Genetic Snow X SHTCTB

[Sunset Gecko]

This is my second year breeeding and I hope to work my way up over a couples years by selectively breeding geckos from Urban and other bloodlines. I prefer to aviod these conflicts.

 

[Dan Lubinsky]

That's why I do this as a hobby. I like to see what comes out, keep the best and sell the rest. That's it. Since the Mack snows were offered at several shows. I had no idea there was a cartei to price fix. I read Alex's site again and it sounds like many other sales pitches i.e. Urban. My idea of "pay for themselves and make a profit" is buy for $1000, hatch 10 babies, sell some for 200 or 300, keep two. I've paid for the animal, made a profit and given some gecko lovers who couldn't afford a thousand some nice animals. I thought Alex would be glad to sell for 1250 and would be pissed if I backed out. I already told you Dan said he couldn't afford the animal and I'd offered to do a breeding loan even before delivery. Signing off.

 

[Hues1]

That's why I do this as a hobby. I like to see what comes out, keep the best and sell the rest. That's it. Since the Mack snows were offered at several shows. I had no idea there was a cartei to price fix. I read Alex's site again and it sounds like many other sales pitches i.e. Urban. My idea of "pay for themselves and make a profit" is buy for $1000, hatch 10 babies, sell some for 200 or 300, keep two. I've paid for the animal, made a profit and given some gecko lovers who couldn't afford a thousand some nice animals. I thought Alex would be glad to sell for 1250 and would be pissed if I backed out. I already told you Dan said he couldn't afford the animal and I'd offered to do a breeding loan even before delivery. Signing off.

Your "train of thought" above doesnt pertain to this particular situtation...wanna know why?

Its real simple, I told you from the get go that I had been turning people down for Mack snows because I wanted the Snows to go to capable breeders that would work with the project for the long haul, people that would be willing to go the whole 10 yards by producing viable snow/super snow offspring and to cross breed the genes into other lines, I was very explicit at the fact I was not looking for people who would mass produce or that were looking to breed a few animals and then sell the Snow...you were aware of this from the beginning. I also spent at great length to discuss with you my initial projections and opinions on where this morph would go and how I would not tamper with the pricing or undercut anyone I sold Macks too purely for the fact that I wanted every one who purchased one to succeed in this endeavor. YOU B.S.'d and told me things I wanted to hear like how you would set him up with RW albinos and how you were all so excited about the resulting snow x albino offspring and super snow x albino offspring...etc., what you have done now is completely not even remotely close to what you told me which makes you a big fat liar.

I have had the same discussions about the Macks with every single person I sold one too.....its only a sales pitch when the seller does it purely for "making the sale"....I have upheld my end of the bargain with every single person I sold a Mack too, I have provided any necessary help or support to anyone whom I sold a Mack too, I have guaranteed a certain set of standards and have been honest and upfront with every single person whom I've sold a Mack too.

now what were you saying about a sales pitch?! The only sales pitch I see being pitched is by the salesperson whom you placed a deposit on the z06 with and the sales pitch made by you and poe in trying to sell your side of the story.

 

[Monte]

Hey POSER...how many eggs do you have?! how many will survive? How many of your geckos probably have amoebas? Better yet...why dont you post a picture of your adult Mack...the cats out of the bag, nothing to hide...RIGHT? I'd bet that poor Mack snow is ultra thin and probably on its way out. Think of the waste you POSER.


Selective with my anger ?! POSER...you just dont get it, you're not a THREAT you're more of a tick or mite that has infested something and thats hard to get rid off...GOT IT. YOU'RE AN ANNOYANCE.


"Come and get it...come and get it...leopard geckos with FREE AMOEBAS! We guarantee every single animal we sell will include a FREE AMOEBA count of no less than 200...your complete UNSATISFACTION GUARANTEED ! TOP MORPHS FOR LESS BROUGHT TO YOU EXCLUSIVELY VIA DAN POE OF GROOVY GECKOS."

P.S. Big Boys dont need their mommys

OK - I think you made your point Alex. I think everybody's point has been made on both sides. Right now, everybody is starting to get damaged by this. Mr. Poe, with his words and husbandry and now Mr. Hues, you too are getting damaged by this taunting post. I'm looking at a lot of people with different eyes now.

