ED Clark (BAD GUY!!)

[MirandaTwilight]

The thing about offering a baby "red" crested gecko as a suitable solution is that most crested geckos are born with a rusty brown or reddish coloration that they will eventually grow out of. If the buyer purchased a female from Ed with the intention that she was a red and she wasn't, what's to guarantee that the replacement gecko will turn out to be a true red in the end? Crested gecko genetics are not absolute as may be the case with other herps, and even breeding together a pair of red cresteds will not ensure that the resulting offspring will be red themselves.

 

[Jaybee]

If that time line is correct (and anna doesn't seem to dispute it), then I don't think she had any business to start a bad guy thread about you.

I think you won this one.

There goes my theory about you and good business and when pigs fly.

Mr. Kimmel, I don't post much here but I do read sometimes, and I respect your opinion, because you come down on scammers hard and often.

However, I don't think that it is right for Anna to get stuck with an animal that was not what was advertised. The gecko advertised has a lot more cream on it (more desired trait; generally worth more) and whether it fires up to the same red as the one advertised has yet to be seen (again, red is a more desired trait than brown) but that's beside the point - by the cream markings, it is not the same gecko.

He has promised her a red baby to make amends - however, as Mandy said, the majority of crested babies hatch out red, and only after maybe six months to a year can you tell what color the gecko is going to be as the red falls out. If Anna accepts a month-old gecko, it may look red now, and she could post "Okay, Ed Clark gave me an extra gecko to make up for it, everything is cool," but in a year she could come to realize that it's just another brown gecko.

Simply put, she did not get what she paid for the first time, why would the second time be better?

She may have moved a bit quickly in this, yes. And if she told Ed she was A-OK with receiving a baby "in 2 weeks" as Ed said, she should have let it drop or if she had a change of heart, worked everything out with him in private, IF he would answer her e-mails or phone calls (Anna, if you have the e-mails he has left unanswered, you should post them).

But Ed himself said "The 2 geckos are the exact 2 offered in the ad" and has never argued that she's tried a switch on him, so there's not really a chance Anna is scamming Ed. She wanted to make people aware that he pulled this on her because he could do it to someone else. If I'd received the wrong gecko and the seller tried to snow me into believing otherwise, I would also make a BOI post about it. I wouldn't want it to happen to someone else.

 

[Otter_23]

I guess I don't see it as a win lose type game. What I see is that Ed sent her the wrong female and anyone that has owned/bred cresties for awhile know that as well as Ed does. Red cresties are one of the more sought after cresties right now especially ones that fire up more on the fire engine red side. Now throw in a red harley type and it is even more sought after. Ed sent her a subpar red female crested not the one pictured in the ad. It is kind of the same in the ball python world with pastels, spiders, mojaves etc... some are just hands down nicer than others. It appears that when Ed was contacted and realized she knew it wasn't the same crested he tried damage control by offering a red hatchling. That is great but like posted you don't know how that baby is going to turn out until it gets closer to adult age. Also the flame she recieved will not produce babies with the side flames (unless bred to a male that has the flame) like the female she did not recieve will. Meaning she will not be able to produce babies of quality that she would be able to with the one Ed didn't send her.

My issues with this thread is ED knows that is not the same gecko and it disturbs me that he claims it is. It appears to me that Ed is trying to take advantage of another herp owner who isn't as entrenched in the herp scene or forums. It is also sad to see other posters who don't have much experience with cresteds completely ignore several posters who raise, breed and sell cresteds opinions on this issues. There several crested breeders that have posted and provided proof with explanation that the female is absolutely not the same crested.

My last point is Ed did offer a hatchling but like said who knows how it will turn out as an adult and if Ed is lying about original one sent who is to say he actually sends a hatchling from his red parents and doesn't just send a hatchling from some buckskin pair and a year down the road when the baby has grown and it is obvious it is not red and the OP posts again everyone will say "hey that was a year ago why are you dragging this up again he tried sorry it didn't turn out red". What if the OP maintains a smaller collection and really just wants quality geckos? That female is not a quality gecko and she would have to wait another year to see if the hatchling would be a quality gecko. He should truely give her another option other than a hatchling such as sending back the female and recieving the female she paid for or refunding some of her money and apologizing for sending her the wrong female. I guess I don't get it if most of you had been send a poorer quality Cham, ball python, bearded etc... when you paid for a higher quality animal you would be upset.

 

[Chameleon Company]

If the buyer purchased a female from Ed with the intention that she was a red and she wasn't, what's to guarantee that the replacement gecko will turn out to be a true red in the end

First and foremost:caveat emptor. That is the reason for TOS (Terms of Service). The buyer needs to know what they are in writing, and if they are savvy enough to anticipate that what is "red" to one person may not be "red" to another, they need to be sure that concern is covered, usually by a simple satisfaction guarantee within a certain time frame. It applies to the original purchase, and depending on corrective actions, all subsequent parts of the deal.

