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Bad Guy Evan Stahl - Sent Me Sick Pine Snakes

snakesareawesome said:
Regarding exotic vets, I think the main reason people do not use them have little to do with competency and a lot to do with being cheap. With sick animals, the vet visit is not cheap, the medicines are not cheap, necropsy here costs 65$ but the bloodwork, trach washes, etc can add up. However, if you want to further the advancement of reptile medicine, we need to do these things to explain what has happened.
Click to expand...

I lost a green tree python several years back. I was out of town for a funeral, and she appeared to have a respiratory infection when I got home. I took her to the ER, because I got home on a Sunday.

She had some wheezing, so the vet prescribed Baytril injections (they were out of ceftazidime, a preferred medication). She died the next day. I took her to my regular herp vet for a necropsy, and we decided to have individual histological exams done on internal organs, as well as cultures of respiratory fluids.

When everything was done, I spent over $700 for the necropsy. I only had it done because I had several high-end chondros in my collection, and I was worried about something contagious. I paid $3k for that particular snake, and wanted to know why she died. The results were indeterminate.

People have suggested that the OP should've had a necropsy done. That kind of expense just isn't feasible for most people. If a pre-existing condition were found, the buyer could reasonably expect to be reimbursed for the cost of the animal, but the necropsy expense is on them. Who can afford to spend hundreds, to only be reimbursed for a fraction of that cost?

Just some additional thoughts on the matter.

Kathy
 
Insomniac101 said:
I lost a green tree python several years back. I was out of town for a funeral, and she appeared to have a respiratory infection when I got home. I took her to the ER, because I got home on a Sunday.

She had some wheezing, so the vet prescribed Baytril injections (they were out of ceftazidime, a preferred medication). She died the next day. I took her to my regular herp vet for a necropsy, and we decided to have individual histological exams done on internal organs, as well as cultures of respiratory fluids.

When everything was done, I spent over $700 for the necropsy. I only had it done because I had several high-end chondros in my collection, and I was worried about something contagious. I paid $3k for that particular snake, and wanted to know why she died. The results were indeterminate.

People have suggested that the OP should've had a necropsy done. That kind of expense just isn't feasible for most people. If a pre-existing condition were found, the buyer could reasonably expect to be reimbursed for the cost of the animal, but the necropsy expense is on them. Who can afford to spend hundreds, to only be reimbursed for a fraction of that cost?

Just some additional thoughts on the matter.

Kathy
Click to expand...
I've had 2 necropsies done at 2 different times. The first snake died from something akin to rabies (same principle) ... samples were sent to a university in Florida, it was never determined exactly what virus it died from.

The other was undetermined causes, but likely fatty liver disease (rescued snake).

These were performed years ago, so I'm not sure on the cost now, but they were over $500 each.
 
Insomniac101 said:
When everything was done, I spent over $700 for the necropsy. I only had it done because I had several high-end chondros in my collection, and I was worried about something contagious. The results were indeterminate.

People have suggested that the OP should've had a necropsy done. That kind of expense just isn't feasible for most people. Who can afford to spend hundreds, to only be reimbursed for a fraction of that cost?
Click to expand...

I agree .... the last necropsy I had done was a surprised death of a high end rattlesnake and did it because I had others and was worried about something spreading through the collection. I think I spent close to $700 also and that was at least 12 years ago qnd resuklts were inconclusive. And this was done by a great herp vet , not someone who didn't know exoctics.

Spending $700. on a baby pinesnake would be ridiculous when you can replace it for about $100.00 . You aren't talking abouty the family dog where you'll do everything possible for it.

The OP messed up hesitating on using the flagyl and feeding too soon after the reguritation.

 
There are two different priced necropsy prices in most cases, there is a gross and then one that encompasses the gross but includes histopathology. In general it is the histopathology that bumps up the price of the necropsy as it requires taking samples, preparing them and having a veterinary pathologist read them for evidence (and this can be many slides from one animal). A gross necropsy is going to look for macrocauses of death, things like abscesses without a determination of species in the abscess, fatty liver, broken bones etc but a lot of vets send the animal out for a gross necropsy which can significantly increase the cost of the necropsy.

In general the price does not have to be along those lines as PCR can be done at a significantly reduced cost for a wide number of diseases ranging from inclusion body disease (IBD), to Cryptosporidium for about $18 a test (plus shipping of samples) by independent companies. See http://www.vetdna.com/test-type/reptiles for a list at one company.

Most PCR tests can be run on a cloacal, or oral swab as well as possibly on a fecal (contact the company for details on sampling) so there is a lot less of a reason to not quarantine and determine what is present in a collection before issues happen.

some comments

Ed
 
EdwardK said:
There are two different priced necropsy prices in most cases, there is a gross and then one that encompasses the gross but includes histopathology. In general it is the histopathology that bumps up the price of the necropsy as it requires taking samples, preparing them and having a veterinary pathologist read them for evidence (and this can be many slides from one animal). A gross necropsy is going to look for macrocauses of death, things like abscesses without a determination of species in the abscess, fatty liver, broken bones etc but a lot of vets send the animal out for a gross necropsy which can significantly increase the cost of the necropsy.

