesn't make this a transaction demonstrative of a bad business ethic.

Just playing the devil's advocate to some extent...it seems that without a validated timeline, and a response from the seller...the conclusion jumping has become extremly rampant.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Daniel, I asked on page one if you would provide the actual times from the e-mails and also if you had notified the seller of this thread, will you and have you?

There was less than 6 hours between the time he confirmed the availability and the payment was sent.

A timeline STILL has not been established, no one that has posted so far knows for sure when the actual sale took place. Daniel knows when he sent the PayPal, but still hasn't shared the times from the e-mails with us.

Agreed. I'm sure since Daniel has all the email correspondence saved, he will be able to post and confirm the dates/times from those emails.

 

[bcherps]

Same scenario

I have had a similiar occurance happen 3 times:

The first was I was told by a customer they wanted one of my boa babies out of a mid sized litter. they didn't want to put a deposit down because they were the first in line and I had like 15 for sale, then I never heard from them for a week. In the meantime I accepted payment from several people for the remaining animals in the litter. the first customer came back and just sent me a payment like a week later without asking if I had any left. The customer got all worked up about how they had been first in line-blah blah blah but when they came up with the money they was none left.

The second was I sold an emerald tree boa to a person in texas who evidently lives in a cave on the backside of some impassible ravine becuase when I went to drop the package off at fedex, they claimed they couldn't send it overnight and could only do two day. The person refused to receive the animal via delta at the airport. SO I refused to ship 2 day. I in turn refunded the persons money and took the animal to that weekends show and sold it. The customer was all up in arms that since they had paid for the snake it was thiers and they would have o.k'd me to ship it two day(which I wouldn't have done anyway-and you can be sure I would have a bad guy complaint here if it had shown up dead). They pulled the same line-since I paid for it, it was my property.


The third was I posted an ad for some het albino boas, and I got an email asking how many I had. I gave an answer and the person immediately paypalled me for a trio. He was only contacting me like every other day or so. So after like 3 days he then sends me an email that he is in central alaska, and wanted me to ship in January. I responded I wouldn't and I refunded his money, and I reposted the boas. Well, he saw the boa post before he saw his refunded money and my explaination that the boas probably wouldn't make it and I wouldn't ship. Again the customer was all up in the air about how poor my business ethics were.


I cannot say exactly how I would have handled this situation, but I can guarantee that if I had a choice between shipping animals across the country or to difficult to deliver on time areas I would almost undoubtly pick local sales over them. Shipping is a pain, from getting the animals boxed and to the pick up point, and shipped, to the expense, to the tracking trusting that the office guys at the shippers don't play a pick up game of soccer with the box, or leave it on the doorstep without knocking, and they trusting that the recipient tells the truth about how the animals were recieved.

We see about a 100 emails a month about concerning shipping issues, but we are here killing a guy for deciding to take the safer path for the animals. He refunded the money immediately, and didn't make any excuses why. Yes, there is also some monetary issues and piece of mind issues here too, but everyone is assuming the reason he chose local sale over ship is the cost savings equalling bigger profit. Maybe he cares about how stressed the animals get, or how safely they are transported? Has anyone asked.

my $.02

Thanks
ben

 

[Zx7trev]

More than the fact that its a broken contract, I think its a pain in the arse move, though probably not intentional. What I mean to say is...in order to make it more convenient for himself, the seller inconvenienced the buyer. This is bad business practice. End of story.

Shawn

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Ben.... I can understand about not shipping if it's going to be a two-day trip, but, if UPS or FedEx (or whoever) guarantees NEXT DAY delivery, it doesn't matter if you're shipping to Minnesota, Alaska or the South Pole.... If you pack the box CORRECTLY, there should never be a problem.... so instead of using your "normal" shipping boxes, you get heavier boxes, with 1' (instead of 1/2') styro and a lot more shredded newspaper than normal, and you put in TWO 40-hour heatpacks instead of one.... I always keep those type of boxes in stock just on the chance one of my customers lives in the Antarctic.... Sure, it might cost a little more for those supplies, but it's almost mandatory.... Not everyone lives in a warm-weather State, and if you're in this business, you have to plan for those people??.... Personally, I can ship a Dart Frog to Minnesota in the middle of February, and it will get there all nice, warm and fuzzy.... It's just the nature of the beast, and some of the things we HAVE TO DO to keep a customer a customer, and make sure of the welfare of the animal being shipped.... There have been times when I would actually wrap the deli (or bag) in a woolen towel (like wearing a heavy parka) to help keep the animal warm on a trip to the frigid cold.... but, it CAN be done....
It's the same as cool packs in the Summer.... that's why you'll never see me say that I will only ship if the temps are between 40-90 degrees.... You just have to take the extra steps (and spend a little extra money) for those conditions.... No customer should be told that they can't have their animal because of weather.... Longer than a day trip, maybe, but never because of heat or cold.... but that's just me....

