Dawn Grassi

[Cheyenness]

This is as the ad read...


BEAUTIFUL BLOOD X SNOW FEMALE

Awesome 9 month old 17" Blood x Snow female,she is in perfect health,has no tail nip or missing toes and is beautiful,this is her normal coloring,she is not wetted down or fired up,she is in partial shed!!!She eats like a pig.Buyer is to pay with paypal.And pay $40 for shipping

I bought this dragon and she arrived yesterday 04/02/2004. At first glance I thought she was overly dehydrated and put her in a nice warm bath. I then sat down and left Dawn feedback on Reptibid because the dragon had arrived and looked a good size and healthy. After her bath I put her in her new cage and went about my normal day. I didn't bother her too much because I didn't want her stressing out....

Later that evening I really noticed this dragons eyes and posted on another web sites BD forum about her. I got several replies and all basically said this dragon had a bad vit B deficiency and that it must have been going on for months.

All the ad pictures were taken from above and did not show the dragons eyes. I contacted the seller and asked her about this and told her what I knew about "droopy eyes" and what I had heard. She replied and said the dragon was healthy and had a vet check and clean bill of health a month earlier. I also asked for a copy of the vet visit and this request was ignored. All I ever got back was arguments that this dragon was healthy and fine and nothing was wrong with her.

I tried asking for a partial refund or a full refund with them paying return shipping since the dragon was misrepresented.... all were refused.

I figured it was time to finally come to the BOI and post this... I am a little "wound up" right now and will sit and think and post more relevant info later this evening.

Here is a picture from the ad .. I will post a close up of the dragon's eye in a reply post

 

[Cheyenness]

Close up of the dragon

 

[CheriS]

Lisa

I saw this post on another forum and was one that responded, because when I saw the picture, I thought I had seen this dragon before months ago. Since I moderate on a bearded dragon medical forum, I save pictures sent to me for future reference. I searched through my medical pictures and found the one I remembered. It was of a dragon that was 4 months old then and it is dated October 13, 2003. That would make it 9 months old now.

I can not say for sure this is the same dragon, but the markings of both dragons,the color and age are right. I and three others looked at and compared the pictures prior to contacting you and all of us think it is the same dragon. This is not something common in bearded dragons, of thousands I have worked with, I have only seen it one other time and heard of it twice, hard to imagine there are two dragons out there the same age, color and markings with this symptom. Also, it is not something that develops overnight, but takes months to have visual signs of the underlying problem, the seller had to know there was a problem and should have disclosed it. In all cases I know of, they have been very serious illnesses and this a symptom of it.

In the picture sent to me, that owner was concerned about the droopy eyes as it had also been in with a dragon that was infected with a virus that is contagious and was advised to take her to a vet ASAP, many diseases can cause this, mainly Vitamin B deficiencies or malabsorbtion of vitamins, liver problems, renal failure and some genetic disorders. No matter which, it will take a competent vet and test to determine the cause and possible treatment, that is going to be expensive. You will have to keep this one quarantined and use really good washing, cleaning and not mixing furnishings or cleaning items between this dragon and your others.

You have done what you should, contacted to seller and advised them there is a problem, they did not disclose it in advertising or when you inquired about her, that was negligent on their part as it is real obvious she has a problem.

If they did in fact get her medical care as they say, they should provide that vet's name to you and the information so you can contact him/her and find out what test were done or treatment and the findings. They still should have told you in advance of buying her, I doubt if you were aware of this, you would have bought her and I bet the seller knew that too. The fact they did not disclose it, to me seems deceptive on their part. They should take the animal back and refund you all cost involved or at minimum if you decide to keep her, cover the cost for her to be seen and treated.

Personally, I would return her and not risk my other animals, I certainly would not expect it to cost me when the seller was aware of it.

 

[beardiecrazy]

I too looked at the pictures in question.....looks like the same dragon to me as well....

In good faith, this information should have been given by the seller, they had to know the droopy eyes were not a normal thing....I have never seen one in person myself and have only seen pics of 1 prior to these pics.

The seller needs to accept the animal return, pay for it's return and refund the money that was paid for it and the original shipping as the dragon was grossly misrepresented without disclosure of the droopy eyes.....

 

[Stardust]

From the picture alone, it doesn't look like there are crusties or excessive draining which could suggest a cold or debri in the eye. It appears to be clean which would tell me that it is very possible that it could be a much more serious problem.
I would ask the seller for confimation again of the vet that saw this beardie (if in fact there was really a vet visit). If they can't or won't produce this I would return that animal at the first time that is safe for the beardie to travel. Take more pictures and keep all receipts of what you do.
I would also expect a full refund as it was not disclosed to you prior to you buying the animal.
If you decide to keep this animal (which I do not recommend) take it to a vet at first possible date and take FULL precaution measures to make sure it is not passed to any other animals you may own.
It is obvious this beardie has had this for awhile and it is probably progressively getting worse. I think it is deplorable the seller would send out an animal with droopy eyes like this. Worse yet, did not even give you the choice on whether you wanted to take on the care of this animal in the condition it is in.
I would make every effort to get your money back, contact paypal, go higher up if you do not like what you hear the first time. Contact repti-bid and show them a picture of the dragons eye, perhaps they can do something to where the seller can't sell there anymore. You will at least feel good that you have stopped one doorway to this seller.
Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Cheyenness]

Lisa

This is not something common in bearded dragons, of thousands I have worked with, I have only seen it one other time and heard of it twice, hard to imagine there are two dragons out there the same age, color and markings with this symptom. Also, it is not something that develops overnight, but takes months to have visual signs of the underlying problem, the seller had to know there was a problem and should have disclosed it. In all cases I know of, they have been very serious illnesses and this a symptom of it.

