Ed Clark,don't buy frogs from him!

[Ed Clark]

Deborah, you have been posting post after post with nothing but speculation then following it with something like "I really dont know" or something similar to that? Why, what purpose does that do except cloud the issues.

Just sit back and watch the big dogs hunt!!

Apparently he has an "out" and can now claim that the "zoo" won't give him permission (it might even be true). My opinion is: he's going to let it slip to the back burners.

Actually, there's not much we can really do. He did follow the TOS; the animal arrived live...whether or not he's spreading sick animals again and hiding behind the TOS that only guarantees live arrival (I have been told it's common in the frog trade) is anyone's guess.

Apparently Ed has now found his "niche." These animals, frogs, die at the "drop of a hat for no apparent reason".

 

[Tere Salazar]

What, Ed? You can come in and try to talk down to Deborah, but you can't answer Bobby's questions?

I'd sure like to know...what exactly is your explanation of what those pictures show?

 

[deborahbroadus]

Deborah, you have been posting post after post with nothing but speculation then following it with something like "I really dont know" or something similar to that? Why, what purpose does that do except cloud the issues.

Just sit back and watch the big dogs hunt!!

Ahh, don't worry about me. Pay no attention to my posts. It's been a slow day.

However, Bobby had an interesting post that you should look at.

 

[varnyard]

Ed, I do not know if I fall under the "Big Dog" group, but please address the questions in the post of mine with the pictures. I see the swollen front leg with the red toes and wrist. I see a swollen nose as well as a rash on his back leg. I see an eye that seems to be sunken in. Care to address this Ed?

This is your chance to clear this up, I would not want to be accused of not giving you your chance at a defense.

 

[Ed Clark]

Bobby, I will make this offer to you.

I will send you a CB whites Tree frog.

You send it anywhere you want to do whatever testing you want.

You pay for all the tests you want done.

I will be honest with you that I have very little faith in the labs testing frogs.

That will possibly answer the questions you seek answers for.

 

[varnyard]

Bobby, I will make this offer to you.

I will send you a CB whites Tree frog.

You send it anywhere you want to do whatever testing you want.

You pay for all the tests you want done.

I will be honest with you that I have very little faith in the labs testing frogs.

That will possibly answer the questions you seek answers for.

Ed, you did not answer the questions, let me make it a bit more easy for you. Does that look like a healthy animal?

 

[Seamus Haley]

I was concerned because she was not eating and because I did the reasearch and am aware of their appetites.

They do have a very strong feeding response, when kept appropriately. The day they come out of shipping in a new environment after being handled under brighter lights with a camera going off and having tongs bumped into their face? Not so much.

I never put her in a bad enviornment. It is not possible for her to get ill and die from septicemia in a day Ed.

There are strong indications that the environment was far less than ideal. There are doubts about the accuracy of your statements regarding the humidity, you have not indicated the temperature, the placement of the enclosure in your home, you mentioned cleaning the enclosure with a weakened bleach solution, you did note that you used dechlorinated water but have not mentioned any other chemical factors of your tap water... There are a lot of unknowns that might contain factors related directly to the animal's death. You did get a necropsy done and as a generalization, I'd tend to trust them BUT... there's a distinct lessening in the accuracy when looking at an amphibian and there are some questionable areas when it comes to the simple fact that it wasn't done in-house by your own vet. What temperature was it kept at between the time you left it there and the time it was shipped? How was it packaged and shipped? What conditions was it sitting in at the far end? Unfortunately it can't simply be assumed that all precautions were taken to ensure accuracy.

I was concerned because she was letharic, comparing that to my horned frog is an understatement.

It's a cresuscular ambush predator that spends a lot of time sitting in one spot when not actively feeding or breeding. How active and in what way did you expect it to be?

You are relying on my pictures as proof that she was a "healthy" frog but don't bother too look very closely do you.

I know that wasn't directed at me but... I couched my statements regarding the photos with the specific disclaimer that they will never be a substitute for firsthand observation. I also looked closely when they were first posted and again as I read this thread, saw the things you mentioned and checked the enlarged and marked photos Bobby posted. I still respectfully disagree that they show an unhealthy frog.