Neil

Neil

 

[thegeckohut]

Sorry to lag, I should have included all these times in the original message, I will know better next time.

I inquired about the geckos at 3:39 AM PST.

Bill replied at 9:20 AM PST. (while I was out)

I sent the PayPal payment at 1:11 PM PST.

I recieved the refund at 3:51 PM PST with the message that he had found a buyer that he didn't have to ship to.

I hope this clears up some discussion about the timeline of events.
Thank you all for your feedback thus far.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Dan.... that's a different story....

Bill replied at 9:20 AM PST. (while I was out)

I sent the PayPal payment at 1:11 PM PST.

So there was 4 HOURS between the time he said you could have them, and you paying for them.... he could have EASILY found another buyer in those 4 hours.... Before you sent the PayPal, did you at least email him asking iof they were still available??.... Personally, IN THIS INSTANCE, I wouldn't have waited either, IF the guy that actually bought them did it in that 4 hour period.... Had you emailed him before you sent the Paypal, you might have saved yourself some trouble.... It's not HIS fault that you were "out"....

Neil

 

[thegeckohut]

Neil,
Your point is well taken and understood. However, if that was the case, why not just say, "someone paid first, sorry...."? Instead he chose to tell me that I wouldn't recieve the geckos because of the shipping factor, not because someone else paid first. I do not contest the fact that Bill had the right to sell to the first person to submit payment. I do however, resent the lack of communication and correspondence. If in fact, I was the first to pay, and another buyer was chosen simply for the shipping factor, I resent that as well.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Dan, I agree with you totally, BUT, you never game him a chance to say that someone else bought them already.... You sent your PayPal without speaking to him first, and, as it turned out, they were already sold??.... Was there a phone number you could have dialed??.... If there was, you should have called to get that PERSONAL touch, instead of waiting for emails to go back and forth....

I had that happen just the other day with my high yellow Emerald Tree Boa.... I had 5 people email me and ask me if it was still available.... I told each one that it was, and that FIRST PayPal gets it, and if they sent PayPal and it was already sold, I would send the other's back immediately.... Well, one of the guys took the chance and DID send the Paypal, and THEN emailed to see if he "won it".... he did, and I told him so.... About 5 minutes later, I got another PayPal for the same animal, and had to refund the money with an apology stating that he was too late.... The guy was very upset at losing the animal, but, that's just the way it goes.... I never heard back from the other three.... so you just never know??.... Next time something like this happens, and you REALLY want the animal, just send the PayPal and hope you were the first.... unless, of course, you've never heard of the seller and don't want to risk losing your money, that's understandable, but if it's someone that's "known" in the business.... just take the chance??.... I've done that many times before, and it usually works....

Neil

 

[Alias47]

If in fact, I was the first to pay, and another buyer was chosen simply for the shipping factor, I resent that as well.

No offense meant...but you do not KNOW whether or not this is, in fact, the case. I can completely understand your frustration, but taking a person to task on the BOI over this is a little out of hand. Now anyone who happens to search for Bill Obston will have to pour over this entire thread to realize that he may, in fact, NOT be so bad a guy...

It is too bad he didn't respond to you when you requested more information, and, although you were fairly calm, you did make demands and were accusative, so maybe he didn't feel like waging a pissing match with you when he felt he was justified in his decision. Maybe you are completely right, but to trample someones business reputation over a complete assumption is definitely uncalled for...

