Ed Clark,don't buy frogs from him!

[K412]

By hiding illness I mean that they aren't as obvious as in mammals.
Animals that are a prey species fair better to disguise illness that predatory animals.
Thank you for that post it was very informative.
I have a cranwell and an ornate. They are the only other frogs that I have owned and they are doing well.

Ed, I just wanted to ask why you took your Ads off of Kingsnake. The first one that you posted was on the 15th of August of this year and the second, if memory serves, was on the 22nd. The Ad on the 15th had the frogs size as 2 1/2 svl and the second had them at 1 1/2.

 

[crazyfroglady]

I'm very curious to see the results of the chytrid test considering he claims to treat all of his frogs. I'm chiming in on this forum becuase I got tired of reading that this was k412's fault.

To the person who keeps mentioning that the humidity is too high in her set up can quit. It's already been said that humidity will not kill an aussie white overnight.

To the person that said she was an inexperienced keeper should quit assuming just because she was asking questions that it was her fault. Care sheets are almost always wrong. For example: almost all of them say using sphagnum moss for just about every frog is ok.
I ask a million questions because I want to make sure I'm doing it right regardless of what the care sheets say.

To the people that said leasons are not clearly visible made their own point. They're not CLEARLY visible because you only saw the top side of the frog.

To the person who said that chytrid fungus does not kill right away apparently doesn't own a whites because that is clearly a Juvenile frog. This frog could have been harboring the fungus since it was a tadpole.

And last of all to ED! You sir are a Jerk plain and simple. Anytime someone tries to call you out on not breeding, sending sick animals, sending the wrong animal you ignore it, and ignore it, and ignore it some more. You leave people no choice but to call you out publicly. And then you blame it on them. I know of quite a few cases where you sent the wrong animal and still blamed it on the buyer. K4 beat me to the punch on the last aussie white he had thing. You posted several pics of aussie whites in that thread ED, so who's the liar? It's amazing to me how many people play the devils advocate here. The point is this. If you had taken care of this VIA PM on fatfrogs ED like k4 tried to do this thread would have never been started.

 

[Seamus Haley]

By hiding illness I mean that they aren't as obvious as in mammals.
Animals that are a prey species fair better to disguise illness that predatory animals.

It's sometimes easier to see behaviors related to illness in mammals because there's more common behavior there to sympathize with.

When it comes to the physical manifestation of symptoms though, the physiology and immune responses of amphibians are such that any illness which will display outward signs will do so in an obvious manner. Given the basic premise that there is anything which will be displayed upon visual inspection, amphibians will display it; sick amphibians are generally extremely easy to spot, not difficult.

Further, since all frogs and toads are strictly predatory as adults, your rationalization for that argument simply isn't accurate. With the rare exception of certain apex predators, the majority of carnivores (piscavores, insectivores, etceteravores) are both predator AND prey species in their natural environment.

I do not know who told you that amphibians will "hide" an illness but it's an inaccurate generalization that you should not spread any further.

 

[Seamus Haley]

that is clearly a Juvenile frog

Two-two and a half inches stvl with a belly full of eggs is not a juvenile frog. For a whites, it's a young adult.

Even if the length were not given as undisputed fact in the thread and the claim was not made about the eggs, the clear visual of the well defined timpanic roll is an indication that the higher caloric demands of a juvenile animal have ended.

 

[crazyfroglady]

I'm sorry atleast a juvenile. I never claimed to be an expert. How come you're not picking through ed's post correcting every inaccuarate statement he makes?

 

[Lucille]

QUOTE=jayefbe] Could the ulcerations and bacteria have occurred post-mortem? I mean, the frog was shipped to CA, so it's possible that improper shipping conditions led to an unreliable diagnosis..[/QUOTE]

I would like a frog expert to comment on this. The frog died. Then the frog was taken to a local vet. Then the frog remains were shipped to California. Is there a possibility that with all this transport, the frog's remains were not kept sufficiently chilled and bacteria invaded and multiplied?

 

[Ed Clark]

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From: k412
To: ed clark
Posted: 2 Aug 14, 2008 8:59 pm
Subject: FUCKING CRICKETS!!!!!!!!!!
So last night I put 3 in and 45 miinutes later got all 3 out. Tonight I put in 2 and am waiting patiently. How can I make sure he eats them? He is afraid of the tongs.
He sure isn't a pacman frog.

I have to find a way to keep those damn things oputside, jesus they stink!!!

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[deborahbroadus]

QUOTE=jayefbe] Could the ulcerations and bacteria have occurred post-mortem? I mean, the frog was shipped to CA, so it's possible that improper shipping conditions led to an unreliable diagnosis..

I would like a frog expert to comment on this. The frog died. Then the frog was taken to a local vet. Then the frog remains were shipped to California. Is there a possibility that with all this transport, the frog's remains were not kept sufficiently chilled and bacteria invaded and multiplied?[/QUOTE]

We do need a frog expert.

My problems with absolving Ed from blame lies in the fact that he's a known liar (sorry Ed). He doesn't have the best reputation (I would NEVER buy anything from him), and he has again and again shown his character when confronted with a dissatisfied customer.

