Carrot Tails

[groovygeckos]

im not sure why everyone thinks ray hines are the only CT`s

if i remember correctly , all of the color-morphs were selectively bred starting from the normal and high-yellow morph (if u wanna call it that ) selectively bred "normal" into hi-yellow guess what came from high yellow ? lol tangerines hypos and carrottails ! so to say that any of these "bloodlines" are unrelated by any means is just wishfull thinking ! i understand if someone say these are true -CT `s , because that is what that line selectively bred for (more CT and less spotting) thats fine !! but to say they are soooo different bloodwise ....just sounds silly ! we all know that all colors, patterns, and even the albinos cropped up from "normal" or wild caught colonies and that the fact is all of our geckos are related in some way !

 

[KelliH]

How can you tell if a Leo has Ray Hines blood in it?

Well, they just have a certain look to them... Now granted even some of the animals I produce from Ray Hine line carrot tails I do not classify as a "carrot tail".. Example-
carrot tail-

non carrot tail (in this case a hypo tang)-

Now while both of those geckos have the same dad (he was a SHTCT), the second one I would not classify as a carrot tail. Why? It has spotting on the body and all the way up to the tail base. I guess Jeanne it would have to be up to each individual breeder to classify their geckos! You know the bloodline of yout geckos better than us..however even if the particular gecko in question DID have Hine blood in it, I would not classify it as a hypo carrot tail, just my opinion. I am certainly not the be all/end all when it comes to this stuff, but seem to know a little more about it than most.

if i remember correctly , all of the color-morphs were selectively bred starting from the normal and high-yellow morph

You remember incorrectly.

guess what came from high yellow ? lol tangerines hypos and carrottails

Sorry Dan but that's wrong. Hypo Carrot Tails originated from Ray Hine in the UK, and his adults originated from a poulation of wild hypos/super hypos. They are a distinct bloodline, different from the selectively bred tangerines and hypo tangerines.

so to say that any of these "bloodlines" are unrelated by any means is just wishfull thinking

Wrong again. See above.

but to say they are soooo different bloodwise ....just sounds silly ! we all know that all colors, patterns, and even the albinos cropped up from "normal" or wild caught colonies

Yeah, the carrot tails did come from wild caught adults.. however they are a relatively new bloodline. I cannot remember off the top of my head what year it was that Hine imported those adults but it hasn't been very long ago...maybe the late 1990's.

Do some research on it, email Ray Hine if you would like to Dan. Maybe you could give a little credit to me, that I actually may know what I am talking about on this stuff..LOL. I mean I just posted pics in an earlier post of my first hypo carrot tails that I got in 2001..I think I know the history of the bloodline pretty well.

 

[USAGECKOS]

Thanks for the clarification Kelli. I will take the carrot tail label of of her, what you said makes sense to me.


Thanks to everyone else who helped answering my dilema!

 

[groovygeckos]

no i give you alot of credit

not trying to take away from what you have stated and im sure u know exactly what you are talking about ! my point is .... it is not like each bloodline is from a different population ,all are related to wild caught geckos ,and are much more related than everyone thinks ! hines wild caught were no different than anyone elses WC `s that produced hi-yellow or tangerine or any of the albinos ! the fact that everyone liked/chose a different appearance/color to "selectively" breed for originally (to me) does not mean they are unrelated ! someone else took animals kin to hines (and all the rest) and selectively bred for color that showed up in the "normals" and are now known as all of these different "morphs" ! ray hine (im pretty sure ) was not the only person that went after that appearance ! if so why do all of these "tangerines" have so much orange in the tail ?

 

[KelliH]

Thanks for the clarification Kelli. I will take the carrot tail label of of her, what you said makes sense to me.

Your welcome Jeanne, I'm glad it made sense to someone!

it is not like each bloodline is from a different population ,all are related to wild caught geckos ,and are much more related than everyone thinks ! hines wild caught were no different than anyone elses WC `s that produced hi-yellow or tangerine or any of the albinos !

No, actually the Hine line hypo carrot tails are from a completely different population than most if not all of the leopard geckos we already had here in the US. My educated guess is that they are actually a different subspecies at the least, possibly even a seperate species of Eublepharis. Do you have any hypo carrot tails in your collection Dan? If you do, look at them, and compare them to a non Ray Hine line tangerine or to a non Giant albino. They are very different, from the shape of the head, to the toe structure on the feet, to the sheer size of them. Those first hypo carrot tails that came into the US from the UK were completely unrelated to anything we had here. That is how they are different from anyone elses WC's.

ray hine (im pretty sure ) was not the only person that went after that appearance !