I had also written and told them it was not a common thing and that 99.9% of Beardies do not show this type of abnormalities. They responded with
"She has never been sick or anything.I have seen several dragons with eyes like that and did not know it was any kind of problem.I never heard of the droopy eyed syndrom.She recently received a clean bill of health from the vet."

That is when I asked for a copy of the receipt from the vet visit.

 

[CheriS]

did they hatch and raise her?

Kinda hard to believe they think that is normal or that they have seen many with it?????? always the possiblilty it is genetic and in their lines, but I don't think so. A vet would have noticed that.... it also occurs in mammals with some diseases and kidney problems.

Even so, why did they NOT tell you about it when you inquired and why only overhead pictures, none showing the eyes.

Sorry, I do not buy any of that. They knew there was a problem, they hid it, and now will not do anything about it..... after you contacted them within 24 hours? Do they have a wesbite or terms anywhere?

 

[Cheyenness]

I don't think they have a web site. But in another email from them today I got this

-----------

Fw: blood x snow female on reptibid
Date: 4/3/2004 4:46:34 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: EDITED FOR PRIVACY
Reply To:
To: [email protected]
CC:
BCC:
Sent on:
Sent from the Internet (Details)
Internet Address Card Attached

This is what my guarantee covers,LIVE HEALTHY ARRIVAL,and attached is your email to me from when you received her.Dawn

------------

Says Live, healthy arrival. To a person who may have bought her as a "first time" beardie, she does outwardly appear healthy. However, anyone who has owned any dragons before knows those eyes are not healthy and are a sign of other problems.

No they did not hatch and raise her and said they had bought 3 sisters. I was told in one email (when they were insisting she was healthy) that they have a sister that is proven and gravid again (I won't go into the fact a nine month old was bred). Then in another email they stated they only had her 6-8 weeks. The time line there just doesn't add up to me.

 

[CheriS]

That dragon did not arrive healthy, thats a long term condition, not overnight and certainly not even in a few weeks.

Have you told them you posted this here and asked them to reply? Its only fair, they may have more information or proof that this is not a problem or something they are aware of and documented not a problem for her health, that I and others have never ran into.

9 month old sister that is proven..... again??? she would have to have been breed when she was 7 months old to be again!!!

 

[Cheyenness]

Have you told them you posted this here and asked them to reply? Its only fair

Just did

 

[Jeffy1]

This particular dragon was purchased six to eight weeks ago.I do have 2 of her sisters(older)The dragon is healthy and I believe it may be genetic.I would not sell a dragon if it was sick.Also Lisa has a website and is experienced with bearded dragons so here is the email she sent me when she received the dragon:

She is here and looks great!


Thanks
Lisa Dodd


Quality, Hardy, Friendly and Affordable Bearded dragons
Beginners Basics Reptiles

This is also the feedback she left for me on reptibid:

You have new Feedback on your auction item


Feedback writer: Beginnersbasicsreptiles

with following Comments:

Great packaging and equally great dragon. Looks very well cared for. Thanks for a smooth, easy transaction!


I DO GUARANTEE LIVE HEALTHY ARRIVAL,AND THE ABOVE STATEMENTS WERE FROM LISA WHEN SHE RECEIVED THE DRAGON.

 

[Jeffy1]

Cheri Smith Lisa Dodd

How can you say that we knew this dragon was sick?? It is not sick and I believe it is genetic.You should not just go on here saying that "they knew it was sick" And in my previous reply,she emailed me and left feedback saying she was happy with the dragon!!! Also she is not new to bearded dragons,so if there was a problem why was I told that she appeared to be well taken care of??? This is ridiculous,She also said I should refund her money and she will keep the dragon,HA!! I don't think so!! Until that dragon is proven to be sick I would appreciate everybody not insinuating that she is sick!! That is not right.Anybody can email me to see the emails from beginners basics,I offered a full refund over 24 hours after she received the dragon.So let's not say I'm the bad person here.

 

[DThomas]

Jeff,

To help clear somthings up, can you please post the emails between you and Lisa and also a copy of the vet report showing the clean bill of health?

I don't think the vet report or atleast the receipt would be too much to ask for and will go along way showing your side of this.

 

[CheriS]

I am assuming this is Dawn replying as Jeffy or Jeffy for Dawn?