Jaybee, rather than Anna getting "stuck with an animal that was not what was advertised", while she may have eventually ended up with an animal she did not want, all indications are that she willingly accepted it, evaluated it, and was happy within the terms of the deal. That's not "getting stuck". Ed's response to Anna's eventual dissatisfaction is certainly open to a variety of approvals or disapprovals.

 

[critical bill]

But Ed himself said "The 2 geckos are the exact 2 offered in the ad" and has never argued that she's tried a switch on him, so there's not really a chance Anna is scamming Ed. She wanted to make people aware that he pulled this on her because he could do it to someone else.

Pulled what on her? You know for a fact that he intentionally switched the advertised gecko? It couldn't have been accident?

And where do you get the idea that I'm accusing Anna of scamming Ed? Maybe she is, but I haven't alluded to it. Is it not possible that the female gecko she is showing us is not his and just another she had in her collection? Anything is possible, but how does anyone know what actually happened since no one was there to see the animals packed up or there to see what was received? You're using Ed's lack of arguing to convince yourself he is guilty. With all the possibilities that just isn't enough for me.

She cant prove Ed sent her the wrong animal and neither can he prove that she pulled a switch. A resolution she seemed happy about was offered two days ago, and then she follows up that resolution by labeling him a bad guy?

This is one situation where I cant blame him if he decides to let her sweat for a while. Wouldn't even blame him if he chose to wash his hands of it at this point and walked away. He did his best to see her happy and she did her best to ruin his name.

 

[Otter_23]

Jim I agree her initial response was she liked them and maybe was quick to reply, but after the excitement of getting them wore off and she had a chance to closer examine them realized the female wasn't what she had paid for she became unsatisfied. That and the fact that she thought she was recieving animals from a bigger trusted breeder. When I first got in the hobby if the animal arrived on time and was alive a I would shoot an email out saying I got it and it looked great, but then again I also used to believe that bigger breeders would never try to pull a fast one on you and I trusted more than I should have. I now send an email saying I got it and it was alive and wait to give my impression on it until it has settled in for awhile.

The fact is she has had a chance to compare them now and she does realize they are not the same gecko. Ed sent one that was somewhat close which made it a little more difficult but if you take the time and really compare them and know what you are doing and what each one can and can't produce you know those are not the same geckos. At this point it appears as a classic switch on his part and unfortunately some are making it easier for him.

 

[Otter_23]

Pulled what on her? You know for a fact that he intentionally switched the advertised gecko? It couldn't have been accident?

And where do you get the idea that I'm accusing Anna of scamming Ed? Maybe she is, but I haven't alluded to it. Is it not possible that the female gecko she is showing us is not his and just another she had in her collection? Anything is possible, but how does anyone know what actually happened since no one was there to see the animals packed up or there to see what was received? You're using Ed's lack of arguing to convince yourself he is guilty. With all the possibilities that just isn't enough for me.

She cant prove Ed sent her the wrong animal and neither can he prove that she pulled a switch. A resolution she seemed happy about was offered two days ago, and then she follows up that resolution by labeling him a bad guy?

This is one situation where I cant blame him if he decides to let her sweat for a while. Wouldn't even blame him if he chose to wash his hands of it at this point and walked away. He did his best to see her happy and she did her best to ruin his name.

Chuck, Ed himself posted on this thread that the pictures of the two geckos were one and the same, which they are not. In doing so he is saying that is the gecko he sent Anna.

 

[Otter_23]

The 2 geckos are the exact 2 offered in the ad.

The female pic was taken at nite fired up, and of course all pretty and red.

Compare the breaks on the dorsal pattern of the female....exact gecko as the pics she took.

Probably just a newbie mistake on her part for not knowing how often these guys can change colors.

Here he is stating it himself. I have the much respect for Kelli who has been doing this for a long time and she is even saying they are not the same gecko.

 

[compoundB]

This is a series of emails between Ed and myself sent in May 08 about THE SAME PAIR of Red Harlequin crested geckos. I was interested in them myself, and asked for more pictures. The picture of the male was fine, but the FEMALE picture he sent was clearly a different gecko. This is the pic he sent me.

supposed to be this girl?

Don't forget to read from the bottom up.


END
_____________________________________________________________

It may be JR, I have many pics on comp of red cresties to choose from and I might have grabbed the wrong 1, will have to take some more pics of her.

