IBD Allen belcher/Big daddys wholesale

[BryonsBoas]

I am told by Allen the he asked for the spider back,in my opinion it should have been sent back, if not buyers loss.[?quote]

If the animal was so bad off that couldn't eat on its own YOU would prefer that it be stressed even further by more shipping? Seems to me it was handled in the most humane way possible. Vet visit , attempt to get it stronger before even contemplating more shipping ( stress ) but thats just me I guess.

I am watching this closely but I can not put him out of my show without something more solid.

I look at every table at my show before it opens and will have animals removed if they do not look outwardly healthy.I have also permanently barred vendors for this problem.

You call the shots with your show right? For most just the possibility of a deadly disease would be enough but it looks like more doing nothing against your largest vendor. Permanant ban for bad looking animals but need more proof after a vet report was posted. Umm , yeah , need something harder than that , yeah , OK .

 

[Cat_72]

If the animal was so bad off that couldn't eat on its own YOU would prefer that it be stressed even further by more shipping? Seems to me it was handled in the most humane way possible. Vet visit , attempt to get it stronger before even contemplating more shipping ( stress ) but thats just me I guess.

See.....the problem with that is, the buyer had a CONSCIENCE and actually cared about the welfare of the ANIMAL. Some folks just can't comprehend that, caring more about the animal than the almighty dollar. Weird concept, huh?

 

[Dixie Reptiles]

So many experts ,I wish I had come here before I ever started a show so all of you could tell me how to run one.Bryon,if I sold you a snake and you were not happy with it and I asked you to send it back and you refused what would you expect me to do ?And if it ,s about the snake and not the money why is Jon trying to find a way to sue Allen to get his money back.It is obvious that you have it in for Allen and no matter what he does you will find fault, just as you are doing with me.Terry

 

[Cat_72]

Why is he trying to sue Allen? Because the snake is DEAD, Terry. At least with Jon taking proper care of it, treating it, and assist feeding it, the poor thing had a chance. If you had thrown a snake that sick into a box and shipped it, the stress alone probably would have killed it.

Terry, if Allen had not denied everything presented to him, and made a legitimate effort to determine if he had any illness in his facility, perhaps people would look at this whole thing differently. Yes, in wholesale, these things CAN happen. But Allen has done NOTHING except continue business as usual to try to make sure that this won't happen again. And again, and again. THAT is what is at the heart of this matter. And people are getting down on YOU because you seem to show no more concern about it than Allen.

Loyalty to a friend is a great thing, unless they are willing to take you down with them.

 

[airtrixx]

Some people ya just cant reach bryon....what a shame. I can see why terry and allen are friends, birds of a feather flock together.

 

[Cat_72]

Allen has done NOTHING except continue business as usual to try to make sure that this won't happen again.

Just to clarify that sentence.......Allen has done nothing to try to make sure nothing like this happens again...he is simply conducting business as usual.

 

[Wilomn]

Just to clarify that sentence.......Allen has done nothing to try to make sure nothing like this happens again...he is simply conducting business as usual.

Hasn't he also dramatically lowered prices on some breeders as well as hatchlings? Sort of like someone who's trying to unload shoddy goods before they go bad would do?

Terry, you're backing a scumbag. By backing that scumbag, you are saying, "hi, my name is terry, I'm a scumbag."

What's more important to you, your reputation and past good standing or having one of the biggest scumbags in the business buy tables at your show, which, by the way, is already, though not very publickly at the moment, being boycotted by those who know how serious this is?

 

[Chameleon Company]

As you said Terry. So many experts, who seem to know all that Allen has, and apparently has not, done. It is unfortunate that the ill snake died, but Allen's offer to take it back is consistent with the TOS of most, and likely exceeds many. Honoring a health guarantee well beyond its time limit, when the customer has refused to return the animal, is not the industry standard.