I think it's time to call it quits. I don't think you can expect the people involved in this issue to say they are sorry - because from what I've witnessed - it's not a part of their make up. Right now - everybody is just trying to score smack points - shoot, I even see some of our youth getting into the bashing. This is not good form.

Lots of people screwed up. No sense making it worse. What's done is done.

Let's have some peace. You aren't going to change anything with more insults.

 

[Hues1]

OK - I think you made your point Alex. I think everybody's point has been made on both sides. Right now, everybody is starting to get damaged by this. Mr. Poe, with his words and husbandry and now Mr. Hues, you too are getting damaged by this taunting post. I'm looking at a lot of people with different eyes now.

I think it's time to call it quits. I don't think you can expect the people involved in this issue to say they are sorry - because from what I've witnessed - it's not a part of their make up. Right now - everybody is just trying to score smack points - shoot, I even see some of our youth getting into the bashing. This is not good form.

Lots of people screwed up. No sense making it worse. What's done is done.

Let's have some peace. You aren't going to change anything with more insult

Monte...you're probably 100% right, but this issue wouldnt be a issue if the POSER didnt make it one. What am I in the wrong for?! for declining a sale to a ass ?

Monte if you dont mind...from a outsiders perspective...what point have they made on their side?

 

[Monte]

Monte if you dont mind...from a outsiders perspective...what point have they made on their side?

That they have a right to do whatever they want with their animals once they are paid for.

The larger question is this - what do you want? A full admission of guilt - a mea culpa and falling on the sword? It isn't going to happen. I've been hanging around herp people for 6 years now - and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen people back down and admit their guilt.

I think it's like that favorite poster of mine called "The last act of Defiance". In the picture you see a rat, bloodied, on it's back, in his last moments, with a huge eagle, talons spread, ready to grab, kill and eat him. The mouse, is giving the eagle the finger.

There are a lot of people who will be thinking twice before purchasing from Mr. Poe from now on. But I also think you have made your point and will just hurt your own reputation by continuing to bash someone who is already down as he's going to be.

Anyway - this is just my opinion, and not worth a lot.

 

[Gregg M]

Alex, there is no point to the other side of the story..... Monte just likes to play peace maker every now and then..... I say you do what you want with the situation..... You do not look bad in my eyes and I am sure 99% of everyone reading this feels the same..... Vent away.....

 

[Gregg M]

Monte, there is nothing wrong with playing peace maker..... And you do a good job at it..... Sometimes your voice of reason even gets through to my thick head....LOL

 

[Monte]

Monte just likes to play peace maker every now and then..... .....

If I wasn't such a "peace player" - I might think I just got poked in the eye . . .

heh

 

[Hues1]

That they have a right to do whatever they want with their animals once they are paid for.

Thas all fine and dandy, but apparently the important part was missed...the reason why I was being selective of whom they were sent too, the reason why not everyone who inquired about a Mack received one, the reason why I screened potential buyers in order to ensure everyone else who was working with them would be protected.....so the above statement would not happen.

The Mack snows were far from being a no strings attached "sale".

 

[Gekkonida]

Alex,
I for one appreciate your venting! Having went through the process of buying a snow from you, I am glad you are here making the points you are. It seems all too often people make mistakes pertaining to how to get to the top. They realize the end goal of wanting to have market brand or reputation but, often sacrifice much of the reputation they have gained (slowly I might add) to take a short cut. Short cuts in this business just don't work. Now, I see two guys who have been working hard at becoming respected in the community and building reputation basically put them selves in a position to take on water. So the short cut actually ends up being the endless mile and the journey starts anew. This is unfortunate but is so often the norm.

 

[Monte]

I disagree . . .

. . . I've seen a number of people take the short cut - buy expensive stock, keep their mouths shut, be humble and quietly learn and glean information from the experienced guys - they do quite well and actually become quite respectable in the herp community in a short period of time. I won't name names, but there are some notable examples.

Dan's problem - he talks too much, doesn't measure his words and gets in trouble. He disregards standard husbandry practices, without the benefit of experience. But - If I recall, Alex probably would have sold to him, but for the attitude of his previous posts and emailings.

