Florida Fish and Wildlife now Monitoring the BOI?

[dwedeking]

Arrggh!!!

The last post was by me not my wife.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

I dont understand the hidden receipts

either! If you are that concerned, put them into a file on you PC. I doubt anyone would give you an illegal receipt for animals that are illegal!

Recipts are just proof of payment. They may also have tax values and insurance values, and of course who the seller was, but beyond that, if you are paranoid about it, keep photocopies for anyone who has the authority to take them, and tell them the originals are with your attorney.

I sometimes think that F&W have run their course in espionage tactics, but they never cease to amaze me. Its just that as they get smarter so do the bad people of this industry. I just wish that they would exercise better judgement when dealing with people, but they dont, and they have the mindset that everyone in this business has something to hide.

 

[Mustangrde1]

If your keeping , breeding ,selling , importing , exporting the animals legally you should have no fear of the Law Enforcement Agents. I personally welcome inspections on my collection and feel strongly that they should be inspecting more. First and foremost is their responcibility to insure the proper humain treatment of animals.
If officers were inspecting more often perhaps we would have less rescues and less animals dieing in captivity do to inappropriate care.
You can scream Big Brother all day long! but if you have nothing to fear why not invite them.
Also think about this its a great sales tool. Keep a record of inspection and have the officer sign it if he would and send it to your customers to show them your facility is up to par with state standards. Just proves your one step above the other guy!
The times ive had to deal with FL F&W have been very pleasant with well knowledgeable officer. One in fact turned me on to a place I could find Indigos for photos. My hats off to these very hard working Officers. We scream and yell when someone gets busted for doing something we feal should not be a crime and we scream and yell about protecting wildlife and caught between the screams is the few officers that are out thier doing a very tough an unpopular job with the public. Next time you see one try saying thanks instead of yelling at them.

Scott Bice

 

[Ghi Reptiles]

Great post Scott! They really are just doing their jobs. I mean look what Ken had to do a few posts back....he was just doing what he is suppose to do, and that was in this case to control an out of control and unruly poster. USF&W agents are just doing their jobs in controling situations and keeping everyone in line. They are just like police officers when they catch you for speeding.....you get a ticket in most cases. They are also at the shows for the effect of themselves just being present. I think they are doing a great job!

 

[John Apple]

I call it a lack of trust and the receipt thing I think is a wise choice.
Many of the people here in Michigan had legal receipts for the animals they had . F& W said all the receipts were fake or invalid.
One guy busted with the babies of his legally obtained black rats snakes is facing 20 or so counts on those babies alone and his adults were taken also. they said the receipts were invalid.
That is why I keep copies at home and the original somewhere els , and I welcome anyone to my home to see, scrutinise or marvel at my collection of reptiles and spiders

 

[dwedeking]

If your keeping , breeding ,selling , importing , exporting the animals legally you should have no fear of the Law Enforcement Agents.

I don't fear them in the Getstapo persona they are sometimes protrayed but rather it's the incompetent field officer you have to deal with that doesn't know the species and/or laws. That's what got me on the receipt thing, the field officer can say all day long they are invalid or not allowed but your lawyer and the judge are the ones that really decide that factor (though you are the one that has to deal with inconvenience of having to go to those lengths).

Personally, I hope there are field officers monitoring this board and ones like them (not desk jockeys but the field officers). The education they receive on species details and the type of people that the majority on the boards are, will make for a better working relationship between the two parties.

 

[Blackwater Reptiles]

what about

a guy named Rick Blair, if I recall correctly, in Utah a couple of years ago who was treated like a drug kingpin while Fish and Game tore his place apart.... It seemed as though the police went WAAAAAY over the top on that "visit" searching for illegal Utah Milks if memory serves me correctly....

Yeah, it's a good thing that Law Enforcement uses this site as a "tool" to better catch crooks, but it seems to me there are plenty of thieves here that need to be prosecuted already, without having to arrest people who are honest on the pretense that they possess illegal animals...