Banning a vendor from a show once their name has been mentioned in the same sentence as IBD, and/or trying to remove their access to any market whatsoever, will absolutely crimp the spread of IBD. It also will not happen, as it will violate legal statutes left and right. It will take some kind of proof, to include a legal standard that an identified violator has not maintained acceptable protocols afterwards. They are not in place yet, and they may never be. It would fall on the shoulders of state animal and/or health regulating agencies, and for every one that gave IBD a look, many more would not, as it does not affect people, dogs, cats, feed livestock, or poultry. Birds get extra attention because they can transfer much to humans.

Any show promoter, while listening to his customers on a matter like this, will also have to get legal advice before putting a policy in place. The bottom line is that any banning policy has to be easily defined and understood, and then objectively applied. Without the involvement of the state agencies, it becomes cost prohibitive for any show promoter if identifying IBD is the standard. It doesn't mean that Terry does not care, or has not taken some actions. What you are most likely to see are more stringent policies applied to vendors regarding the health and cleanliness of their animals. One suggestion would be that if even one mite was found during an inspection of a vendor's table, the vendor must leave. We do not know that mites transfer the disease, but most of us would agree that the higher the husbandry standards of the vendor, the lower the likelihood of IBD. The idea would be to adopt vendor standards that identify the more conscientious vendors, and encourage others to improve.

 

[The BoidSmith]

So many experts ,I wish I had come here before I ever started a show so all of you could tell me how to run one.Bryon,if I sold you a snake and you were not happy with it and I asked you to send it back and you refused what would you expect me to do ?And if it ,s about the snake and not the money why is Jon trying to find a way to sue Allen to get his money back.It is obvious that you have it in for Allen and no matter what he does you will find fault, just as you are doing with me.Terry

Terry,

In reading this thread I can’t see where anyone is telling you how to run your show. What I do get out of it though is the concern manifested by most towards other people’s animals and, believe it or not, towards you and your reputation. Even those that treated you harshly are doing so because they care. If they wouldn’t they will let you sink without even opening their mouth. So take it for what it is: the advice of a group of concerned herpers that want their best for their animals and the hobby as a whole.

There’s one completely unbiased third party with enough expertise that has diagnosed IBD in a snake which everything seems to indicate was sold by Allen. There’s a second expert that although unable to diagnose IBD on a sickly snake sold by Allen, is not ruling it out altogether either. What else do you need to take some measures in order to protect the health of your clients’ animals? It seems you think your clients are the one’s who pay for tables at your show. In reality “your clients” are those who buy from who sell at your show. Without them there will be no show and that’s what will happen. It will take just one animal contracting the ailment at your show for this to happen.

With your attitude you are not only damaging yourself but the image of other shows also. As far as I’m concerned this experience has been an eye opener, and I’m not planning on buying from shows in the future. My first purchase was this year and it was from a well-known reptile breeder. But with the awareness you have created here there’s no chance I will risk my animals in the future. Even this person is not protected from the cross-contamination that can accidentally happen when attending a show.

As far as returning the sick animal for a refund you are using the logic of inanimate objects. Yes, you return a defective toaster first and then you get a full refund from “Customer Service”. There’s a large group of herp breeders and keepers (with exceptions, obviously) who are into this because they like and get attached to their animals. Once an animal arrives to their place they will do their best to give him proper care, and will not risk its life in any way. They are not inanimate objects that you can return for a refund or replacement.

Regards.

 

[Cat_72]

Allen's own words....

I HAVE HAD THE UNIVERSITY DO PRELIMINARY BLOOD WORK THAT CAME BACK FINE ON MY SNAKES. IBD IS NOT AN AIRBORN DISEASE. IT IS TRANSFERED THROUGH BLOOD, SEX, AND OTHER BODILY FLUIDS.

I HAVE 8 BOAS IN MY ENTIRE COLLECTION OF HIGH ENDS. THEY ARE KEEP IN A ROOM THAT CONTAINS RETICULATED PYTHONS. IF I HAD IBD I WOULD HAVE KNOWN IT ALONG TIME AGO THROUGH THE DEATH OF MY RETICS.