Ray Hine was the only one to import that particular group of wild caught super hypos though. Now of course the few breeders that got them that first year they were available bred them to their own tangs and hypo tangs already in their collections. Well, if they were smart they did. So of course now what we see are usually not pure Hine animals anymore, however it is quite obvious they are from that line. You see, the Hine line of super hypo is either a dominant or co dominant gene, not exactly sure which. None theless when you breed a Hine line super hypo carrot tail to a normal, some of the offspring will be super hypo carrot tails. It is a very strong trait. Another thing differentiating them from the tangs/hypos that were here before them.

Ever seen K&N's "ghost" leos? Those are just pure Hine line super hypos, before they were crossed into tangs.

if so why do all of these "tangerines" have so much orange in the tail ?

Because breeders were working towards the goal of making their geckos prettier. In the high yellows breeders started to notice that some of them had some orange on the tail base. These breeders selectively bred their geckos until some of the orange started to creep up on the body, and it all went from there. They also bred for lack of spotting. I call the hypos (tangerine and non) that resulted from these breedings are called "selectively bred hypos".

Well, not sure how better to explain it all. I did my best!

 

[groovygeckos]

so if i breed hi-yellows that have alot of orange in the tail ,

and also reduced spotting,that the morph is known to have (aka hypo ) and i end up with some hypo babies with alot more orange in the tail than the parents ! would you call these hypo CT ? because i know for a fact , that most if not all of the different colors ,were selectively bred for from the same population of geckos and if ray hines had that potential , so did everybody elses geckos , they just went in a different direction in selection ! more accurate to say no they are not ray hine CT ! we all know these arent the only true carrottails , that would be like saying there is only one true-hypo when we know of a few other bloodlines that show the characteristic of (at least of a trait they were named after > HYPOMELANISTIC)ie: reduced spotting/banding please explain breeding tang X tang , and getting some" high-yellow" or "normal" babies ? it happens , and it just proves they are all related ,maybe not as closely anymore , but they sure are !

 

[beakgeek]

it is not like each bloodline is from a different population ,all are related to wild caught geckos ,and are much more related than everyone thinks ! hines wild caught were no different than anyone elses WC `s

Dan,

I am sure you realize that Leopard Geckos come from different locations - Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Northwest India. If you look at the geography of that region you'll see there are some substantial mountain ranges that will cause genetic isolation - thus different populations.

Any number of things can influence different populations and cause them to change - Mr. Darwin introduced this hypothesis a while back. So to say that each bloodline or the origin of the bloodline are all the same is completely incorrect.

Regards,

Terry

 

[groovygeckos]

no thank you very much

this is my earlier point (different thread) that "selective bred hypo " were only named after Hypomelanistic trait ,this dom or co-dom "hypo" is a true " hypomelanistic" guess i misunderstood to think CT was not in the same line as his hypo

 

[groovygeckos]

glad there is someone to help me !

just having these small pieces of info left out (subspecies etc. ) of the whole "morph-story" can make it sound completely different

 

[groovygeckos]

i do understand they are all from the same places

did not know different location within the few countries , could make such a difference ! i would think if they are the same type , they are from the same very- big population? ( no idea ) subspecies are just animals that have adapted to different areas etc. ? over time they adapt and physical changes are made ? this is helpfull ! but how would you know a gecko is from a different population/area ? and wouldnt each group from different areas ( populations) be related to eachother ???? really dont see how they are not ! but maybe u can explain ?

 

[groovygeckos]

ok to put this better

and to completely leave ray hines line out of it ! what i said is true you just said it right here ! and this is the story ive read/heard for several years !!!! from the high-yellow , people selected the reduced spotting , and made "reduced pattern" named it after hypomelanistic (not a true hypo) , they selected more orange geckos to get tangerines , and some had more orange in the tail , and were selected to make what alot of us call "carrot-tails " (not hines ct`s ) but they could be/ are called carrot-tails none the less ! do you mean to say that there were no true carrot-tails before ray-hines ? i mean because people had selectively bred " hypos" and" hypotangs" that look to be CT`s (at least this is what i would call some of them ) from high yellow and tangerine a bit before that ! so a "new bloodline " has taken over the name CT ? ADDITION (did not know before writing this , there was a genetic carrottail , knew of the " hypo" , but not that they are one in the same )

 

[beakgeek]

A mountain range is in essence the same thing as a body of water in that the mountain range acts as barrier. You have an island of land that cuts off one population from other populations just like animals on an island are cut off.

