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BRANDON AT REPTIRUS- REALLY BAD GUY.

SouthBayGeckos said:
I do apologize if it sounds like i jumped the gun, but the seller wants me to ship it, with the faith i'll get my money back? that doesn't sound to right to me, thats all.
Click to expand...

It is a fairly common practice not to issue refunds before the animal is returned and in cases of illness a number of dealers ask for a copy of the vet report as well. Not just to prove you saw a vet, which it seems you did, but also to confirm the charges.
I am wondering if you can show us a photo of the bump/lump on the gecko.

I did note in the vet report that the vet noted "should be able to pass eggs OK but can't be sure."
 
oh... i forgot to reply to Jim O....

This by no means would be my typical means for a resolution.

I take things like this very seriously.

I had heard some things about this seller before, but mainly regarding shipping and shipping materials. So, I thought this situation should be known.
 
By the way Brittney, I do agree with you that you are entitled to a refund of the gecko as well as shipping costs both ways. I don't think you are entitled to the vet bills unless he was notified before you went and agreed to pay the charges. I think that you should have given the seller time to make this right before posting here though...
 
SouthBayGeckos said:
I had heard some things about this seller before, but mainly regarding shipping and shipping materials. So, I thought this situation should be known.
Click to expand...

A word of caution, hearsay reports are usually frowned upon on the BOI.
 
hey Gecko_Den,

yes, I do agree with you. I guess I jumped the gun with the post. I was in shock really... and I still am really concerned and sad about this gecko... :(

but you must agree... the gecko is in nasty shape...

I am not expecting him to pay for any vet bills at all. I have never asked that of him, nor did I ever expect it of him.

here is a link to some photos of the lump. in one I think you can see her feet too.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20665563@N04/
 
I had a feeling this would show up on the BOI...

Firstly, I know Brandon personally and upon receiving a phone call from Brittney he called me about the situation. Often I help Brandon out by shipping for him because his driver refuses to do pickups after 11am, so was the case with this shipment as I had my own shipments going out on Monday. I can attest that the gecko had no obvious deformities upon shipping out.

IMO, I would hesitate to do business with Brittney because of how she handled the situation (including jumping the gun here on the BOI). I think she owes Brandon an apology for her behavior.

I also told Brandon by her e-mails that I would be very suspicious about her motives considering when asked, she refused to provide a vet report and threatened him with a Paypal dispute.

Brandon is at bowling right now and I don't think gets back until 9pm EST, but I did text him about this thread.

E-Mails between Brandon & Brittney were as follows (which he forwarded to me earlier today for my opinion on how to handle the situation)...

On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:30 AM, Brandon Weibley wrote:
> >>
> > >>> Just wanted to double check with you and make sure they arrived
> > >>> safely
> > >>> today. How do you like them?

On November 20, 2007, at 1:40 PM, South Bay Geckos wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Are you shipping tomorrow?
> >
> >
> > >> Brandon,
> > >>
> > >> It is almost 11 here... and they're not here yet... I'm anxious! :)
> > >> I'll let you know as soon as they arrive! they're out for delivery
> > >> now....

On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:36 AM, Brandon Weibley wrote:
>
> > > thats right, forgot about it being a different time there :) They
> > > are
> > > suppost to be there before 12, so you should be getting them any
> > > time now

On November 20, 2007 at 2:23 PM, South Bay Geckos wrote:
> > I don't understand what happened, but I've had leopards shipped, and
> > nothing like this has ever happened. Also, I've got several adults
> > that have never showed signs like this in their hips. This screams
> > bone deformity to me, and I'm rather upset. I have an appointment
> > scheduled with my vet this afternoon, and I don't think I should have
> > to deal with this after paying good money for these guys.
> >
> > please help me out.

On Nov 20, 2007, at 11:32 AM, Brandon Weibley wrote:
> >>>
> > >>>> I actually just got a call from another person I shipped to in
> > >>>> Indiana
> > >>>> today, who told me that their gecko (a blizzard het tremper male)
> > >>>> looks like
> > >>>> it was jarred around pretty bad. They told me that the gecko
> > >>>> doesnt look
> > >>>> like it has anything broken but that it was walking funny, just
> > >>>> like you
> > >>>> said yours is. It looks to me like someone at DHL was very
> > >>>> careless and
> > >>>> either shook or threw the packages. It is hard to see in those
> > >>>> pictures
> > >>>> exactly what is going on, the first 2 pictures dont really show
> > >>>> anything
> > >>>> because of the way she is standing up on her tail. The 3rd picture
> > >>>> the
> > >>>> right hip looks SLIGHTLY larger than the left hip, but I never
> > >>>> noticed that
> > >>>> when she was here. She was going to be one of my breeders this
> > >>>> comming
> > >>>> season, but I desided to let the project go. I can assure you that
> > >>>> she was
> > >>>> taken care of well her. I do not think this is a bone deformity,
> > >>>> and I
> > >>>> would recommend giving her a few days to settle in before running
> > >>>> her to the
> > >>>> vets, chances are she is just shaken up, and it is a possibility
> > >>>> that she
> > >>>> could have hurt her hip causing it to swell during shipping if the
> > >>>> box was
> > >>>> jarred around. Once again, I feel that you should wait a few days
> > >>>> to let
> > >>>> her settle down and if it is just swollen for it to go back to
> > >>>> normal. If
> > >>>> the problem still exists, I will take her back from you. I would
> > >>>> replace
> > >>>> her, but I do not have any other mack het bell females, I could
> > >>>> swap her
> > >>>> with a mack probable het bell, and give you a $50 refund along with
> > >>>> the
> > >>>> other female.