The frog has a very drowsy glimpse

Little anthropomorphism there... the "expression" of the frog can be easily explained, as they develop fat stores, used in the wild for seasonal aestivation and times when food is tougher to come by, those stores build up pretty visually on the head and neck. This results in the timpanic rolls and the blunter appearance to the head that is seen in adults over frogletts and juveniles. The eyes look fine, the timpanic roll is covering about one third of the timpanum, it's a healthy weight with a nice fat store without being obese.

the left forarm and wrist are reddish and swollen

Couple points on this one- first, in none of the photographs can we see the forearm in the same position, at the same angle. The appearance of one relative to the other cannot be judged accurately as a result. Depending on the position of the leg and the weight dispersal of the frog, the muscles, any fatty tissue and skin can take on different appearances. The "reddish" area on the wrist and around the toes is seen in many, many white's tree frogs, what you are seeing there is the blood vessels and tissue underlying skin that's not pigmented the way the dorsal surface is. Again the positioning can dramatically change the appearance, as a wrist bent in one direction can have a dramatically different coloration than one bent in the other.

Further, and this is just speculation on my part... if you sent a message to Ed worrying about the potential for injury as a result of a fall... and you then see a swollen and red foreleg... Why are you putting the blame on his doorstep?

the nose is reddish (could be a nose rub too)

The area around the nostrils is also thinner skin which will generally show those red or purplish undertones. It's not nose rub. Amphibian skin is thin and delicate to begin with, a whites with nose rub will display clear breaks in the skin and the exposed underlying tissue.

and the skin
is reddish on some parts.

If the color balance of your camera is accurate, it's not any more reddish in any spots where it's unusual or concerning to see than it is on any other healthy frog.

The frog is very weak, check how he sits in the water bowl, he
can hardly support his body.

I suspect you do not have a lot of experience witnessing firsthand the behavior or bosy positioning of these frogs. The head is erect in all the photos on the rock, the forearms and chin are resting on the side of the water bowl in the photos there. None show unusual positioning, none show particular "weakness"

His eyes are "sunken in" a bit.

Nope.

The sticky toe pads look bloodshot, especially on the hands.

Nope. Comments like this are the reason that your knowledge and experience are being questioned. If you are not experienced enough to know what color the feet are with the toes spread, your judgement of proper husbandry and the other conditions is suspect.

And as Kelly stated, the frog never tried to eat something!
Everybody who keeps or kept White's knows how voracious they are.

And how voracious they aren't the day they come out of a shipping box, get overhandled, soaked with water with unknown chemical properties, in an unknown temperature in a brightly lit environment.

[quoteThose can be all signs of the Chytrid Fungus and at least EVERYBODY should
recognize and see that the frog WASN'T HEALTHY as he was alive!!![/quote]

It appears you're taking your subjective interpretation (and misinterpretation) of some visual signs as being proof of the conclusion you desire to draw to the exclusion of a multitude of other possibilities.



In some respects amphibians can be extremely delicate animals and many factors that can contribute negatively to the health of a captive amphibian can result in death in a very very short time frame. Much of what people who are disagreeing with you are noting is that you have not shown anything conclusive to indicate specific fault on Ed's part.

I am genuinely sorry that your frog passed, whites are awesome little animals, I keep a pile of them myself and they have a ton of appeal as pets. While there are a lot of questions here and now about this specific animal, and some doubt has been raised about your experience and knowledge of the species and their husbandry requirements, I don't think you should write the species off entirely. Similarly, while some questions have been raised about the conditions this animal was exposed to, many of those unknowns or conditions about which there is doubt could be cleared up... possibly in the dicsussion forums though, as it would be taking this thread widely off topic.

 

[K412]

