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Bad Guy DEAD SNAKES from Kevin South of The Constrictors Labrynth

Southern Wolf said:
That is one of the reasons I went after Nick to post the proof or quit saying it. I knew what it could do... and what saying someone had it in their collection could do. As much as I'd like to see Nick out of this hobby/industry.... I would never say he had it in his collection without solid proof in hand when I said it.

I just wish other folks felt the same as I do.
Click to expand...
:iagree:

I just wish people would realize how serious IBD is.

If someone locally would have knowingly "dumped", as nick said, an IBD snake into my collection there would'nt be a very happy ending.

I feel real sorry for the young couple in question. It is really sad when you have to worry about IBD in your collection.
 
How long was this snake in Nick's possession? Just curious because what if the IBD (assuming the snake did in fact have IBD) came from Nick's collection, not Kevin's?
 
I am severely bothered by Nick's IBD accusations, and know that it is not something to throw around without definitive proof...and I am incredibly disgusted by everything he has represented himself to be. I feel terribly bad for Wendy and her husband for their issues with Nick- whether or not they recognize it yet, there are definite issues they have with him...and I'm concerned for their animals after Nick knowingly sold them a sick snake.

I'm also a bit shaken by the fact that the director/organizer of this upcoming show in Colorado has read this thread and has no issues with Nick vending at his show. Maybe he needs to read the other threads about him, as there has not been a single positive thing that Nick has contributed here. Regardless of whether or not he is selling animals at the show, these events' representations are based largely on who they allow to represent them.

And to at least touch on the original topic of this thread, Kevin isn't blameless, but at least has represented himself in a professional manner. I hope for his sake as well that the IBD results show negative.
 
RobNJ said:
I'm also a bit shaken by the fact that the director/organizer of this upcoming show in Colorado has read this thread and has no issues with Nick vending at his show. Maybe he needs to read the other threads about him, as there has not been a single positive thing that Nick has contributed here. Regardless of whether or not he is selling animals at the show, these events' representations are based largely on who they allow to represent them.
Click to expand...


Just goes to show that he has the same mentality as Nick does. It's all about the money.
 
I dont know much about IBD either, except for googling things, but it looks very very serious.
Crying wolf of IBD in someones collection looks like you would be crying ... fire in the middle of an apartment building.
Not a good decision.
 
If the vet's report says the histopathology tests confirmed inclusion bodies then there WERE inclusions in the biopsies/surgical specimens sent to be tested. There's no PENDING in there anywhere, or it would say it was pending and not confirmed.
 
Since the report from Colorado State University (dated 5-9-11) is only a preliminary report and indicates the necrospsy & histopathologic reports are both pending, IBD is NOT yet conclusive, only suspected.

IMHO, kudos go only to Wendy Finkle (and Brad) for recognizing that poor snake needed medical attention and then going the distance to determine the cause of it's abnormal behavior and decline. I only hope IBD is not the culprit.

Frankly, Nick and Kevin are now two sellers I will avoid. Everyone else verbalized my sentiments. 'Nuff said.
 
Unless I am mistaken, the histopathology test is "pending", not final.
 

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So, did "Inclusion body disease in boids confirmed by histopathology" mean "Inclusion body disease in boids (needs to be) confirmed by histopathology"?

I agree that Wendy did well. It seems the vet may have jumped the gun (I hope so), which Wendy then relayed to Nick, which wound up here. Not that I am giving Nick ANY slack for what he's done. In fact, being from Colorado myself and spending my youth skiing in Summit County, I sorta wish he'd change his username.....
 
Riyeko said:
I dont know much about IBD either, except for googling things, but it looks very very serious.
Crying wolf of IBD in someones collection looks like you would be crying ... fire in the middle of an apartment building.
Not a good decision.
Click to expand...

There is quite a few good guys and gals here that put a hold on all transactions when IBD was suspected. When confirmed they notified all and put their whole collection down. Years of breeding, expense, racks, cages, equipment and life went out the window. Their reputation did not. They made the right call.

Yes, when you state someone has IBD you better have your ducks in a row.
 
IMO, if Raintree Animal Clinic had positively identified IBD as the cause of death, they would not have forwarded the snake carcass/specimen samples to the University of Colorado for further testing. The case would have been closed there at Raintree with a postive finding for IBD and the report from Raintree would indicate IBD. Obviously, it has not.
 