I BELIEVE WITH EVERYTHING THAT I KNOW AND HAVE WITNESSED WITH MY COLLECTION THAT I AM IBD FREE. ALSO I WILL CONTINUE TO SELL SNAKES AT THE BEST PRICES AND OF THE BEST QUALITY AT SHOWS AND ON THE INTERNET.

With his vast knowledge (and a few blood and FECAL tests) he has declared himself IBD free.

THIS is why we have issues, Terry.

As far as returning the sick animal for a refund you are using the logic of inanimate objects. Yes, you return a defective toaster first and then you get a full refund from “Customer Service”. There’s a large group of herp breeders and keepers (with exceptions, obviously) who are into this because they like and get attached to their animals. Once an animal arrives to their place they will do their best to give him proper care, and will not risk its life in any way. They are not inanimate objects that you can return for a refund or replacement.

Very well said!

 

[Metachrosis]

Well said !
In our limited experience we have concluded that all future purchases will not be from breeders that sell and or transport animals to "events".There are plenty of quality breed animals and their breeders that have never graced the internet limelight.
The risk is to great for us to chance,both from a disease as well as integrity standpoint.

Aint Worth It !

M/

 

[The BoidSmith]

Banning a vendor from a show once their name has been mentioned in the same sentence as IBD, and/or trying to remove their access to any market whatsoever, will absolutely crimp the spread of IBD. It also will not happen, as it will violate legal statutes left and right. It will take some kind of proof, to include a legal standard that an identified violator has not maintained acceptable protocols afterwards. They are not in place yet, and they may never be. It would fall on the shoulders of state animal and/or health regulating agencies, and for every one that gave IBD a look, many more would not, as it does not affect people, dogs, cats, feed livestock, or poultry. Birds get extra attention because they can transfer much to humans.

Jim,

I'm not sure if I understand what you meant by "crimp the spread of IBD".

As far as the proof goes, wasn't that provided in the very first post of this thread? It seems that the IBD status of the first snake has been determined beyond any reasonable doubt, unless of course we question the validity of unbiased third party veterinary tests. Now, having the proof at hand, wouldn't it be the responsibility of the seller to run all necessary tests to return to an IBD-free status before resuming sales.

At this point I agree it's highly unrealistic to run tests in every snake breeder in the country. Going back to how regulatory agencies address the problem, when an outbreak of for example TB occurs in cattle they don't test every herd in that state. They will isolate that herd in particular, and no animals will be allowed in or out of the farm until they determine it’s TB free.

Yes, the USDA or APHIS will not care about IBD in snakes as they don't pose a threat to human health. That doesn't mean that we have to close our eyes and say "well if they don't care why should we"? It's us as an industry that should be concerned, take ownership of the problem, and start policing ourselves.

Regards

 

[Jon Mitchell]

Terry,

I want to clarify a statement you made about me suing Allen for some type of monetary reason. If there is to be a suit, it would not be for some type of monetary gain for myself. If I am to go through with it, it will be for the protection of other individuals unknowingly purchasing animals from a vendor that obviously doesn't care about his animals or the animals of his customers. Beleive me, if the spider had IBD prior to it's death, I have a lot at stake and I would hate to see someone elses collection wiped out because of Allen's lack of a heart.

As far as the comments about shipping the snake back to Allen, I want to make sure this is known. Allen did go out of his way for me to ship the snake back to him "to get him going again" even after the TOS that most vendors have. Now, upon reading this forum and seeing the problem that Airtrixx had, and knowing that the snake was in no way in any condition to be shipped to me in the first place let alone shipped right back to Allen, I decided not to ship him back. On the same turn of the coin, I never asked Allen for a refund nor did I ask him for a replacement animal. He offered a replacement animal that he stated was eating well for him but with Allen's misreprensentation of the spider I bought from him, an exchange would have been out of the question too. I dealt with it. I got ripped off by a guy that doesn't care about his or anyone else's animals. I did everything I could for the spider to get him to eat, deficate, get healthy. I exhausted every means I could to ensure that he would get better. Obviously I could have went out and shipped the snake back to Allen and purchase another one from a RELIABLE breeder but I felt knew the care Allen would give to it and I didn't want it to end up in a freezer.