While it's difficult at this stage to say that he is totally to blame, it's also difficult given all the factors that I have read

1. Death in a relatively short time
2. It is a female and not a male as he stated
3. The OP doesn't come across as being sly, her stories jib.
4. They have pointed out inconsistancies in Ed's stories.

to consider him totally blameless (never known a leopard to change its spots yet). While I agree that he can't be held responsible for any bills incurred on the animal, it would be wise not to prejudge the OP too early.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Usually, the ulcerations will be on the ventral side of an amphibian.

Randal

Not always though. If they are kept improperly, ( an inexperienced keeper) they can form on the top, and on the legs.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Not always though. If they are kept improperly, ( an inexperienced keeper) they can form on the top, and on the legs.

Regardless of the placement of the ulcerations, I am still having a problem with the timing of the death. You can be the worse keeper in the world, but unless you actually drop, throw or physically kill the animal, it should not die in such a short time. If it got sick in her care, there would still have to be a period of time for the animal to go from good, to bad to worse..JMHO.

UNLESS, it was already ill..and while Ed may not have known that it was ill......???

Honestly, I do not have enough experience with Frogs and I am not going to pretend and just post for the sake of having something to say..I just want to remind us that it takes time for an animal to die even if one is the worse keeper in the world.

Also, if it was physically killed there would have been some kind of notation in the paperwork (ie, broken legs...(something)). I guess, I am just not ready to write off the OP as a crazy frog killer.

 

[Junkyard]

I would like a frog expert to comment on this. The frog died. Then the frog was taken to a local vet. Then the frog remains were shipped to California. Is there a possibility that with all this transport, the frog's remains were not kept sufficiently chilled and bacteria invaded and multiplied?

We do need a frog expert.

A frog expert is not the one to answer the question, this is best suited for the vet that did the necropsy and the shipping. The bacteria in question, septicemia, is more blood bound, so it would show up everywhere in the body. It would not just show up in the frog after death, but help cause the death of the animal. Bacteria does not just die when cold, it will stop growing though, this animal apparently had a good amount in the body by the time it was tested, it does spread quickly through the body as the blood flows. It is hard to say if he bacteria did a good amount of growth during the period the frog sat in the tank dead until it was put in the fridge.

Septicemia could have been a precursor to another disease or infection, since it was easily found, the vet may have accepted it as the cause of death and not thoroughly checked for any other bacteria, disease, infection, etc. Which seems to be a common issue when one is not sure what else may have killed the animal, they pass off the signs seen the most abundant as the cause of death. With bacteria's growth rate, it could be masking something else.

Ed, if you have kept other frogs with the one sent to Kelly, it would be best to have them tested also. Bacteria can spread quickly between animals, especially in a moist environment.

My two cents...

 

[deborahbroadus]

A frog expert is not the one to answer the question, this is best suited for the vet that did the necropsy and the shipping. The bacteria in question, septicemia, is more blood bound, so it would show up everywhere in the body. It would not just show up in the frog after death, but help cause the death of the animal. Bacteria does not just die when cold, it will stop growing though, this animal apparently had a good amount in the body by the time it was tested, it does spread quickly through the body as the blood flows. It is hard to say if he bacteria did a good amount of growth during the period the frog sat in the tank dead until it was put in the fridge.

Septicemia could have been a precursor to another disease or infection, since it was easily found, the vet may have accepted it as the cause of death and not thoroughly checked for any other bacteria, disease, infection, etc. Which seems to be a common issue when one is not sure what else may have killed the animal, they pass off the signs seen the most abundant as the cause of death. With bacteria's growth rate, it could be masking something else.

Ed, if you have kept other frogs with the one sent to Kelly, it would be best to have them tested also. Bacteria can spread quickly between animals, especially in a moist environment.

My two cents...

I am sorry, that wasn't my quote. That was Lucille that posted. MY BAD on the quotation mark placements.

 

[spawn]

How do you know it was a female? You chopped it up and physically pulled the eggs out? Did the vet? I may be blind, so I did not see any mention of eggs in the vet report, just a bunch of toxic organs, which, when talking about dead amphibians, seems to be about as unprecedented as unrest in the middle east.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

How do you know it was a female? You chopped it up and physically pulled the eggs out? Did the vet? I may be blind, so I did not see any mention of eggs in the vet report, just a bunch of toxic organs, which, when talking about dead amphibians, seems to be about as unprecedented as unrest in the middle east.

On a related note...
Im not bothering with this thread too much, but I think the vet report should be scanned and posted. Not typed in.

 

[varnyard]

I have my doubts about this, I would even go so far as to say I doubt they are the same frog.

 

[hhmoore]

I don't know that anybody is labeling the OP as a crazy frog killer, but there are clearly some differences of opinion being posted....and it would seem that the difference is some people keep (or have kept) frogs, and some don't. Amphibians are different from reptiles, and are even more dependent on environmental conditions. They show illness much sooner, and don't linger. There is a reason that very few (if any) amphibian sellers go beyond a live arrival guarantee. As I mentioned before, none of the people I have dealt with in the past would even guarantee live arrival.