I don't know if the guy in Utah EVER got all his animals back or if he EVER got his computer and other records back... all because he was accused of operating a business out of his home without permits, AFTER being told by the Clerk of that VERY court that he didn't need a permit or license....

This is one more good reason to fly the straight and narrow path, in case we didn't already have enough good reasons to begin with... nosey neighbors, anonymous tipsters and over-zealous officers of the law aside....

Tom Townsend

 

[KNOBTAIL]

THOMAS, am I to understand your

post that this person you mentioned was raided by F&W because he was operating a business out of his house? Or was it because of illegal animals?

Also, let me point out, that I personally would not allow F&W into my home unless they had a warrant . Furthermore, if you would feel intimidated by them at your front door, call the Police and allow them to enter with a uniformed officer. You are under no obligation to provide any information orally unless they request to see a copy of your permit.

Even their, there are limitations to what you have to provide. But I think the wisest method would be to call the Police and have them respond................they are great witnesses, and in a court of law, they would act as a impartial 3rd party.

I had a similar situation occur when I was in the police dept myself, and the call was made by someone who had two health officals in their home, and the individual wanted them out. I was able to see what had transpired within the text of the conversations, and if for nothing else, the individual felt somewhat relieved that at least someone else of authority was present. I only mention it, because any uniform can be intimidating, and whether you have done nothing wrong, is not the issue, but rather ", What are they doing in my home! "

 

[Blackwater Reptiles]

Jerry

I could have all my "facts" screwed up, because I'm running on memory... not a very advisable thing to do, I know, but...

Apparently they HAD a warrant, and entered under the pretense of this fellow operating a business out of his home, but as time wore on, it was clear (they searched the property for hours) that they were there looking for illegal Utah Milks, which if I also recall correctly, there were none.

I don't want to continue to comment on this, as I probably remember it wrong. The bottom line is that not ALL of these people have our best interest at heart.... I have NO issues with law enforcement personnel who are following the letter of the law, and I have a big problem with individuals and companies that break the law.... however, treating a guy who "failed" (after being advised he didn't need the permit/license by a clerk of the court) to have a business license, like he had kilos of cocaine in his house is a little far out in left field, in my humble opinion.

I will be pleased to exchange thoughts on this, and I will even do a little research to ensure I've got my facts straight (through email), but I would prefer not to post publicly on this topic again.

Tom Townsend

 

[KNOBTAIL]

It does sound a bit screwy. If a judge

signed an order allowing F&W to search the premises, even that has to be defined. But that really has nothing to do with a business licence which would be issued by the county he resides in. I am assuming you are referring to an occupational licence.

In either case, you dont have to provide anything to F&W if they provide a warrant. They understand quite well when you reach that point, they know their limitations. They must have had some evidence in order to support the affidavit in the first place.

In either case, if he was innocent, he has nothing to worry about. But also let me say that having a judge sign a warrant, to search a home is not the norm in the herp business unless their are some significant goings-on that we dont know about. Or maybe you did not get the whole picture.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Also, let me point out, that I personally would not allow F&W into my home unless they had a warrant . Furthermore, if you would feel intimidated by them at your front door, call the Police and allow them to enter with a uniformed officer. You are under no obligation to provide any information orally unless they request to see a copy of your permit.

Jerry,

In case you are unaware, in the State of Florida to sell any reptiles you must have the Class III License. If you sell your Geckos (does not matter if sold online, at a show, or out of state) it is required. Once you obtain your license it gives the Florida FWC officers the right to come inspect your facility (Whether it is your house or an actual location of business). The officers that come to inspect are fully uniformed, fully sworn members of Law Enforcement and have full arrest powers as do regular Law Enforcement. By now allowing them to inspect your facility you are causing yourself more trouble than good. The officers I deal with are great guys. The LT. for my area actually chats back and forth with me via e-mail from time to time as well as Chats with me at Shows he is inspecting at. As a matter of fact I had some state officials (Florida Dept. of Agriculture want to come inspect my place and I had never dealt with, nor hear of them. I placed a call to the LT. that I deal with from Florida FWC and he verified that these officials were whom they say they were. HE even went on to let me know that if I did not feel comfortable with letting them in my place that he would be happy to come to my place and escort them to inspect.
If a person has all the legal documentation, has all their ducks in a row they have nothing to worry about with F&W whether it be Florida, USF&W or other states
.