It also states terminal septicemia which would account for much of the signs noted by the seller and buyer. Loss of appetite, etc, etc. If they did determine this and also found inclusion bodies. I don't think I'm wrong but I'm no expert, the presence of inclusion bodies would not automatically mean IBD. It's seems a very fast determination. You have a snake die late afternoon on one day and transported to CSU and by early afternoon you have a report stating IBD. Then also on the same report that the procedures that determines what is being claimed is still pending. It must be preliminary.
 
okay everyone keeps saying culture in regards to IBD.
We can culture them know? I know I have been away for five years. But I sincerely do not think we spot inclusion bodies through culture.

I thought we got tissue samples. Fixed the tissue samples. Cut the tissue samples. Processed them through proper histo protocols. Stained the slides. Sent them to a Pathologist to read.

But I keep seeing people say send them off for culture. Is this true? Or are we just repeating misinformation? Someone enlighten me. Someone who knows for sure. Not someone who thinks they know.
 
By the way. Inclusion Bodies can also be caused by other viruses. Also the "IBD" symptoms can also be caused by other viruses/diseases.

Everyone just wait for the stuff to be read by a pathologist. Even then, this stuff is practically new. Who knows if they know what they are looking at. Chances are, if they see Inclusion bodies, they will automatically report inclusion body disease. But not all inclusion bodies are the same. Just like not all snakes are the same. Not all viruses are the same. etc etc etc
 
The Constrictors Labrynth said:
This all started back on receipt of the boas on 3/17/11..
Click to expand...

dheideman said:
Wendy said: We got the snake from him on 4.17.11.
Click to expand...

So, the snake was in Nick's possession for a month even before Wendy took it home. I have no idea how quickly IBD spreads. I'm still not convinced there IS IBD, from that vet report. I don't doubt the report is real, but to my (admittedly untrained) eye, it "looks" inconclusive without a necropsy, which is still pending.

But *if* there is IBD, what does that month-long time frame say about where it may have come from? Does anyone that understands the disease a bit better have any insight there?
 
Payara said:
This i the email I got from show host:

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: One of your vendors might have IBD
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 10:19:41 -0700

Thank you for alerting me to this. I have read the VERY long thread and called Nick. He is having trouble opening the lab report and is getting it faxed to him.

I talked to him about his position at the show and what he is bringing. He has told me that for this show he will only bring the minerals, fossils and the crested geckos his daughter hatched out. He has strict quarantine ethics and is going to wait to bring any snakes until the next show.

Thank You
Lynn Kubic
Rocky Mountain Reptile Expo
www.rockymountainreptileexpo.com
720-685-9557
Fax 303-659-0489


Kevin, did Nick ever send you any proof at all of the dead snakes? Any pics?
Click to expand...

For those of you more familiar with IBD, apparently Nick is going to vend at a show. If he does have IBD in his collection, could it be spread on inanimate objects?
Since he apparently sold the snake to a visitor while it was still in quarantine, I'm not sure I would rely on his strict quarantine ethics.
 
One thing that strikes me as odd about the laboratory report posted for Wendy is the wording. "Inclusion body disease of boids confirmed by histopathology." For those familiar with such reports, how often is something stated that conclusively? I'm much more used to seeing phrases like "consistent with".....and I don't believe that the presence of inclusion bodies (if that is how they determined it), in and of itself, gives a definitive diagnosis...unless it was because of the specific organ(s) in which they were found. I know I have seen documentation of inclusion bodies being present with other viruses, but I don't know if the distribution is similar.
 
Mites have long been considered a possible vector...but IBD spreads quite well in a mite free collection, as well.

Chronic emaciation and TERMINAL septicemia - those things say a lot, to me...namely that it is unlikely to have started with Nick if he only had the snake for a month.
However, I wouldn't say that Nick gets an automatic pass IF IBD is accepted as a diagnosis...I can't say with certainty, as I am not familiar enough with the disease; but it certainly seems reasonable that the stated conditions (chronic emaciation and terminal septicemia) would allow for a more rapid deterioration or advancement of symptoms.

At this point, I'm still not convinced of the IBD claim...but, I don't see that one could rule out Nick, Kevin, or the person that sold Kevin the snake, as the snake based on what has been presented here.
Just for the sake of confirmation - is this the snake that had the chronic wheeze? Is it the one that Nick reported as drooling snot?
 
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