I also fail to see where Ed repeatedly stated and assured the OP it was a male (except that she kept saying that). The only mention I have seen was the time Ed commented on it calling & said it was a male. As Seamus indicated, that is often considered definite enough. I don't deal with frogs in any capacity any more, but l am not aware of definite means of sexing them (granted, in some species there is a degree of sexual dimorphism...if the frogs are mature enough). Further, I don't see any evidence that the sex of the frog made any difference...did anybody see it posted that she said she wanted a male? If she didn't ask for a specific sex, and there were no guarantees about the sex, wtf difference does it make whether it was a male or female?

I've seen the comments disputing whether this was the last one Ed had or not, and the "evidence" that he said he often had as many as 100 of them at a time, and that he posted more pics. I guess people don't accept that animals come and go all the time when somebody is in the business of buying and selling. It could well have been the last of that batch, and another batch came in a few days later. I'm not saying that is the case - obviously, I don't know....but what is the point of that line of conjecture?

Like Ed, or hate him...it doesn't really matter in this case. The frog arrived alive, as guaranteed...and it was outwardly healthy. Even if he chose to replace it, he would not be responsible for either the initial necropsy or the shipping for/& subsequent analysis. The OP is out of line with her request. Period.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Actually Ed, third post down you say that at times you have into the 100's of these frogs.
August 29, 2008 you posted 2 more pictures of different aussies in that thread.

"nice ed..... how many of these little guys do you have?


At times into the 100's."

AT Times. He has them into the 100's. Quit trying to change words to mean what you want them to mean. This MAY mean that ed gets these frogs in, often enough.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I don't know that anybody is labeling the OP as a crazy frog killer, but there are clearly some differences of opinion being posted....and it would seem that the difference is some people keep (or have kept) frogs, and some don't. Amphibians are different from reptiles, and are even more dependent on environmental conditions. They show illness much sooner, and don't linger. There is a reason that very few (if any) amphibian sellers go beyond a live arrival guarantee. As I mentioned before, none of the people I have dealt with in the past would even guarantee live arrival.

I also fail to see where Ed repeatedly stated and assured the OP it was a male (except that she kept saying that). The only mention I have seen was the time Ed commented on it calling & said it was a male. As Seamus indicated, that is often considered definite enough. I don't deal with frogs in any capacity any more, but l am not aware of definite means of sexing them (granted, in some species there is a degree of sexual dimorphism...if the frogs are mature enough). Further, I don't see any evidence that the sex of the frog made any difference...did anybody see it posted that she said she wanted a male? If she didn't ask for a specific sex, and there were no guarantees about the sex, wtf difference does it make whether it was a male or female?

I've seen the comments disputing whether this was the last one Ed had or not, and the "evidence" that he said he often had as many as 100 of them at a time, and that he posted more pics. I guess people don't accept that animals come and go all the time when somebody is in the business of buying and selling. It could well have been the last of that batch, and another batch came in a few days later. I'm not saying that is the case - obviously, I don't know....but what is the point of that line of conjecture?

Like Ed, or hate him...it doesn't really matter in this case. The frog arrived alive, as guaranteed...and it was outwardly healthy. Even if he chose to replace it, he would not be responsible for either the initial necropsy or the shipping for/& subsequent analysis. The OP is out of line with her request. Period.

Harald, it probably doesn't matter that the frog is a male or female; but to me it is indicative of an error.

I agree that Ed doesn't owe the initial necropsy or shipping or subsequent analysis. However, (and this is not knowing a thing about frogs) if I got one that died less than a week later, I would certainly believe that it was previously ill.

Does anyone know the relative time table of onset of any illness to death in frogs?

perhaps I am in the wrong business....I can get into the Frog business and guarantee only live arrival..(now to figure out how to keep them alive that long...ummmmm)


I am not saying he is guilty, but I am also not saying that he is not, in my mind, yet. I, for one, am withholding judgement.

 

[varnyard]

"nice ed..... how many of these little guys do you have?


At times into the 100's."

AT Times. He has them into the 100's. Quit trying to change words to mean what you want them to mean. This MAY mean that ed gets these frogs in, often enough

She has been caught a few times here being less than honest. It looks to me like she is trying to blow some smoke here to collect the cash.

In the pictures above I see a great looking Whites in the first photo with a little marking on his side. In the second picture I see a lighter looking Whites with no spot and much thinner legs.

Kelly looks to me like you might be trying to pull a fast one. However, either way, you claimed it was a great looking animal when you got him/her, and that was after the guarantee ended. Ed did exactly what he said and you got what you ordered, anything past that means nothing. Ed owes you nothing, and in the end you have tried to pull the wool over our eyes to gain revenue.

There is none here that is blind, and the BOI is the wrong place to try to play this game.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Harald, it probably doesn't matter that the frog is a male or female; but to me it is indicative of an error.

I disagree there. As you cannot tell with any real certainty that a Whites is male or female especialy at a younger age, or if its not breeding season. Males and females vocalize, Males do it more often... so i wouldnt question eds guess there.