John Quion <[email protected]> wrote:

Ed,

ok. ill have to give it some thought.
im fairly certain that fired pic of the female you sent me is a different gecko.
ill let you know.

JR





Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:06:02 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]

$---.00 plus ship.

can do $--.00 usps express shipping.

John Quion <[email protected]> wrote:

thanks ed.

how much for just the male?





Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:58:34 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]

JR, looked them over real good today and I can say they are perfect. no FTS. but that has never concerned me at all.

The female is fired up but she gets better. the male is not fired up and I don't have any of him that way.


[email protected] wrote:

*************
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NOTE: DO NOT flag this message as SPAM/JUNK as your ability to receive legitimate messages from Kingsnake.com Classifieds may be compromised
*************

hey ed,

I've bought a harley female from you before, those two look nice though...
got some Qs:


either show signs of FTS?
both got full toes/tails?
can you send fired pics?



thanks ed.


JR
___________________________________________________
^START OF EMAIL^






Take it for what it is, nothing more.
I never received any pictures or further contact.



Ed, Id like to hear what you have to say about the comparison photos?
In you experience, could this be the same gecko?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Mark,
All that may be, and we are in agreement that Anna was first satisfied and then later not satisfied. With all the opportunity that the OP has had to provide exact dates and timelines, which do exist, can anyone here say that they know what day she received the animal, and then after being happy with it, how much time passed before she registered any dissatisfaction to the seller ? We've got over 100 posts and that info isn't even on the table yet ? Whether either party woulda shoulda coulda done things differently will always be open. There may be enough penny-wise and pound-foolish for both parties to share here.

 

[Scrletbegonia88]

the only reason why i was willing to acept the female gecko was because i honestly dont feel he would give me a refund and cause the gecko is gravid. she was already shipped gravid and i dont want to risk her dying and some how i become at fault. Or have him claim something like i just sent him a box without a gecko

here are some emails. i wish i had record the phone calls but he he sworn that was the same gecko even after i showed him how they were different. after the last message i havent heard from him for a couples of days and only when i used my boyfriends cellphone did i get a reply afterwards. also next to the emails are the photos.


Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:50:43 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]

They will color up at nite after fed and misted, but Im sure you know that. keep a nest box in with them as she will lay eggs.



RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.‏
From: anna diaz ([email protected])
Sent: Thu 7/03/08 4:07 PM
To: Ed Clark ([email protected])

Security scan upon download
GetAttach...jpg (17.3 KB)

i know you are an honest person but i finally got her to fire up and she fired up a brown color. all im saying is that you accidentally sent me the wrong gecko




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:32:28 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]


The geckos I sent you were the exact ones in the ad, the pic of the female fired up was a little bit older. I used that1 because thats the only pic of her I had with her fired up.

She is 1 of the best red females I ever had. give it some time....feed her and mist every night till you see her fired up , take some pics then compare to the pic you have and you will she its the exact 1.

I am a very honest seller and would not play games by switching animals that you have bought, please wait till you see her fired up before you jump to conclusions. Thanks Ed


RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.‏
From: anna diaz ([email protected])
Sent: Tue 7/01/08 2:08 PM
To: Ed Clark ([email protected])

Security scan upon download
070108134...JPG (22.0 KB), 1.JPG (27.7 KB), 2.JPG (24.7 KB)
im not really going off of color because geckos change from time to time and cameras sometimes alter it too. im am going off of marking and the two thing that led me to believe that it was a different gecko is 1) the side marking are different in the gecko you sent me they are missing. 2) in the orignal photo there are a few freckles/dal spots on the the head of the girl and they are missing on head of the gecko that was sent to me

anna

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
as for the red baby. he never called me back within the next days like he said so i assumed that it was a lie to shut me up and that is why i did this post

 

[Lucille]

There are certainly enough people who have a difference of opinion about whether these are the same that I don't think any opinion is definitive.

Ed is sending another critter. I think under the circumstances that he could not do much more to make his customer happy.

 

[Otter_23]

Jim
We can say from the post above that on May 13th he was still answering questions about the female. Anna posted her concerns on another forum July 5th so that should narrow down the time frame.

Ed has stated the geckos are the same, which they are not. He has not admitted to sending the wrong gecko and tried to play it off as her being a newbie. I'm not really sure how the timeline is going to excuse him from sending the wrong advertised animal and lying about it.

 

[Otter_23]

The gecko you have posted pictures of will never fire up red like the one advertised. If you look at the first pics of the male he had sent one is somewhat fired up and one isn't the one that isn't is still a pinkish color and not brown. There is a big difference between a brick brown/red crested and a fire engine red crested. He sent you a subpar red gecko.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Ana purchased "the gecko" and not "a gecko". This means she should have received what she paid for and it's clear she didn't.

