Fla Fish And Wildlife

[DragonCharm]

An idea for the next time, stay away from straight consignment. "Sell" the animals you want sold on consignment by the vendor you work for. Even if no money changes hands at least generate a receipt. Then after the show if the animal doesn't sell "buy" it back. At that point they "own" it and can sell it there with no hassles, plus they that needed receipt.

 

[DragonCharm]

Not to mention if they "sell" it back to you you'll have a receipt for that animal if you take it yourself to Daytona next year.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Hopefully, this

business about "receipts and breeding records" goes to court. This should not be the pivital force for incarcerating an out of state vendor.

What if the F/W are not satisfied with the breeding records or receipts, what if they attempt to confiscate the animals a violation of the permit agreement, what if they close the booth alltogether!

As farfetched as the above senerio may seem, its an avenue , that they may take , and allow the courts to decide the fate of the vendor. I seriously consider what safe guards are going to be put into place when attending a show of this magnitude with the possibility of spending more time in the state of Fla. as their guest rather than the hotel!!!!

 

[Mickey_TLK]

This is coming to a show near you.

Dont think for one instance it stops here, we all know its started long ago. They are turning the heat up and watching us broil.

Here in Nebraska it seems like every week we have a change in the laws regarding our rights to keep reptiles. Currently we have a 8 ft snake law and a 5 ft lizard law in the city. We also have a permit system.

If you sell reptiles, from your home, from a shop, or online you are expected to have a 150$ city pet shop liscence. Well once you get the city liscence the state wants a 150$ state liscence as well. Both of theese give them the right to "inspect" your "facility" at their will. Think about this, if your breeding say a pair of panther chameleons in your basement on the side, you need to pay 300$ in permits PLUS give up your right to unlawfull search and seizure.

Now imagine if you move say a month after you get one of the permits, well YOU NEED ALL NEW PERMITS. I will have given the state 600$ in permits this year to sell reptiles in the state of Nebraska.

They tried to push this onto our local little dinky show as well. Trying to read the law as to say that out of state vendors would need a pet shop liscence (150$ plus dont let the state find out...LOL) for a 1 day show twice a year.

But you know whats saddest of all. The people pushing them to push us are within us. The calls and complaints on the shows 90% of the time are the cook from peta, hell even some of the rational enforcement officials consider them idions, its the pet shops.

Every complaint filled on the local show have been from Pet shops trying to "protect" their turf. What a bunch of idots we can be, inviting the wolves into the hen house.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

sorry.....90% of the complaints AREN'T from the cooks at Peta.......

 

[KNOBTAIL]

hey Mickey, nice to have met you at Daytona,

You are correct, this is about revenue. At least in the state of Fla. Record keeping is becoming more of a way of life for herpers here. Especially if your a retail store. I dont have a problem with providing information about maintaining receipts, or other information that is necessary if you are a resident of the state and that are the requirements to obtain a permit. I understand that F/W do have the right to examine these records to insure that if the purchase was made within the state of Fl. that it be done between permit holder to permit holder. (That is where the revenue comes into play) Everybody gets a piece of the pie!

My serious concern are for the out of state vendors who have to abide for a weekend rollercoaster with Fla officials who have already received payment, and have added new dimensions to their interpetation of what should be expected from these vendors. Hopefully if we can provide the funds for permits, we should be able to provide the funds to take these people to court, and let them know that we will not become lambs or accept being beaten up everytime a show appears and put not only our animals in jeapordy but ourselves as well.

 

[WebSlave]

The whole concept of "permits" is about as perfect of an example of the saying The road to hell is paved with good intentions as I could ever imagine. Nearly ALL permitting systems start out easy to get, easy to renew, cheap, with reasonable constraints, and considered not worth fighting for those people who resist the idea. THAT is simply the foot in the door. Once the government is granted the power to issue permits for something you want to do, they then have the power to change them at will, leaning more and more heavily towards those changes that will likely cause them to be able to DENY you the permission to engage in that activity.

And yes, many permit systems are instigated, supported, and actively encouraged by the people already engaging in the activity being permitted, because quite simply, many of those people wish to make the bar higher for those people trying to become their competition. Then it becomes a monster that turns on them.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

The last show I attended out here the F&W did not show their faces at all. Shows here in So California are not as common and problems are very rare, though this can easily change in a day. It seems that the Florida F/W had expected their presence was needed.

Just because you don't see them, don't be led into a false sense a security, they are there!!!
And with the latest news of the "ex LA-PD officer" dumping the alligator into the local park lake, leading to 2 arrests, they will be ever present in California and at NARBC in force! Under cover!!