 

[ReptileAddictions]

I have to throw in my .02 cents since I know a few parties. I too have had to take several "lumps" this past two weeks with "deals".
One seller did the same exact thing to me; and Dan and I just discussed this. I was on line when I got a mass email about a new available dragon with a make offer. After a few instant replies back and forth. I bought it via Paypal within that 10 minutes of us messaging. Sold - done. Then whalla 3 hours later all the sudden I too was offered a refund and the buyer no longer felt the animal was in good enough health to ship???She wanted to take her to a vet. I said great, just hold the money, keep me posted, and by all means, don't ship her until you feel she is ready. Guess what. She refunded me with promises of "keeping me posted" that same night. BS. I saw pics of the dragon today on another forum. Seems she resold it to a higher bidder after I purchased it.It has been 2 weeks and I never heard another word. Worse yet Paypal got a chunk of that money. A waste of my time.
Then I replied to another "best offer" ad of Fauna. A few emails back and forth and I find out that not only they'll they no longer take the 8 day old "best offer" of $20.00 less. Fine. I figured they were within the right to not to, but I was informed they wouldn't take the posted price either. All of the sudden in 2 weeks the animals went from being 5 months and not sexable to what they said are now almost sexable and breedable and worth 10X as much.What the? But still the ad sits there same as it was when I replied. So my polite suggestion to update or delete it was ignored.
Then there was the fairly large breeder who begged for a not for sale animal that was pictured as the breeder of a hatchling. If I had a dollar for all those emails and Paypal promises and drama that followed I wouldn't have to sell a thing this week. I could afford to sit on my rump.
Lastly was the Quinn kid whom I bid unknowingly on 11 Leos for two weeks to find out that after I won he had already sold them elsewhere and was just going to send me totally different kinds of less of and Leos. All without even saying "I'm sorry".He didn't understand my frustration either.
I, like Dan, have had enough of all of these bad business practices. I finally paid my $10.00 and made one post. It takes that last one to set someone over the edge. As in Dans case, this was just the last straw. It is happening all to often. So many go on without anyone knowing that these folks are just wrong! I agree not all are worth "bad guy" threads, but I feel they are worth "Bad business practices" threads.
I now know 4 people in these 2 weeks that I could steer people clear of, but 3 will go unknown. Dan too knows more than a few. We should stop taking all these lumps and make it all public to a degree.Just because he got his money back doesn't make it OK. Is our time worth nothing? It is so disappointing to be all excited about a new baby coming home, all to get slapped in the face. What if you spent time and $ setting up their new home as I did in one case?
My last comment is about shipping. I would prefer that everyone come get their animals. As I wish I could drive down the block and get whatever I want. But most of us can't. If we choose to sell on line and ship, then prepare for it and do it. Don't just sit on the fence about it.
I live in the furthest north west than almost anyone on here. Spokane, WA. It is snowing right now.30 degrees. Let's see .....we got 4 dragons from TBK last Tuesday. We got 1 dragons from TKO yesterday.I got 2 chameleons from Jim/ Chameleon Company wendsday. I got 2 Leos from experiment 13 last Monday. 2 Leos from Carolina Herps 2 weeks ago wendsday. One Leo from Hot Gecko 3 weeks ago Tuesday.11 Leos from Rapture Reptiles this last Friday.1 dragon from Scott McGraw/Awesome Dragons on Tuesday. 4 dragons and 2 crested geckos from Sandfire Dragons and Dragons Den TODAY! Shall I go on?
I shipped out 32 dragons last week and 16 thus far this week. Today I shipped Dan a Chameleon, and he in turn shipped me some Crested Geckos that will be here tommorrow. I have shipped and received all winter every winter. ALL ARRIVE SAFE, usually unstressed, warm. If the seller knows what they are doing it all goes smoothly! We have never had or sent a DOA! To suggest it isn't safe to ship in the cold is just wrong. I guess then all the above listed people are just "lucky" the past 3 weeks.
The well being of the animals is the most important thing.But if both parties involved know what they are doing and take all the proper messures it really is no different than a car ride home from a pet store. In fact that ride is probably colder!
And I am with Dan on this one. A deal is a deal. Once I pay I consider an animal mine!

 

[Alias47]

A deal is a deal. Once I pay I consider an animal mine!

I do like to play the devil's advocate...which can sometimes be a bad habit.