What if Dan had been a stand up nice guy? He would probably have the snow right now, from Alex himself.

Lot's of people take "short cuts" by buying their way into the hobby. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with that. But it's the attitude that makes or breaks people.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Hues1]

What if Dan had been a stand up nice guy? He would probably have the snow right now, from Alex himself.

Nope...poe was originally turned down...period. He then proceeded to co-erce a good friend of mine whom is also a well respected gecko breeder into talking me to sell poe one. Basically, out of respect for this friend/breeder I considered poe for one based on the fact that he was somewhat being refered, otherwise poe would've had no chance in hell. Because of his rantings and ravings via-email and over 30 messages on my answering machine...it only solidifed my original decision to turn him down...period.

 

[Gekkonida]

Actually I would say absolutely I don't agree. Give me a break infact! I don't consider a short cut buying an animal... producing it and then selling it.. That is infact the business we are in. And, those individuals that do it while maintaining intergrity deserve the reputation they gain. I would also say to them congrats! A short cut to me is tom foolery. The exact thing that happened in this situation. I for one have a problem with what happened here, Monte. Maybe, it is because if Alex would have passed on me having a snow I would have waited for one to become available from someone else to get in on the morph. In this case the short cut here is the questionable approach taken to get the animal. It all seems rather innocent I guess to some but, there is a reason Alex is so pissed. He was the guy who was on the other end of the phone who was telling people about the project. He was clear in our conversations about protecting this project. And I commend him for doing exactly that. What stinks about this is the "short cut" Dan Poe took in getting the animal. I have nothing against Dan, I even see points to his side of the situation. But I am not one for mistaking the art of business with the art of the back alley deal.

 

[Bringerofdoom]

That they have a right to do whatever they want with their animals once they are paid for.

I would normally agree with this monte, but i feel this issue is way different than a normal deal. Now out of 10? snows out there only 9 are worthy of buying from now, since people will avoid dan P like the plaugue.


Also dan P.

like i said earlier i did not know how the ameoba works .

quaranteen , what is that for so you can sit and watch your animal die ? i like to know for sure and especially on high-end animals .

i got clean fecals from the snow male when he arrived , he even ate very well during the first week so i let him breed my females .

my asking chris about his fecals , was after the fact i had the females tested .

i just couldnt see how all of a sudden he had something unless he came that way or it came from my feeders .

yes i know what im doing . did i even say what it is i know ? if you read it correctly , it meant to say i know what i am doing so there is no spread of anything between any of my animals .

I'm not twisting words either, these are your own words and sentences you wrote. Rearranged one sentance, but only to put it next to another sentence...

To me It looks like your too busy tying to get your "BIZ" off the ground (Right now it's more like a ostrich with it's head in the ground), to bother to stop and look at the BIG picture of what you are doing. Your rushing everything just to attempt to beat out others this year. right?

You took your first baby steps, then thought you can run. You are now starting to experience the pain of the cold hard concrete smack to your face, from falling dead on it.

HECK, you already are proving WHY alex did not want anyone else, other than the "pros" to posses his stock. You E-mailed chris to ask him questions, because your leo was sick and you thought alex sold it to you like that. This just shows you are mis-representing his stock already. Kind of even a slight accusation too at alex, if you ask me.....

Like i said before what good is $300 or $30,000 worth of leopard gecko's, when you cannot sell them..... Trust me if you start now, your going to wind up in trouble with the Admitting to your stock is magically springing up with severly contagious diseases.

 

[Chris@TSE]

I just find all of this amusing at this point. Lubinsky has definately disappointed numerous people in this hobby, his reputation will never be the same, and rightfully so. He said himself "I already told you Dan said he couldn't afford the animal and I'd offered to do a breeding loan even before delivery." which contradicts the original statements here. You two should have gotten together and set your story in stone boys.......... Someone is lying. Wonder who...............

Poe, well, is nobody, and will always remain nobody. His attitude and actions will always guarantee that. His husbandry skills have proved to be absolutely horrid, and he still attempts to justify them! Talk about stubborn and stupid! Keep digging kid. What did I tell you before?