 

[LotsaPetsGarfHt]

not true

While some pet shops might complain about the shows, I do them. It has brought so many new customers to my shop I can't lose. Not only that but where else can I find as large a variety of CB animals to cherry pick from....and NO SHIPPING CHARGES!

 

[Jungle Gems]

As long as it isn't Florida...

No worries there, Jim, as I will not be darkening Florida's doorways except upon sparse visitation. I'll be moving to Georgia from whence I came. The move will serve as the necessary catalyst for further development of our research, conservation, educational and rescue aspect of our business.

Sure, Georgia is not without its flaws, but given the alternative...

 

[DragonCharm]

Let's say it is all about money and nothing else. What about the real money (thousands per vendor) being spent in a weekend at a show? They are booking hotels, buying food and drinks (lots of drinks I'm sure), gasoline, snacks, road maps, renting cars, etc. All of which is revenue for local taxed businesses and all being hit by sales tax. Lest we forget that the pet shops that are selling at the shows are making money that keeps them in business so they can continue being taxed. Florida, don't F up a good thing.......us reptile folks are coming in by the thousands and most of us have fat wallets and like to spend lots of money at the shows.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

John

I agree 100% that as a shop owner its GREAT to have the shows.

We not only vend at them, but we actively help the society promote our local show. We are not "sponors" in any way, but we allow for all the flyers that can be passed out, to be passed out from our shop.

I love useing the shows as a way to supply the shop in person and save on shipping, meet new suppliers, and have a good time with old friends.

That aside, Im just one shop. Im aware of 2 shops in town that have had the humaine society through to "inspect" for "illegal" animals at the show. One of theese very shops also called the top of the society on the herp show itself, trying to get the whole thing shut down.

Im sure this is common all over the country, but thats just my OPINION (always preface theese days).

I honestly have mixed feelings on the whole permit systems. If they were designed to help the societies do their jobs (within reason) I would be ok with them. However when the fees become more and more expensive, and more and more restrictive at the same time it becomes more difficult to deal with.

If they wanted to do all this to "help the greater good" they would sell the permits right at the show. However they hope to use theese laws to help shut down the industry as a whole. What are the chances of someone at a dog show from out of state getting handcuffed for no vet certificate at a show? While its not quite the same thing, I dont feel is a difficult parallel to make. Were obviously a marked industry.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

some final thoughts,

the permits for out of state as well as instate for reptiles and amphibians provide a greater exposure to allow the authorities to see what is out their, who is selling them, and how the movement of animals can be monitored.

Eventually, not only will permits require "breeding information and receipts" but more ominously, health certificates . Not only to produce for every animals brought by a vendor to a show, but for traveling as well.

Can you imagine what chaos would have occurred at the Daytona show if the turtle vendors had to have a certificate of health in order to sell turtles or tortoises under 4". Can you further imagine what would happen if they were seized by health authorities with the blessing of F/W standing by their side waiting for you to prove that these item for sale are Salmonella free.

The above example is no so far fetched as a possiblity for the future of our industry. For all I know it may even be happening in smaller unnoticed shows.

The current Pet Industry associations do not seem to provide the necessary concerns on a local level where shows are involved, and as the noose tightens, it will only suck the life out of these events. This industry will lead an underground existence, if it has not done so already.

 

[gila7150]

Sure, Georgia is not without its flaws, but given the alternative...

No disrespect to GA....it's a beautiful state and I'd live there in a second BUT it has more f*#cked up reptile laws than any other state in the country in my opinion.
You can own a Eastern Diamondback for your first pet snake with no permit whatsoever but go catch a cornsnake or a eastern king (both of which are dirt common) and your in big trouble.

....and since GA only recognizes the species level, I don't think you can keep any kings or milks (since eastern kings fall under getula and scarlet kings fall under triangulum).....and that's not even counting all the Pantherophis you can't own.

We're all getting excited about the events from last weekend and I agree they were out of line but when it comes down to it, FL has some of the more reasonable reptile laws including a venomous permitting system that requires some level of competancy (which is more than can be said about most states.)

 

[Dennis1]

Just because you don't see them, don't be led into a false sense a security, they are there!!!
And with the latest news of the "ex LA-PD officer" dumping the alligator into the local park lake, leading to 2 arrests, they will be ever present in California and at NARBC in force! Under cover!!

And all the while they take land from their own native Fauna
Salamanders I think are the latest

 

[Jungle Gems]

No disrespect to GA....it's a beautiful state and I'd live there in a second BUT it has more f*#cked up reptile laws than any other state in the country in my opinion.