Ed, there really is no need to provoke or insult the members of this forum. They take the time to wade through BS and help people. That is admirable in my opinion.
I am more than grateful to Lars K of the fatfrog forum. He was very empathetic to my situation and offered assistance when I needed it while you were dodging me. I did not bring up his name until he posted on fatfrogs when he knew that Ed was provoking and insulting me. Lars K is one of the many resident experts on frogs and his knowledge is fascinating. I had contacted him many times via pm about caring for these frogs beginning in June and after I sent the pm that she died he began pointing things out to me and encouraged me to do the right thing for other members of fatfrogs, mostly impressionable minors who seem to worship his photography skills. I did not wish to break his confidence and post his name.
Ed, it is me that you are angry with because I stood up for myself. Keep it directed at me please. I have been under fire here and conducted myself in a respectful manner.
The questions that they ask are valid and deserve a response. I have done the best to respond to any and all questions about this issue.
If you want to continue to insult me by calling me a frog killer to goad me into feeling guilty again it won't happen. You knew that I was a novice but no newb. As a novice I did not notice what Lars did. And more importantly if I was such a newb why would you send me a frog that you cherished and wanted to keep? Why would you compliment me on the enclosure as opposed to saying "Hey, the humidity may be too high in there."
Again, I would like to have some answers to questions that I asked before.
You had an Ad on kingsnake for these frogs and removed it, why?
If she was the last one of that group you must have known that she was female, did you switch out the male that I was told I would receive on 8/13/08?
You also posted candid shots of these frogs on 8/15/08. Were those frogs from a different batch or is the entire group contaminated?
Have you taken any of these frogs to the Vet yourself and if so are you willing to post results?
I have no scanner but will be happy to take pictures of the report unless anyone would like me to mail a hard copy to them. Just pm me your address and I will send it same day.
I wish to thank all of the contributors on this thread for what you do.
I also want to thank Marcus q for taking the time to help get to the bottom of this and especially to Lars for all of your helpful advice from the very beginning.
I sincerely hope that Ed will come forward and answer these questions one by one.
If it helps to prevent this from happening to one more frog or person it is worth every penny.
Ed, you know how soft I am about animals. You know that I am deeply affected by what I do for a living and to accuse me of such a heinous thing as not doing my homework when I posted your responses to my questions beginning in June when you offered me this frog(although a male) you know that I did my homework or I would never have apologized for asking so many questions. You know how thorough I am about my husbandry and the lengths that I go to in order to make sure that I do the best I can for all of my animals. You know as well as other fatfrogs members how deeply I care about my pets and to insult my emotions is a very petty thing to do.
I respectfully request that you answer the above questions posted by myself and the other members of this forum.

 

[Seamus Haley]

These animals, frogs, die at the "drop of a hat for no apparent reason".

I'm going to rephrase that... Not for Ed's benefit, but for yours, because interpreted with that wording, it's going to put people off frogs.

Amphibians are animals that have some interesting biological adaptations that make them particularly susceptible to certain conditions and diseases that other animals show a stronger resistance to.

They have "open" skin that assists in respiration and hydration, taking in gases and liquids from the surrounding environment. This makes them particularly sensitive to many forms of chemical poisoning and some biological toxins, as things they are exposed to get pretty directly into the blood stream. One of the things they are reliant on as an aspect of resistance to those factors (as well as to stay hydrated) is the waxy cuticle that you'll see on less aquatic species, or the "slime coating" on the highly aquatic ones. These provide bacterial and fungal resistance... and unfortunately can be worn away or damaged. The oils produced by our skin, for example, tends to eat through that protection very quickly and can leave the animal predisposed towards various infections.

They also tend to be, as a generalization but not an absolute, fairly specifically evolved towards their local environmental conditions. Temperature and humidity are the big two that herpers tend to look at because they're the ones we most often manipulate for reptiles... but those environmental conditions also cover things like UVB intensity and exposure, the day/night cycle, the pH, GH and KH of rainwater and groundwater (along with the concentration of other things, some trace minerals can be pretty toxic... copper being an easy example), barometric pressure and so on. Whites are on the less picky side than many other frogs and tree frogs but even so, they're far more likely to react to changes in those conditions outside of the ideal than a reptile.

The temperature, humidity and moisture requirements automatically mean that the ideal environment for an amphibian is also often an ideal environment for bacteria and fungus.

These sensitivities, combined with the smallish overall mass (the biggest frogs overlap smaller snake species obviously, but that's about as far as it goes) often mean that there simply isn't the same time frame from the introduction of a negative factor till the eventual and terminal conclusion to notice, identify and address an issue. Those chemical sensitivities make most medication options unsuitable and some of the old herper standbys (heat it up) for home remedies are also just as certain to kill the frog as they are any biological problem.

When something goes wrong, they can succumb quickly. When everything goes right, in the hands of someone adept at manipulating those environmental factors with the knowledge of the species going into it- they're fine.