 

[Scrletbegonia88]

here are some more emails
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:50:43 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]

They will color up at nite after fed and misted, but Im sure you know that. keep a nest box in with them as she will lay eggs.

anna diaz <[email protected]> wrote:

oh every one is safe and sound i checked the tracking number and it only said whittier i didn't really know which location and i wasn't sure if UPS took Fedex shipments and such. sorry thanks for everything they are both huge





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:49:44 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]

Sent fedex priority to the UPS Store, sent you a tracking # yesterday afternoon. at this email.

anna diaz <[email protected]> wrote:

i just want to make sure you sent them to address below if so please email me because i thought you wee going to send them through Ups and the address is for one of there store. and i will wait over there i have tried calling you but had no luck
-anna






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:25:03 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]



On the way to you Anna.

They will not call you, Sorry. but will be there before 10:30 am

anna diaz <[email protected]> wrote:

13502 WHITTIER BLVD STE H
WHITTIER, CA 90605-1944

Phone: (562) 907-3800
Fax: (562) 698-9912

can you also have them call me when the package arrives
thankyou
anna




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:32:23 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]

Please send the address of where you want them shipped to.

anna diaz <[email protected]> wrote:

canyou shipp them on monday if so please contact me at 562 447 0810




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:38:34 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]


Anna, Hello. Fedex priority overnite before 10:30 am is $68.86

I can normally do $30.00 shipping but its way to hot for that.

anna diaz <[email protected]> wrote:
it must of been the angle of the photo but eithier way i want them!! lol i sent you a payment of 125 and i was wondering if you can send me a shipping quote for the area code 90602
thank you
anna






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:17:53 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]


Looked your male over real good tonite and no FTS.

That has never bothered me at all, because that tail can be gone with the flip of a light switch anyway.

anna diaz <[email protected]> wrote:
i was noticing that the male has some FTS and i was wondering if you can make the price 350 shipped??
thank you anna






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 12:18:41 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.
To: [email protected]

Can do a pay plan, the pics posted are the best I have. I will look thru my pics and see if I have any others that are in focus.

[email protected] wrote:
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*************

hello i was wondering if you accept payment plans?? and if possible do you have any other pictures??
thankyou
anna

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[Otter_23]

There are certainly enough people who have a difference of opinion about whether these are the same that I don't think any opinion is definitive.

Ed is sending another critter. I think under the circumstances that he could not do much more to make his customer happy.

Lucille,
People that raise/breed cresteds are saying it is not the same gecko, people that have limited or no experience gecko are saying it could be the same. I would put my trust in those that work with cresteds in which we are postive it is not the same gecko. Once again sending another sub par crested or one that may not even turn out red is not a resolution. Anna has stated she wants a refund. To make the customer happy he could have been honest to begin with and offered a refund or partial refund instead of ignoring her emails and calls. It astounds me that you are giving him a pass on this.

 

[Otter_23]

Wish I could edit posts so I can keep them all in one but oh well. His comment on the FTS is also disturbing. A gecko with floppy tail syndrome isn't consider 100% flawless gecko. Cresteds with FTS or no tails are sold for discounts because of the imperfections. His comment about them losing thier tails because of a light switch is a smoke screen. The more I read his replies the more I realize I would never do business with him.

 

[compoundB]

Mark,
... can anyone here say that they know what day she received the animal, and then after being happy with it, how much time passed before she registered any dissatisfaction to the seller ? We've got over 100 posts and that info isn't even on the table yet ? ...

In case you missed it, she received the animals July 1 and about 2 days passed when she told Ed on July 3 that she thought he sent her the wrong gecko.

But seriously guys, look real long and hard at this photo:

The patterns are similar, I'll admit, but different.
They could have been closely related (most likely) but are NOT the same gecko!

Where is the harley pattern on her side???
Where did that notch come from?
The large white "porthole" on her side vanished?



Are you guys looking at the same photo I am???

 

[Chameleon Company]

Wow. I had to jump back and forth with the emails to conclude (I think) that they were shipped on 30 June, which means they arrived on July 1st, and that there's an email from Ed to Anna on July 2nd addressing her concern that it might not be the same female, meaning Anna had conveyed the issue no later than one day after receipt ? (I realize some communications may have been by phone. If that is correct (and it would help next time Anna if you organize it, with a few comments), then Ed owes her, either just on customer dissatisfaction alone, or in the view that its not the same critter. It would appear to be the wrong animal, and that the customer responded promptly. Ed owes a satisfactory solution IMMHO.

Compound B. The dates had not yet been posted when I noted that they had not been put forth, and OBTW, its a July 2nd email where Ed is addressing her mix-up issue. He may have also mentioned it later.