On 11/20/07, South Bay Geckos <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>> Brandon,
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not going to take any chances, and i'm going to go to my vet.
> > >>>
> > >>> My vet is specifically a leopard gecko expert, and is known around
> > >>> the US. I'm taking her now, and if she says it's a product of MBD,
> > >>> I'll will have to take further action.
> > >>>
> > >>> I was very pleased with the entire transaction, but I would
> > >>> prefer to
> > >>> be refunded for the amount I paid for her if it turns out to be MBD,
> > >>> on the other hand, if it's nothing, like you say, I will use her
> > >>> as a
> > >>> breeder as I intended.
> > >>>
> > >>> thanks for you time,
> > >>> Brittney

On Tuesday, November 20, 2007 at 4:02 PM, South Bay Geckos wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Are you shipping tomorrow?
> >
> >
> > >> hi,
> > >>
> > >> I just left the vet and the condition is one of three things, none of
> > >> which caused by shipping.
> > >>
> > >> 1) MBD - diagnosed by x-ray hypocalcemic (low calcium)
> > >>
> > >> 2) healed bone fracture
> > >>
> > >> 3) congenital deformity of the bones around the hip area. Also
> > >> seen on
> > x-ray.
> > >>
> > >> It could even be a combination.
> > >>
> > >> I am extremely dissatisfied as this means this gecko is imperfect for
> > >> any breeding
> > >> project.
> > >>
> > >> Unless I can be refunded my money, I will take further action through
> > paypal.
> > >>
> > >> Brittney Gougeon

On Nov 20, 2007, at 2:00 PM, Brandon Weibley wrote:
>
> > > If this is the case, I will happily refund you for the female once
> > > I receive
> > > her back. Before you send her back though I would like to have a
> > > copy of
> > > the paper the vet gave you with these diagnosis listed. I would
> > > also like
> > > to have the name and number of the vet because I would like to
> > > personally
> > > give them a call and chat with them about what could have caused this,
> > > because this gecko has been in my care since it was 15 grams and I
> > > actually
> > > supply a separate bowl of calcium for all my geckos, to make sure
> > > that they
> > > have enough calcium, plus I lightly sprinkle their food (meal worms,
> > > crickets, roaches) so I don't understand how she could have gotten
> > > MBD.
> > > The gecko has never broken any bones in my care, and considering
> > > the person
> > > who bred her is a friend of mine, im sure he would have told me
> > > about this
> > > before I ever purchased her. And lastly, if my understanding of a
> > > congenital deformity is correct, I don't see that being very likely
> > > either
> > > considering that I just contacted the guy who produced her and he
> > > told me
> > > that the parents came from 2 different breeders, both very well
> > > known and
> > > trusted, so I don't see how it could be a genetic problem. I am
> > > confused
> > > how a qualified vet could not tell the difference between MBD and a
> > > broken
> > > healed bone on an X-Ray considering these 2 should look very
> > > different. Im
> > > sorry that all of this has occured, I am still extremely confused
> > > myself on
> > > how she could have possibly had this problem while in my care and
> > > me not
> > > notice it. If you can please get that info to me, we can get her
> > > shipped
> > > back and I can take care of a refund for you. If you cannot scan
> > > the vet
> > > report and need to fax it instead, please let me know, I have a fax
> > > machine
> > > you can fax it to.

On Tuesday, November 20, 2007 at 5:17 PM South Bay Geckos wrote:
> > Brandon,
> >
> > my vets name is Susan Johnson at the Santa Clara Pet Hospital.
> >
> > her phone number is:
> > 408-296-5857
> >
> > I would love for you to speak with her about this situation.
> >
> > Also, I didn't even mention the fact that she has a broken toe on her
> > left back foot, and that both of her back feet are red and inflamed.
> >
> > For the record, the reason she can't tell the difference is because
> > it is healed. It is something she has had for a while. It is a very
> > hard lump. no soft like swelling would be.
> >
> > In my opinion, any decent breeder would go ahead and refund me my
> > money. I have dealt with 3 very respectable breeders in california
> > that have never had any issues like this.
 
I don't know if I'd be inclined to ship the gecko back and anticipate a prompt refund when it was obviously sent to me in that condition to begin with. I think if it were me..I'd let the seller review the vet report and talk to the doc if he wanted for confirmation purposes, but I would want a full refund plus the cost of return shipping in advance before I threw away any more money.