 

[hhmoore]

I haven't dealt with frogs in 10 years (with the exception of a small group I had about 3 yrs ago, which my ex baked after 7 months by turning off the AC on the hottest day of the year - but that has no bearing here). I did notice the spot on the one foreleg (I saw the color of the face, and was unconcerned), but it didn't change my initial impression of the situation. Thank you, Seamus for confirming/clarifying things.

I was unfamiliar with Chytrid fungi, and the problems it has been causing, until I saw it hear and started reading.
Now, I understand the concern - but I find it interesting that there is so much chatter about it & the possibility that this frog could have been infected....yet the necropsy shows no mention of spores. Even if the specific identity isn't known, fungal spores are pretty easily spotted microscopically....and everything I read today seemed to indicate that Chytrid infections were pretty easily diagnosed from samples.
That's out of my league - I'm not going to claim any sort of advanced knowledge after about an hours reading - but this animal was inspected post-mortem by two vets.

Since the start of this thread, I've been curious about why a frog shipped during the summer, and soaked at room temp upon arrival, needed to be put on a ledge in proximity to a lightbulb in order to warm it up......

 

[hhmoore]

ouch - make that "saw it here"

 

[Seamus Haley]

I did notice the spot on the one foreleg (I saw the color of the face, and was unconcerned), but it didn't change my initial impression of the situation. Thank you, Seamus for confirming/clarifying things.

Yeah well... all a bit speculative on everyone's part when looking at those photographs. I've seen similar coloration and know of reasons for it in perfectly healthy frogs, so I explained that I had and what those reasons were. I believe you probably did the same.

I've also seen animals that didn't have the same coloration, where the nose (for example) was more vibrantly pigmented. I suspect that's what caused Bobby to take a look and point to it and explain that it might be off. And he's not wrong for doing so either.

A photograph is just never as good as firsthand observation. Can't take a photograph and change the angle or zoom in without pixelization or check it under different lighting to see if anything becomes more apparant.

 

[AF Exotics]

Great post Seamus.Having seen up close and personal some of these virulent die-offs,it really can be quite puzzling.There are times absolutely no fault could be found in the husbandry,yet this can happen.I totally agree people should not be put off,but dig deeper to find out why.

I know now that there is a chasm of ignorance still yet to be bridged because there are active populations of these pathogens occurring in the wild and also being caused inadvertently from continued shotgun treatments of antibiotics causing mutations of these nasties in some of these farming operations overseas.Lots to be learned.Whether he knew it or not,Ed probably would've saved himself a ll this by ad ressing her concerns privately and discreetly.She tried on two different forums to contact him and she was ignored,and that was confirmed by him in this thread.

It is that attitude of "they will just go away" that seems to have pushed Kelly to this confrontation.Methinks he would've made one more good faith gesture and then washed his hands of it.Calling her a "Frog Killer" wasn't the way to go.

 

[K412]

Mr. Haley,
I am more than happy to respond to any and all questions that you have of me.
I would like to begin by saying that the quotes used to discredit me here were not made by me. They were made by Lars K of fatfrogs. He is probably the most experienced and knowledgable person that I have ever met in reference to frogs in general. He is a highly respected individual based on his level of expertise and the two of you have much in common. He is very respectful and is a person of great moral turpitude. Please see my thread above this one for more detail.
This is the thread that he used to indicate existing illness of the frog
http://fatfrogs.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=7028&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
Sir, I also never bumped her with the tongs or tried to force feed her. When she was behind the rockpile I ducked down where she couldn't see me and held a cricket up to where she could see it to see if there would be a response and there was not. I have previously stated that I have frogs and know that they are to be admired by eyes not hands and I did not handle her in excess. I know that they need time to settle in and I assumed that by hiding in the lower corner she was doing just that. I put her in the waterbowl and on the shelf. I did spill some of the water when I poured it into the bowl and this is the same water source and dechlorinator that I have maintained my horned frogs on for nearly a year now. I have a water filter since I drink tap water myself and it is changed by sears every 6 months. They have had no ill effects and are thriving. I will be happy to post pictures of them and their enclosures as proof if you would like me to.
The temperature was indicated on the first post. Mid 80's on the topside of the terrarium and mid 70's on the bottom. I also stated that the enclosure is in my bedroom. I live with my daughter and she has no interest in my animals. She is 16 and thinks that frogs are gross. The enclosure was covered on 3 sides and the shades in my room are always closed. I have 2 25 watt nightglo bulbs in that terrarium as a light source.
The frogs remains were sent on ice and she was in a formalin filled specimen jar. I have used this Vet many times in the past and have full confidence in her abilities or I would not have chosen her.
I am aware of the expectations of movement the first day, I only had her for one day.
As I have stated she was lethargic and I took that as getting acclimated to a new environment.
This thread shows where Lars interpreted the pictures when he zoomed them. I admit that I am a novice but not a newb. Lars is far more know ledgable than myself about the healthy appearance of these frogs. I did a great deal of research on how to maintain them properly beginning in June when I started asking Ed about their care and I went from there. Those responses are posted on this thread in their entirety.
As far as sustaining an injury due to a fall I did not see her fall. I asked if they could fall. The pictures were taken shortly after her arrival which was before I found her hiding in the back corner on the bottomof the tank when I assumed that she could have fallen because she never moved from that spot until I removed her remains.
Please let me know if I have not answered all of your questions.