Using an island as an example, look at the finches of the Galapolos. The amount of differences in the finches is a good example of what genetic isolation can do to a species.

The same can happen to an isolated population of leopard geckos. You get a genetic mutation that only occurs in the one population (coloration, size, etc) and is not passed on to other populations.

In Ray Hines case, as I understand it, he had access to wild animals that are genetically different, thus he has animals that are different from other breeders.

*Waits for Kelli Hammack, Chris Newsom, Justyn Miller to jump into the action*

I am far from a an expert, but I have a background in biology and genetics, and I do a lot of reading which helps immensly with understanding all of this.

In science, which herpetology is, making broad statements without supporting it is not proper science.

Regards,

Terry

 

[KelliH]

do you mean to say that there were no true carrot-tails before ray-hines ? i mean because people had selectively bred " hypos" and CT`s (at least this is what they named them ) from high yellow and tangerine a bit before that ! so a "new bloodline " has taken over the name CT ?

Dan, I would like for you to name one breeder that had "hypo carrot tails" or even "carrot tails" before the Ray Hine animals were imported to the US.

 

[ragnew]

I'm pretty sure that the Brants have been working with Hypo CTs for a while as well, but didn't all of theirs also originate from the Hine's line?

 

[KelliH]

I'm pretty sure that the Brants have been working with Hypo CTs for a while as well, but didn't all of theirs also originate from the Hine's line?

Yes, they did. I had never even heard of a hypo carrot tail before the Ray Hine animals were released.

 

[groovygeckos]

kelli

i would not know any names , i was younger and not as into them as i am now ,but i saw them in person at a reptile swap i am sure there were /are plenty of "selectively bred "leopard geckos from before the time you mentioned the import of these "hypo-carrot-tails" , that had very large amounts of orange on their tails and less spotting than the normals ,were called "high yellow " and "hypos" at the time and in my opinion they were carrottails , im sure they were later selectively bred (if they were smart) with that much color present ,so the offspring would show more of this color ! and isnt this also where tangerines came from ? and theres these "tangerines " that have more orange in the tail than some of the CT`s . i can see , if you are saying they are not this exclusive " hines hypo-carrot-tail" or" hines CT" i just cant see how you can say they are not carrot-tails kelli your pictures are great i can see the one is def. CT , while the other is not , but i say that because it has so little CT and its not even filled in , but when a gecko thats unrelated to that line , has %50 , how can this be called anything other than CT or CT tangerine ! to answer your question NO i do not have anything i know to be from ray hines line of CT , but 6 of my geckos sure are carrot-tails %50 to %75 ! just have no idea where my HQ `s red-stripes or Tremper`s giant CT`s get theyre carrotty-good tails from ! would you happen to know ? im am sure youll tell me they are not carrot-tails unless they are from hines line though LOL

 

[WizardLizards]

Can I over-simplify this whole argument??

Ok I am far from an experienced breeder, just a guy with a gecko addiction. From what I have read so far the easiest way to explain all of this is as follows. Ray hine was the first to consistantly produce animals with "carrot tail". Therefore any "true" carrot tails would be derived from that GENETIC line. There have been other breeders who have produced leos with orange "carrot" color in their tails, but they would not be considered "true carrot tails" since they do not originate from the Ray Hine line. I look at it this way, you can buy a Lamborghini made by the Lamborghini motor company. You can also buy a body kit that resembles a Lamborghini to put on your Yugo frame. It may look like a Lamborghini, and you might be able to sell it for more than a normal Yugo, but it is simply not a Lamborghini.

And I challenge anyone who posts here to use the word Lamborghini in their post more than I do. LOL



By the way those of you who own Ray Hine line geckoes, did you purchase them directly from Ray Hine? And if so did you pay the ungodly high overseas shipping??? I looked at his site and his shipping to the U.S. from the UK was more than I would pay. Just curious.

Tony

 

[Karmic]

Ok, I'll take a stab at this.

All leopard geckos were part of 1 big happy family a really really long time ago. As mountains and other geographical changes occurred, some groups of the overall population became trapped in "new" (geologically speaking) environments. Let's say, for example, that less spotting is "selected for". Meaning that geckos with fewer spots are not eaten by predators, and therefore live longer, and produce more babies. So, ultimately, these less spotted geckos pass on more genes to the next generation than geckos with normal spotting, who get eaten. Over hundreds/thousands of years these geckos will become a new species, unable to interbreed with their original parent population. This process is calles speciation. Now, when this process has not been completed, we are left with animals who are able to interbreed and produce fertile offspring. These animals are considered to be subspecies. During all of this time, each individual group has undergone their own selective pressure, and have continued to diverge from each other genetically. Each separate population has had new mutations appear and has passed them on to the next generation if they were helpful (or at least not harmful). Each of these populations can produce the same phenotype (physical appearance); however, this appearance is not necessarily caused by the same genes. Unfortunately, our eyes cannot tell the difference.