I'm all about seeing things work out but I just dont get a feeling about the whole thing.
 
Well, I feel that if there were any pre-existing issues (ie: broken bones, MBD) the seller should have disclosed that to you PRIOR to the sale. I can understand receiving a gecko in bad condition and taking it to the vet right away in the event it happened during shipping. I also don't know how the seller could have 'not known' the gecko had physical abnormalities of this nature if he has had it since it was 15 grams?

I do think this 'Bad Guy' report was premature, since the seller has not yet had time to remedy the problem. If he gave his OK to take the gecko to the vet, then I feel you are entitled to a full refund, including shipping both ways, and at least 50% of the cost for the vet.

If you are considering keeping the gecko, I would not recommend to ever breed it. If it has a history of MBD and poor bone density, egg production would only compound the problem with the calcium demands on the gecko.
 
I can attest that that is the conversation thus far between me and brandon.

I have sent various email since trying to figure out how to ship this gecko back.

I didnt know anyone other than brandon was involved in the shipping process.

again, my intention is not to use any scare tactics or threaten anyone. I just really need some help, as i've never had this issue before.

triple moon exotics, is there any way you can help me out?? i would really appreciate it.
 
Seeing Marcia here sort of reminds me of a time I ordered geckos from her. I could have dropped her box from a ten story building and the geckos wouldn't have suffered a scratch. Marcia provides The Best packing in the business.
 
thanks chuck

Thanks Chuck,

I do believe that blaming it on the shipping is a little ridiculous.

the condition of this gecko is something that has been going on for a while.
it will still have a great life, but just not as the breeder I intended.

and because of that, I believe I am entitled to a full refund plus shipping.

I can also attest, the Male he sent me is SUPERB! I really like him a lot, and he has been very very well taken care of.

Just so you guys know. :)

thanks again.
 
Chuck, I don't think Brandon was making any excuses. The photos he received (which I saw and AREN'T the same photos she posted here) didn't really show anything but maybe slight swelling in the hip area or the gecko was sitting odd in the tub. I can just say there wasn't any obvious swelling or defects on the gecko when I saw her Monday afternoon.

Brittney, my suggestion to you is work with a seller when he or she is trying to provide a solution for you instead of jumping onto the BOI, posting a bad guy thread and threatening a Paypal dispute. I advised Brandon to keep all contact with you over e-mail so there is proof of discussion between you two.
 
It looks to me like a congenital bone deformity. I have seen this over the years, randomly. It usually affects the hip/pelvic area and one side is larger than the other or has somewhat of a bend. Normally it is not even noticeable until the gecko is around 20-25 grams, maybe it is less noticeable in real life than it is in the photos, I dunno. It does not look like an injury to me, and I don't think the gecko should be bred. Just my opinion as an experienced keeper of these animals. Also, congenital defects are in many cases not genetic, so who the parents of the gecko in question are is pretty irrelevant.
 
OH, I do however think that this thread was started a bit prematurely, as this place should really be a last resort in the case of posting a bad guy thread. In my opinion that is.
 
emails that were left out of the conversations.

[
I also told Brandon by her e-mails that I would be very suspicious about her motives considering when asked, she refused to provide a vet report and threatened him with a Paypal dispute.


I never REFUSED to send a vet report, I just dont have a scanner or a fax machine at my house. So, I took some images and sent them to him in this email.


From: [email protected]
Subject: vet record photos.
Date: November 20, 2007 3:05:07 PM PST
To: [email protected]

here are some photos of the vet record


here is an image of the bump again.

also, if you look for it, you can see the bump slightly in the photo you first sent me. Only someone looking would know it was there.
second, is a photo of the vet record, as I dont have a scanner or fax in my home and i'm off work today because of the shipment.

HERE IS ANOTHER EMAIL, THAT I SENT.... for some reason this was not included in the previous posting of our conversation:


From: [email protected]
Subject: thoughts
Date: November 20, 2007 2:59:17 PM PST
To: [email protected]

Brandon,

I just want to let you know...

I have faith that you might not have known about the condition, as MBD sometimes goes undiagnosed and untreated, and can eventually be corrected.

The only problem I have is the way this is being handled.
I feel I should be refunded the amount of the female gecko, $200, because she can and will only be used as a PET ONLY gecko.

I would not want to risk a deformity in any of her offspring, much less her life due to the depletion of calcium in her system.

I will be working on helping her gain some more bone structure, but until then, you need to know that I am extremely dissatisfied with the quality of the gecko at hand.

Her disposition, and heath otherwise is excellent. She is very calm, even after shipping and didn't mind the trip to the vet. I also enjoyed chatting with you and the transaction itself. It is only the gecko I'm concerned about, as I now don't have a female for my breeding project and must go frantically looking for a replacement.

I can give you my word, she will be a PET ONLY gecko... because of her health situation.

thanks again, and I hope we can get everything resolved.

Brittney Gougeon
 
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