So there is no problem? You will give her a full refund and she is out not money on a dragon you "believe it is genetic" and forgot to tell her?

Thats does bring up another question, if the dragon was intended for breeding, don't you think you owed it to the buyer to disclose that *YOU BELIEVE* she has a genetic defect? Why no pictures showing the eyes or telling the buyer before she was shipped, you already admitted you were aware of it above since you think it is genetic and she oviously had this issue the time you had her?

I think Lisa already agreed that she posted that the dragon looked good, she stated she unpacked her, gave her a bath and put her up to warm to avoid stressing her, it was AFTER that she saw the eye problem and she states she contacted Dawn right away and was told the dragon had a clean bill of health from a vet.

Its a moot point if you are refunding her costs. But if not, could we see that receipt for the Vet and the name?

You have two sister of this one? Do they have the same problem since you "believe is genetic"? Are you selling those too or only this one that shows what you "believe is genetic" that you forgot to mention to the buyer?

Do you often fail to mention "believed genetic" problems to a buyers? Don't you think that MIGHT be an important part of the sale when they are intending it to be a future breeder?

Anyway, thanks for offereing a full refund of her costs on here to her, we will wait to see that happens

 

[Jeffy1]

HERE IS SOME OF OUR EMAILS:

In a message dated 4/3/2004 9:59:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes:
If you want you can send her back for a full refund.She had a complete check up about 1 month ago.Let me know,Dawn

She arrived alive and in perfect health,you are assuming she is sick just because of her eyes,every dragon is different.I am sorry but I will not pay the return shipping.Like I said if you want to send her back I will refund your original cost,but just because of droopy eyes???I have a sister of hers just like that,and she is proven and gravid again.I will not do anything money wise unless I receive the dragon back in healthy condition.Also when you received her you emailed me and said you were very happy with her.You can't change your mind the next day.Let me know what you want to do.I already contacted paypal and your complaint will be dropped.I am trying to work with you but I know that she is fine.Dawn
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Blood x snow female


In a message dated 4/3/2004 9:59:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes:
If you want you can send her back for a full refund.She had a complete check up about 1 month ago.Let me know,Dawn
Are you willing to cover the cost of return shipping? and also refund me in full the $240.00 I paid via Paypal?

I feel she was misrepresented by you and you were aware of it. You knew about her eyes and never once mentioned it in the ad or in emails to me after I paid. Nor did you show a picture of her eyes in the ad. They were all shots taken from above her in an attempt to hide her medical problem.

This dragon is a prime candidate for liver failure and obviously has some sort of absorption problem. She should not be resold to another buyer. Especially a novice bearded dragon keeper. I told you in a previous email that all these signs and symptoms she is showing have taken quite a while to get this bad and can not happen over night or in a few days time. She has been ill for months and this was not disclosed to me. In fact, the ad read




BEAUTIFUL BLOOD X SNOW FEMALE



Awesome 9 month old 17" Blood x Snow female,she is in perfect health,has no tail nip or missing toes and is beautiful,this is her normal coloring,she is not wetted down or fired up,she is in partial shed!!!She eats like a pig.Buyer is to pay with paypal.And pay $40 for shipping






You can simply refund me my $240 and I can keep her here and try to get her the needed medical attention, or you can refund me the $240 plus return shipping and take care of her yourself. The choice is yours, I await your reply.


Thanks
Lisa Dodd


Quality, Hardy, Friendly and Affordable Bearded dragons
Beginners Basics Reptiles

Live hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST!

 

[beardiecrazy]

Jeff,
I agree with the above post.....

Personally having dragons for many years and breeding for almost 7 now, I've never seen a dragon with droopy eyes like that, except in pics of dragons with health problems...most would know that was a sign of deficiency or illness, and I can't believe a herp vet wouldn't have recognized that as well.....

In all honesty.....your pics on reptibid were deceiving, I saw them before Lisa bought the dragon, even if you thought she was fine, something like that should have been in the photographs for all to see as it is very, very unusual.....

 

[beardiecrazy]

Retract that I agree with the above post ...several posts came while I was posting........sorry about that....I was too slow...lol

 

[Jeffy1]

ACTUALLY THE EYES WEREN'T QUITE AS DROOPY AS WHAT LISA IS POSTING.HERE IS A PIC.ALSO ON THAT AUCTION I HAD SEVERAL EMAILS FROM PEOPLE WANTING HEAD SHOTS OF HER AND I TOOK THIS PIC FOR THEM.

 

[Hues1]

In my opinion...that dragon does appear to be outwardly "healthy". Seems to be of good weight and structure...but, if the droopy eyes is something that is a genetic defect as you claim...why would you sell it? why would you breed the siblings?

All you're doing is passing that defective gene on and spreading it into other gene pools....even if babies this female produces all appear to be normal healthy babies...whats to say when the offspring are bred together, the droopy eyes dont show up again?

Ethically/morally...I personally feel that is a huge no no.

The goal is to produce strong healthy "nuclear proof" specimens...not genetically unsound ones.

 

[mikey]

Can we see the vet report ?

Jean Hubert