I do want to let everyone know that I have taken steps to hopefully ensure that Allen can't infect others with his animals atleast for a little while. I have filed a formal complaint with KS and with a government agency. Let's hope that this kind of business will not be allowed to continue under it's current conditions.

J_

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dan,

You asked for a clarification to this:

Banning a vendor from a show once their name has been mentioned in the same sentence as IBD, and/or trying to remove their access to any market whatsoever, will absolutely crimp the spread of IBD.

I believe that what I said could also be stated as "once a vendor is suspected of having recently had IBD in their animals, if they are then banned from all sales outlets, it will reduce the spread of IBD". That's going to have to do.

Now here's one for you. Could you explain how a low-end wholesaler can accomplish the following:

Now, having the proof at hand, wouldn't it be the responsibility of the seller to run all necessary tests to return to an IBD-free status before resuming sales.

I think that "IBD minimized" status might be more realistic, but even there, we have varying protocols as to how to accomplish this, again enhanced by not understanding the mechanism of how this is spread.

Regarding Joe's loss, I thank you for the explanation Joe. Dan, we can argue who "cares" more for their animals, but refund/compensation policies are not quite the stuff of emotion. Joe did clarify that refund was not his consideration. The legal discussion has already had a good run earlier in the thread, and rather than post my opinion again regarding such, maybe Joe will keep us updated as the legal claim progresses, if he chooses to pursue it. Or if he learns things or gains advice which would cause him not to pursue it, he could also post those insights here.

As voiced by several, "Buyer Beware", and all cautions relating to it, are your first and best protections.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Jon, my apologies, as I referred to you as Joe.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I believe that what I said could also be stated as "once a vendor is suspected of having recently had IBD in their animals, if they are then banned from all sales outlets, it will reduce the spread of IBD". That's going to have to do.

We are in agreement there.

Now, having the proof at hand, wouldn't it be the responsibility of the seller to run all necessary tests to return to an IBD-free status before resuming sales.

Step number one: have a closed facility; no animals are allowed in or out. For how long? It depends on how widespread the problem is. The sooner he starts with it the greater the chances to control its spread within all his animals. Step number two: Run liver biopsies on each animal that shows similar symptoms of the disease.

Now if your answer is that this is costly, you are right. How will he survive in the meantime? By finding another source of income. If he chooses not to do it, his days as a reptile breeder/seller/wholeseller are numbered. Not just simply because of bad publicity but because he will have no animals to sell.

His approach right now seems to be to get rid of every animal as soon as he can. Think about the person (I can't recall his name on top of my head) whose collection was infected with IBD not so long ago. He could have taken two approaches. The first one: not even mention he had the disease and sell all his animals at discounted prices. The second one: perform euthanasia in every animal in his collection. Was his decision based on practicality or an assessment of how much money he was loosing, or on just doing the right thing? Which one do you think was the "ethical approach"?

Now if your answer is that this is costly, you are right. How will he survive in the meantime? By finding another source of income. If he chooses not to do it, his days as a reptile breeder/seller/wholeseller are numbered. Not just simply because of bad publicity but because he will have no animals to sell.

I think that "IBD minimized" status might be more realistic, but even there, we have varying protocols as to how to accomplish this, again enhanced by not understanding the mechanism of how this is spread.

With a disease like IBD there's no such thing as "minimized status", either you eradicate it or you don't. One infected animal in a 100 animal breeding facility could be considered a "minimized status". What does it mean in practical terms? One animal too many! You don't "minimize" a deadly disease, you have to eradicate it. You can survive with a certain parasite load in your collection (thus minimizing their impact), but once you introduce an animal with IBD it will wipe it out.

Regards.

 

[Jon Mitchell]

I agree Dan. I have decided to not purchase any more animals, nor sell any of my offspring this year until I know for certain that IBD has not been introduced into my collection. Will this hurt me financially? Sure it will. This was my "break out year" with snakes. I have spent time, money, and energy into these snakes with the hope of atleast breaking even.