 

[Mustangrde1]

Just incase i read the last few post wrong . F&W Officers are Sworn Police Officers with the same if not more juuristictional rights as your Local Police or Sheriffs. If you they do come to your home requesting to search it you have the right to refuse if they do not have a warrant. If they do have a warrant be sure to read the warrant as so you understand exactly what they are looking for. In most cases if a warrant has been issued they will already have local police with them.

Now keep in mind when apply for permits you may be signing yourself in to the simple fact you are authorising a officer for inspection at anytime.

Regulations regarding the buying and selling of reptiles and amphibians:
Pursuant to 68A-6.0021, Florida Administrative Code, it shall be unlawful to buy, sell, or transfer any wildlife to or from an unpermitted entity within Florida. This means that you cannot sell animals
without a license (see above), and you cannot buy animals from a person who does not have a license. The recipient's name, address and the license number shall be entered into the transferor's records and
made available for inspection by Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission employees for a period of one year after the transfer. No person shall possess any wildlife requiring a permit for
personal use, or any wildlife for sale or exhibition, without documentation of the source and supplier of such wildlife.

This could apply in many states as well that if you obtained a permit you may have given permission for a search.I am not certain as to if they may enter without a warrant however they do have the right to demand certain records obviously. Best bet keep your life legal and your paperwork in order and just let them do their job. If it appears they are on a fishing expidition by all means ask for local law enforcement or call your attourney. From seeing a few F&W raids i know a lot of time went in to evidance gatherring long before they made the raid and they knew exactly what and where what they were looking for was. These guys usually build very good cases and take their time doing so.

Scott Bice

 

[Mustangrde1]

Rob you beat me to it darn you.lol

 

[KNOBTAIL]

ROB, i dont have a problem if F&W want to

inspect my premise, thats part of the licence agreement that I entered into . Insofar as them being a law enforcement officer, that may be a matter of dispute. They certainly cannot stop your car and ask you for your licence and registration. They cannot stop you for traffic violations, nor can they arrest you for a misdemeanor if they did not see it . Whereas a police officer can. Their are differences.

But thats not my gripe. If some official from F&W has a warrant to execute, more than likely a uniformed officer (police) would be called and present themselves as well. Thats fine with me.

My point was I really dont care what F&W do, just as long as they enforce the law legally themselves. Being in uniform does not give you carte blanche to invade homes without just cause.

A warrant is just cause, checking a facility or licence is also just cause, but to go searching around without probable cause is another matter.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Just to clarify one other point

F&W are law enforcement officers, but of a different capacity as compared to police officers. But they are law enforcement officers nevertheless. I did not want to confuse the issue.

 

[brucestephenson]

I personally feel that it is unconstitutional to be forced to sign a waiver of a constitutional right in order to get a permit. As a matter of fact, I am stating that I believe that Thomas Jefferson would be horrified and outraged that there is such a thing now in America.

 

[JJFOUTZ]

I agree, NOBODY of athority is getting into my house without a warrant. That is the way it was ment to be constitutionally.

 

[JJFOUTZ]

Without the constitution, we would have a tyrannical government. Next thing you know they are going to want you to hand over your firearms and leave you defenseless against criminals and the government, you would have no way to protect yourself or your family.
Sorry, I guess that is a touchy subject for me.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

hey FOLKS, all I can tell you from

my own experience being present whenever warrants were served by outside agencies. The police were always present. They basically kept order. These things are always very touchy situations.

But as someone pointed out, they do serve a positive function in keeping the bad guys out of the business, my only regret is that sometimes they seem to forget that the good guys are the majority. Enough said.

I guess the presence of them here in Fla. is much more prolific than it was when I was in NY. We never saw them except at airports. Now with shows and more flea market type mini shows, they are more visible.

 

[brucestephenson]

Actually, I believe that you are quite correct Jeff.