I don't know much about CTs, but if the accepted definition is that they are from Ray Hines line, then that is just how it is. If by the grace of some higher power, I hatched out a hybino, I couldn't call them a Sunglow, since my geckos are not from UGs bloodline.

Sorry for the long winded post. Allergy meds make me ramble.

 

[ragnew]

Re: kelli

just have no idea where my HQ `s red-stripes or Tremper`s giant CT`s get theyre carrotty-good tails from ! would you happen to know ? im am sure youll tell me they are not carrot-tails unless they are from hines line though LOL

Hi Dan, I don't think Kelli is saying that your geckos aren't carrot tails, from what I've read on this whole thread, it sounds like she's just trying to get across the point that the "True" carrot tails, are ones that are from the Ray Hines line.... They have a completely different genetic background, then any of the other CT's people are going to run across. They're very easy to tell apart from any other line of CT.

As far as whether or not your Tremper or HQ animals have any Ray Hines line in them, well, I'd say that there's a good chance that Ron's animals have at some point in time been introduced to a member of the Hine's. At one point in time, it seems like everyone has to get one of their very own...

Not too sure about HQ's though, that might be a question you'd want to ask them.

 

[KelliH]

i would not know any names , i was younger and not as into them as i am now

Exactly, I was and have been into them for many years and I am trying to explain it to you the best way I can.

i saw them in person at a reptile swap i am sure there were /are plenty of "selectively bred "leopard geckos from before the time you mentioned the import of these "hypo-carrot-tails" , that had very large amounts of orange on their tails and less spotting than the normals ,were called "high yellow " and "hypos" at the time

You are correct Dan. There were selectively bred high yellows and hypos before the hypo carrot tails were in the US. I was one of the breeders that was working with them way back when. They are different from the hypo carrot tails that were introduced in 2000. I have already explained the differences to you, I am not going to waste time typing them all out again.

in my opinion they were carrottails

Well that may be your opinion however the facts are different. The facts are that there was no such leopard gecko called a "carrot tail" or "hypo carrot tail" until Ray Hine released offspring from his WC hypos. He named the morph! Yes there were orange geckos with some orange on the tail but they were not the same thing.

i can see , if you are saying they are not this exclusive " hines hypo-carrot-tail" or" hines CT" i just cant see how you can say they are not carrot-tails

I can say that because I know the difference, which is what I have attempted to teach you, they are selectively bred tangerine leopard geckos with orange on the tail. The Hine line is not exclusive anymore, virtually all the carrot tails you see (Albey, Urban Gecko, Gurmet Rodent) originate from those original Hine line animals. Tell you what, if you do not want to believe me, why don't you email Albey or Urban Gecko and ask them. Or heck, email Ray HIne himself and ask him about it.

but when a gecko thats unrelated to that line , has %50 , how can this be called anything other than CT or CT tangerine

Well, technically they should be called "carrot tail crosses". Pretty much all I produce comes from Ray Hine line stock, so anyone that researches a little bit or asks me would realize that all my hypo tangs and hypo carrot tails have Hine blood in them. It is just easier to call geckos like the one in the picture a "super hypo tang".

! just have no idea where my HQ `s red-stripes or Tremper`s giant CT`s get theyre carrotty-good tails from ! would you happen to know ? im am sure youll tell me they are not carrot-tails unless they are from hines line though LOL

Hey I know! Why don't you email Ron and HQR and ask them if their geckos are "carrot tails"? I am sure they will explain to you that while their animals have a good amount of orange on the tail, they are not hypo carrot tails. Myself and Justyn have interviewed both Matt from HQR and Ron Tremper, and both of them say they have never brought in any hypo carrot tails to their red stripe or albino projects.

SO YEAH, I am going to tell you the truth, as much as you do not want to seem to hear it, or as much as you refuse to listen to someone that has been working with these animals for more than 10 years and who also has/is researching all these facts for a future publication. I know my stuff when it comes to leopard gecko morphs. You can have your opinion and that's fine but myself and anyone else with any real knowledge of the history of leopard gecko morphs knows the truth.