In general the price does not have to be along those lines as PCR can be done at a significantly reduced cost for a wide number of diseases ranging from inclusion body disease (IBD), to Cryptosporidium for about $18 a test (plus shipping of samples) by independent companies. See http://www.vetdna.com/test-type/reptiles for a list at one company.

Most PCR tests can be run on a cloacal, or oral swab as well as possibly on a fecal (contact the company for details on sampling) so there is a lot less of a reason to not quarantine and determine what is present in a collection before issues happen.
Click to expand...
That's a good point, as I had a boa that passed earlier this year. Her bloodwork had been off slightly for a while. The vet found tumors/cancer in her stomach, liver, and kidneys so we didn't worry about PCR tests so the cost was nominal. I wanted to ensure she had nothing contagious as she was in a stack of enclosures in my reptile room with other boas and retics, plus hatchling ball pythons for sale.

Also, unless I had necro results indicating that the snake was sick and likely had been for some time, I would not start a BOI thread stating that the person who had recently sold it to me sent me a sick animal.
 
bcr229 said:
Also, unless I had necro results indicating that the snake was sick and likely had been for some time, I would not start a BOI thread stating that the person who had recently sold it to me sent me a sick animal.
Click to expand...

My point exactly. The animals didn't show signs of illness until a month in. While the problem could have been on Mr. Stahl's end, there's no evidence. Combine that with the re-feeding directly after a regurge and there's vast room for doubt.
 
Don’t buy from evan

My experience with Evan was years ago and I am glad I didn’t buy from him. He was a jerk and arrogant. I don’t have the emails we exchanged as it was years ago but this guy had terrible customer service. I won’t buy from him for that reason alone.
 
You never purchased an animal from me but still want to badmouth me and tell people not to buy from me? You never bought anything from me but my customer service was bad? You offer no evidence or proof of course. Doesn't this violate the rules of this board? Just stupid and petty.
 
Correct I didn’t buy from you because you where an arrogant jerk to me. Plenty off other people that didn’t treat me like you did. I thought my experience with you should be shared because I was a potential customer until you were a jerk. Wish I could find the emails to show how much of a jerk you were. So get but hurt Evan. I DONT CARE.
 
The other female I purchased from Evan has passed away as well.

Even after the treatment with Flagyl she continued to lose weight to the point that her skin was wrinkled. She was still eating extra small pinkies dipped in water to make sure she had fluid intake and did not regurge again.

I stand by my statement that these snakes had to be sick when I received them. There is nowhere here that they could have contracted this illness as they never came in contact with the rest of my collection and their housing/temps were perfect and the exact same conditions in which the rest of my collection thrives.

I can also concur that Evans attitude towards his customers is lacking to say the least.
 
cbaker81 said:
I stand by my statement that these snakes had to be sick when I received them. There is nowhere here that they could have contracted this illness as they never came in contact with the rest of my collection and their housing/temps were perfect and the exact same conditions in which the rest of my collection thrives.
Click to expand...

The thing is, all of the above is simply your opinion, with no proof, that all was perfect on your end. But we already know of some imperfections in your husbandry practices, that you refed a regurging animal too soon, that you did not take the Flagyl advice given to you until many weeks later.


Evan's bedside manner may in fact rub some people the wrong way and I am not defending it. But it is not relevant as proof, here.
 
cbaker81 said:
The other female I purchased from Evan has passed away as well.

I stand by my statement that these snakes had to be sick when I received them.
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear this, Chris. As I stated previously, I would guess that there was something going on, without symptoms, and shipping stress weakened their immune systems.

Kathy
 
Your opinion is not fact, without a necropsy, you cannot prove it was something the snake had before you received them.

It would appear to some that the snakes were I'll when you got them, as both have died. The time you had them before an issue arose is also problematic for you.

To some, it would appear that your husbandry was off and something you did or didn't do resulted in their demise, as Evan stated the other clutch mates are all fine.

It's unfortunate that both snakes passed, but without a necropsy (which could be inconclusive) there is no actual proof that they were ill before you received them.
 
Insomniac101 said:
Sorry to hear this, Chris. As I stated previously, I would guess that there was something going on, without symptoms, and shipping stress weakened their immune systems.
Click to expand...

This is the way I see it too .... Chris just hesitated too long before treating. A lesson learned the hard way. Even if he wanted to take some advice here , quite a few were giving him the wrong advice as they didn't even know flagyl was used for reguring and told him not to use it. 99% of the time , this is the drug of choice for regurging. But the does has to be accurate without guessing at lt.

As pointed out before, stess can set off an illness ( shipping in this case ) and you have to always be prepared for it. ... which is why you have a quarentine period where you closely watch new arrivals. Adult snakes can stand a longer time before deciding to do anything as far medication goes but you don't have that extra time to deside with young herps - they will waste away too quickly.

 
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