I do want to ask a question to everyone that is willing to post. I have done some extensive research on IBD as of late, (for obvious reasons) and I am looking at it this way: If I introduced IBD into my collection with an animal purchased from Allen, I should see results of this infection within a year. My plan now is to keep monitoring the snakes I have, all of whcih are ball pythons, for symptoms. I am going to continue with this years breeding cycles but again, I am not going to offer these animals for sale at the time they would be available. I am going to sit on them for a year and see how they react. If I don't see any signs of IBD and the vet gives the ok after that years time, what would your thoughts be on me offering them for sale as sub-adult animals? Every where I have read says that a Ball should be dead within a 6 month time period from contraction. If I see none of my other snakes die and the juvinile balls outwardly appear healthy and the vets bloodwork comes back saying they are good, what do you think about me selling them then?

Just want to know what others would do.

J_

 

[The BoidSmith]

I agree Dan. I have decided to not purchase any more animals, nor sell any of my offspring this year until I know for certain that IBD has not been introduced into my collection. Will this hurt me financially? Sure it will. This was my "break out year" with snakes. I have spent time, money, and energy into these snakes with the hope of atleast breaking even.

I do want to ask a question to everyone that is willing to post. I have done some extensive research on IBD as of late, (for obvious reasons) and I am looking at it this way: If I introduced IBD into my collection with an animal purchased from Allen, I should see results of this infection within a year. My plan now is to keep monitoring the snakes I have, all of whcih are ball pythons, for symptoms. I am going to continue with this years breeding cycles but again, I am not going to offer these animals for sale at the time they would be available. I am going to sit on them for a year and see how they react. If I don't see any signs of IBD and the vet gives the ok after that years time, what would your thoughts be on me offering them for sale as sub-adult animals? Every where I have read says that a Ball should be dead within a 6 month time period from contraction. If I see none of my other snakes die and the juvinile balls outwardly appear healthy and the vets bloodwork comes back saying they are good, what do you think about me selling them then?

Just want to know what others would do.

J_

Jon,

That's exactly the approach I'm talking about. Although the bloodwork will
not allow you to diagnose IBD, a high white blood cell count will at least tell you that something is not quite right with their immune system.

Regards.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dan,
It all would be nice. But there is no "proof of eradication", especially with a wholesaler's environment, except for them to cease business permanently and burn it all down. Secondly, unless a state agency steps up, it isn't going to happen. Any wholesaler that has an incidence of IBD has the internal motivation to do something, as it will eradicate their animals, and it doesn't matter what your and my ethics are to the wholesaler, as we can only exercise our ethics as buyers. Some wholesalers will try to sell off before the animals die. Some will hopefully act more responsibly. Will they voluntarily adopt a protocol similar to yours ? If they discover it internally, without it getting out, will they voluntarily announce it ? And if you, as a buyer, are at a show where a vendor A had been identified as having had IBD months earlier, and had reasonable documentation that they had followed a strict cleansing and quarantine protocol afterwards, and vendor B, across the room, had the same animals at the same price, and never had their name mentioned with IBD, you will buy where ?

Point of it all is that while your recommendations would be commendable if adopted voluntarily by a wholesaler, or mandated by a state agency, don't hold your breath. I also think it is reasonable to have different expectations of a high-end hobbyist vs. a low-end wholesaler. Re-stated, I would at least hope that most buyers realized that they were assuming a much higher risk with a wholesaler. Like it or not, I have no problem understanding Terry's position, and that of other promoters, in dealing with this and similar problems. Outside of every person voting with their dollars, any mandated remedy will have to pass a legal litmus test as well.

IBD has been found in many different parts of the country, and in some major facilities, and is rumored to have been in many more. My lips are sealed otherwise. Does anyone care to post up the IBD policies of other promoters ? What they require as "proof"? Thanks for the time and conversation Dan. Always a pleasure.

 

[shrap]

Jon,

I am in complete agreement with Dan. That is exactly how I would handle things if I were in your position. Kudos to you sir for doing things the right and ethical way!!!

When you are ready to sell, look me up. I will be more than happy to spend my money with you.