And I do feel for Dan's disappointment and frustration...

However, it has not been established that Dan paid for that animal first...which means it may not have been his...and that is the problem with assumption.

Dan emailed this guy in the middle of the night...it appears that Dan was responded to first thing in the morning...but Dan didn't send payment for several hours...and did so without contacting the seller. His money was immediately refunded that evening...

There is a lot of missing information...however...it is as large a possibility that it was sold out from under Dan as it is that the animal was sold before Dan even sent the funds...

This, in my opinion, would mean this is undeserving of a "BAD GUY " thread unless direct clarification occurs...and it may NEVER occur after he "calmly" lambasted the seller for his business practices...which may or may NOT be in question.

Do you understand?
By making accusations against the seller after this occurance (irregardless of how tactful and well spoken it was) both in direct email and especially by bringing it to the BOI...you may have burned the bridge that would allow you to justify your position...

Now you have given him every opportunity to leave you hanging in the wind by your own making...

Bill is the only person who knows to a certainty how and when everything happened. This argument is moot...there are no definite facts to support your claims without Bill coming here, posting, and being thought to be truthful...which brings us to an interesting place. With possible contrary opinions...and no supporting documents...this becomes a "he said/she said" argument...Case dismissed on lack of evidence.

 

[ReptileAddictions]

I understand completely.I have talked to Dan about this at length. I think as he does. IF someone had paid before he did I would have thought he would say 'Sorry, someone paid before you" or something to that affect. Instead he said "sorry, I found someone to buy that I don't have to ship to". I think it was the latter. But like you said we may never know.
If it was the latter I still feel it is worth of a "Bad Business Practice" not a "Bad Guy". Although the line between the two seems to be getting smaller lately.
I think people need to be aware of the ones they might never get the animals from, not just the ones who try to steal the money. Like I told Dan I was so discouraged lately I stopped shopping. That is damaging to the trade in general. Only a little, but if we all get discouraged often, eventually all the customers get scared away.What good does that do any of us? Dan and I almost didn't do a "deal".I inquired about a few animals and when he replied about their availability I email him back and said "thanks for the reply but I am having a bad week at buying. I don't think it;s in my cards". Had he not made the effort, I wouldn't be getting those cresties today. All because of other peoples "bad business practices".
Ok I am off the soap box now and back into what I should be doing instead.

 

[Junkyard]

Is Bill aware of this thread?

 

[Alias47]

I can definitely see your point...and with the abuse of customers in this industry I think there are a LOT of frustrated people.

I am also glad to know Dan has excellent customer service...when I am need of some more cresties...I will not hesitate to check him out...

I guess I just feel that this particualr circumstance doesn't present itself as a situation meriting taking a stand against bad business practices by making Bill a whipping boy for the customer disastifaction in the industry. Just too many facts left to the imagination...
Yes the response could have been worded differently...but reading into the way it WAS worded does not make the assumptions fact.

There are enough people out there who have cold hard evidence against them doing much MUCH worse things than refunding someone their money the day they received it. I understand that, from Dan's personal point of view, he is very upset...and I would be too...but from a business point of view...his money was refunded immediately...regardless of the reason why...and for his own future reference...he may choose not to do business with Bill again...but I still feel it is going WAY overboard to publically denegrade Bill's business ethics and morality because he feels slighted in the deal.

When did this happen, BTW...I don't believe a date was ever given.

 

[chondroqueen]