I am not at all in opposition to what you have stated here. As such, I would also like to clarify that Georgia would be one of the last states I would consider retreating to if I planned to breed species indigenous to the state of GA while maintaining the status of a "private individual" or business for that matter (although I find it simply amazing that I would be legally allowed to kill as many indigenous species as my little heart desired without legal ramification). Fortunately for us, we are not only breeders but conservationists in the education and research field as well (and once back in GA will be licensed as such) and work with many species not even native to the US (not limited to reptiles but also mammals, birds, etc.). I firmly believe, though, that if we were private breeders in the business of producing corn and king morphs regularly, for example, Georgia would be the last place on earth I'd want to go.

Right now, residing in Colorado while attempting to facilitate a rescue program is more precocious than the endless paperwork we will have to endure once we begin our establishment in Georgia. As an FYI, Colorado is one of only a few states that fully and completely ban the ownership and sale of non-human primates. Go figure. The way I view GA is that yes, they require permits for practically *everything*, but then again you can acquire permits for practically *everything*. We are swinging in the direction of refuge and rehabilitation anyway, why not make it official under law?

 

[Junkyard]

Just because you don't see them, don't be led into a false sense a security, they are there!!!
And with the latest news of the "ex LA-PD officer" dumping the alligator into the local park lake, leading to 2 arrests, they will be ever present in California and at NARBC in force! Under cover!!

Living here the last thing I would ever do is believe they are not around at the shows. They just did not show their badges, it would not surprise me if they did work undercover. Undercover is not uncommon here, but they prefer to stay in the open so everyone knows they are being watched. Just as uniformed officers are now in our schools. We need to be on our toes, coming out of state selling an indigenous reptile to California is a big offense. We need to be careful to follow the laws, there is no excuse for selling those turtles.

If I do not see any F/W or police at the NARBC next month I would be surprised, especially since they are having a party Saturday night with alcohol served. Knowing this they will be on their guard, worse, since this alligator incident they will be reading up on the states laws. So any vendors coming here, be careful. When one problems occurs they will be on the look out and have a refreshers course before the event.

News travels fast, so I am sure the F/W are well aware of any arrests and fines in Florida and they will be willing to do the same here. Maybe not as bad, but then again, maybe a little worse.

 

[brucestephenson]

I do have to say that the FLA FWC has been extremely helpful in fighting county bans in recent years. I think that it was very poor judgement by the supervisor to arrest anyone at the expo for the permit thing. A ticket is enough.

For those so inclined, my favorite quote by an anti-regulation person (I do not think it was a reptile person, but some completely different business industry person):

"The government wants to be your partner in business."

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Can you further imagine what would happen if they were seized by health authorities with the blessing of F/W standing by their side waiting for you to prove that these item for sale are Salmonella free.

I wonder why there is such a fuss raised over salmonella in reptiles when it's raw chicken and eggs that account for nearly all the salmonella cases in humans? The CDC website can't even give true numbers of people who get it from reptiles, it's all speculation and estimates i.e. guessing.

I get so sick of hearing the whole "you will get salmonella from simply touching a reptile" that it makes me want to

There are the medical doctors who give out false information to people, telling them they WILL contract salmonella if they simply touch a reptile.

I spoke to two different women who were pregnant. One had a corn snake and the other had a ball python. Their OB/GYN (same one) said to get rid of the snake because if you handle a snake while pregnant the UNBORN baby will contract salmonella while still in the womb and as soon as the baby is born it will die. Now that's a load of crap.

I explained to the women that the only way to get salmonella is by eating feces neither one would believe me. Each one told me they believed their OB/GYN because he has a degree. Yeah a degree in idiocy. BTW he's terrified of snakes. I used to work at the clinic where he practices and I know him pretty well.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Karen,

As you very well say there are far more cases of salmonella due to food intoxication (eggs, raw hamburguers, etc.) than as a result of contact with reptiles. Salmonella is a common inhabitant of the intestine. The problem is that when the water of the turtles is not clean often it becomes a perfect culture media for the bacteria. If a young child handles the turtle (or even puts it in his mouth, thus the regulation on minimum size) it can ingest the bateria. One of the worst reptile-related outbreaks of Salmonella occurred a few years ago with a group of school kids that visited a Komodo dragon exhibit at a Zoo. Needless to say they did not pet the Komodos, but they all laid their hands on the bars of the enclosure as they lean to watch.

Regards.