 

[Ed Clark]

Ed, you did not answer the questions, let me make it a bit more easy for you. Does that look like a healthy animal?

Yes an absolutly gorgeous healthy CB Australian Whites tree frog.

 

[K412]

I haven't dealt with frogs in 10 years (with the exception of a small group I had about 3 yrs ago, which my ex baked after 7 months by turning off the AC on the hottest day of the year - but that has no bearing here). I did notice the spot on the one foreleg (I saw the color of the face, and was unconcerned), but it didn't change my initial impression of the situation. Thank you, Seamus for confirming/clarifying things.

I was unfamiliar with Chytrid fungi, and the problems it has been causing, until I saw it hear and started reading.
Now, I understand the concern - but I find it interesting that there is so much chatter about it & the possibility that this frog could have been infected....yet the necropsy shows no mention of spores. Even if the specific identity isn't known, fungal spores are pretty easily spotted microscopically....and everything I read today seemed to indicate that Chytrid infections were pretty easily diagnosed from samples.
That's out of my league - I'm not going to claim any sort of advanced knowledge after about an hours reading - but this animal was inspected post-mortem by two vets.

Since the start of this thread, I've been curious about why a frog shipped during the summer, and soaked at room temp upon arrival, needed to be put on a ledge in proximity to a lightbulb in order to warm it up......

In response to that question Sir I placed her on the shelf because she felt cool to the touch. I know that they need a heat source and the temperature was in the lower 80's on that shelf and the mid 80's on the topside of the tank. I have a digital temp gun with a laser pointer on it that gives very accurate readings. I also have the dials in the terrarrium but do not rely solely upon them.

 

[K412]

Since you are here now Ed could you please take a moment to answer my questions?
Do you disagree with Lars?

 

[Ed Clark]

I know now that there is a chasm of ignorance still yet to be bridged because there are active populations of these pathogens occurring in the wild and also being caused inadvertently from continued shotgun treatments of antibiotics causing mutations of these nasties in some of these farming operations overseas.

Exactly what are you talking about here?

What active populations of pathogens occurring in the wild being treated with antibiotics are being caused inadvertently?

 

[K412]

Not that I am at all surprised that you are refusing to answer my questions Ed.
I will ask again;
If that was the last one of that batch why did you tell me on the 13th that it was a male?
Did you give me a different frog than I was promised?
Do you disagree with Lars? Check the thread on fatfrogs if you want to.
Why did you remove your Ad on kingsnake the same day that I posted here?
Are you willing to take pictures of the enclosures of the exisitng whites that you have to prove they are healthy?
Have you taken any to the vet yourself and will you post thise results?

 

[AF Exotics]

Red Eyes and some other South American frogs to begin with.Mutations of some previously known strains of Chytrid and even known speciated bacteria have mutated when some frogs were treated with a "shotgun approach" of antibiotics,as explained in personal communication with Chris Rombrough(hope I spelled his name correctly).

This man has a body of work dedicated to this field and has been commissioned to do field work with Anurans specifically here on some U.S populations.Google his name Ed,and enjoy.Hopefully I spelled it right.Nice guy to talk to,full of good information and a passion for what he does.