Just to throw something out there as Ms. Childs was talking about "knowing" how to ship, and I am aware that there is a shipping forum on fauna, I think that it would benefit alot of newbies if someone who can vouch for a good 95% live arrival rate (at least) could post how to tell when or when not to use a heat pack, etc... like what if the temp is 75 during the day and 45 at night? Just curious, as I have shipped out a few animals and they arrived safe, but I have not done any winter shipping yet, AND did receive a pair of boas whose inside box was 40 degrees...(they are fine and safe now, thank god) I think this would benefit everyone.....sorry to get off of the subject...and I think the seller would have been better to just say payment came in before Dan sent his paypal, that would have saved alot of headache....and I too have had cases were someone says "Im sending the money, blah blah blah" and never see it. I had one guy do this to me TWICE last summer (mind you no ad I post will come off UNTIL I have money in my hand)....the first time he said he had sent it and he asked why I hadnt shipped the chondro yet, and why the ad was still running! I politely told him I hadnt seen anything in the mailbox, that I would have sent a payment confirmation email if I had asking whrn he would have wanted the snake shipped. So he swore that he sent it again, and I never saw anything. After that the kid(I assume) fell off the face of the earth. Point is, unless you buy in person, there are no guarantees. The other person may have shown up on the sellers doorstep before the paypal went through. The seller should have reworded his statement as to why the refund was issued, its not reality that counts, its how the comment was perceived.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Angela.... very easy.... never go by the daytime temps, because when you ship a package, it's USUALLY picked up later in the afternoon, and it USUALLY arrives at it's destination by 10:30 in the morning.... If the NIGHTTIME temps are going to be BELOW 50 degrees, you should use at least ONE 40-hour heatpack.... If the NIGHTTIME temps are below 40, you should use TWO 40-hour heatpacks....

Neil

 

[ReptileAddictions]

I notified the seller Bill of this thread by the way to see if he might care to respond.
I agree with Neal on packs, and bt the way, we have found that the 60 hour heats are equivalent to 2 packs and a tiny bit more affordable.
Now that we are way off subject. I would make a post but certainly there are people far more experienced than me that would be better at it...CHAMCO???? You ship from hot to cold probably at least 20 times a day, care to contribute to that thread?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Is Bill aware of this thread?

I notified him within a short period of time after this thread was started. He has yet to confirm he received the message and has not logged on to fauna since the day before this thread was started.

northlight
Registered User
Last Activity: 03-06-2006 08:00 AM

 

[Xelda]

Let's be realistic here. I know it's easy to get wrapped up in the online version of the herp hobby. We forget that there's the online world and then the real life world. In the online world, you EXPECT your seller to respond to your e-mails quickly even though you yourself may not have time to use the computer because of work, school, going out with friends, etc. In the online world, you EXPECT your seller to ship the next day after you send the money, but you yourself may not have the time to adjust your schedule on short notice so you can spend the hour or two packing up an order and dropping it off at the shipping center. In the online world, you can claim ownership of animals you Paypal money for, but in the real world, people do have facilities and stores and shows where they sell the same animals that are listed as available on their site. In-person sales take precedence because we all prefer to do them. When has that ever changed in the hobby?

Bill replied at 9:20 AM PST. (while I was out)

You weren't home to check your e-mail when Bill replied, so let's not assume that Bill was sitting around checking his e-mail as soon as you Paypaled the money. Even if you did technically pay before the other buyer, maybe Bill had a customer arrive at his facility before he got around to checking his e-mail again.

What sounds more likely is that he checked his e-mail in the morning, maybe checked it again during lunch time, then had a visitor arrive with cash in hand. He probably gave the visitor a tour and chatted with him for a couple of hours. Obviously, he's not going to check his e-mail while he's showing the visitor around and shotting the breeze. But he does after the visitor leaves, which is when he sees the notification from Paypal. That he refunded the money a mere 2.5 hours after you Paypaled makes me think he didn't realize you had paid already.

So if you were in Bill's shoes, what would be the more reasonable thing to do? Refund the Paypal payment with a click of a button, or call the customer to have him bring the animal back for a refund? What if that customer lived two hours away?

Maybe it would seem like Bill should have held the animals for you. But in your first e-mail prior to payment, you still sound uncertain about purchasing. You even sound reluctant to pay, since rather than asking him to send you a total price, you assert that you want to do a trade.

Hi,
I would like to purchase this beautiful pair of cresteds your posted on fauna yesterday. Please let me know if they are still available. Do you accept PayPal? I know you mentioned in your ad that you are trying to make room, but if you happen to see anything on my site that catches your eye, I would be more than happy to work a good trade. Check it out at www.thegeckohut.com I look forward to hearing from you soon.

If you were that serious about buying, a differently worded e-mail or better yet, a phone call, would have saved you a lot of trouble. And with that said, I don't think this thread warrants a bad guy post. Nobody got ripped off here. As for being upset that you weren't able to get the animals you wanted... It was just some crested geckos. Like those will ever be in short supply.