I've now heard from multiple sources that he had propositioned individuals to purchase the mack snow with his money, attempting to persuade fellow breeders into a loan situation if they were to provide females. He knew what he was doing, now he is attempthing to lie his way out of an obvious situation.

Want to do yourself a favor Dan? Tell the truth. How many damn times must I say this to you?

I'd like to thank everyone for all the emails I have recieved regarding this matter. Your words are greatly appreciated.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

wow.

OK... I just read this thread in it's entirety, and I feel the need to post my feelings and opinions, too. I'm sure many of you will just say, "Geeze, why don't you just let this thread fizzle out, Marcia?" Sorry! I just can't let this pass.

First off, I completely understand Alex's perspective with being discerning about how his snow project develops by not wanting these geckos going out to 'just anybody.' I also understand that anyone who purchases an animal has the right to re-sell it to whomever they please. The only thing I do NOT understand is purchasing a rare and expensive gecko, allowing it to breed with your stock, and re-selling it within a few days. Not only does this put your own colonies in jeapordy by not practicing proper quarantine, but it puts undue stress on the poor gecko that was just acquired by subjecting it to the massive breedings and double shipping within a few days! Just the stress alone could cause this animal's immune system to be unable to fight any type of parasitic infection!

Shame on both of you 'Dans'.

Some amoebas are very serious and highly contagious. Some collections have been wiped out by amoebas. I'm curious, what medicine did the vet give you to treat it?

the vet prescribed Flagyl and Panacur , he is feeling better and we are working on follow-up fecal exams .

Dan Poe, I really don't know what to think! I wish I had saved the dozen or so emails you and I sent back and forth a few weeks back in regard to correctly dosing your geckos with Panacur paste (the horse dewormer from pet stores) and the tropical fish Flagyl tablets (also from a pet store) because you didn't want to pay for the veterinary expenses! I will not go into details, but basically this tells me that not only are you having a hard time telling the truth, but that indeed you are in such a hurry to breed this gecko that you are willing to risk his health and the health of your colonies.

Double shame on you, Dan!

no parasites have come from my collection . each group from each breeder is seperate , quaranteened , i work with them on seperate days even , use gloves , god what else , you have no idea and have been taking fecal samples to my vet as often as i can get it very fresh.... i know exactly what i am doing here . i am not some child that you can talk about in this way !

I'm not so sure about that, Dan. Tripple shame on you!

 

[Chris@TSE]

No matter how many times he has been proven a liar he will do nothing but dig his trench deeper. Coming from someone looking to start a reputable business, he is certainly doing everything in his power to see it never happens.

Thank you so much for helping my prove all of my points Poe. Please, by all means, keep it up.

 

[Hues1]

Geeze, why don't you just let this thread fizzle out

Thas the scariest thing of all...I hate to say it, but there are still unsuspecting people out there that may purchase Amoeba infested geckos from poe without prior knowledge of these issues.

It is up to each and everyone that has read through this thread to ensure that does not happen...anyone want a amoeba outbreak in the leopard gecko community that may possibly contaminate other species ?

 

[Chris@TSE]

I hardly think Dan Poe will ever encounter a day when his business consists of anything more than supplying the bottom feeders in this hobby. The only people buying from Dan Poe in the future will be uneducated first time buyers and the lowest of the absolute low. How fitting........

And again, this is all his doing. Funny how all of this could have been different if he would have simply been a bit honest. Ethics have long been forgotton by many, and in individuals like this... never existed. Its really a shame, but unfortunately a reality.

As for Lubinski, I stated previously I was very disappointed.... I expected much more from this person. His reputation preceeding this incident was outstanding. I do not know who angers me more, Poe for allowing his greed to influence a reputable breeder in this community, or Lubinski for tossing his ethics and morals out the window for personal gain. No matter what anyone says, the fact cannot be denied he was fully aware of how these were being distributed. I do not even want to hear that just because you saw them being sold at a show means everything you heard from alex was null and void. That is just plain ignorant........ Its a pathetic excuse in an attempt to justify a wrong. Get with it.....

Please, do not make matters worse than they already are. People do not seem to realise that by being stubborn they really destory any chances they have at any type of redemption. Someone really needs to set up a "bull****" filter on this forum.... I am sick and tired of hearing statements that change as discussions progress and lies.