Inbreeding

[outsdr2]

you dont like when things head in a positive direction do you? wel to answer your question i think the larger breeders arent coming forward to talk about it if they are having die-offs,why would they?they would lose money thats why! sandfire,dachiu,sunshine....you dont think they are having die-offs or problems? kevin from sandfire told me on the phone if they look weak and can not handle shipping they euthanize them.you will have to ask them why they are not coming here to talk about it jim.why isnt your buddy vicki coming forward about ANYTHING?

I agree jim, you are in the loop. tell us one good reason the silkback project should continue. just one. Im begging? besides the obvious dollar, which I beleive will be a bust for that sad excuse of a beardie.

Jack

 

[Tere Salazar]

How are you going to get people to listen and believe you if you dont bring the proof to the table then?
Ive been wondering this for a long time. If it really is how people say, where is the proof?
Do I make sence?

Jim

Because I, personally, don't care what you believe. I know what I live day in and day out, and I don't have to prove anything to you, nor does anyone else.

If people can't believe what's going on after Wendy and I came forward, they're not going to believe it when more people come forward either.

See, regardless of whatever you claim now, I know in my heart that that could all change in the blink of an eye, just like it did for me.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

JimD, when I initially found out I had adeno in my colony I was advised by a well respected larger breeder to not tell anyone. He said if I did it would ruin any chances I had of ever breeding again. In the end, I had to do what I could sleep with at night. I think that 20-30 breeders hit with the adeno that results in large die offs is way too high of an estimate. I do not think it is massive amounts. But from what info I have become aware of, it does hit some breeders each year. I think that there has been a fear put into people to not come forward. I almost listened to that person with regards to not coming forward and it would have been a shame. I do not think it is a plague, but it is certainly a health concern that warrants further attention. I do not think enough is known to advocate business as usual. I do feel that what happened to me can happen to anyone who is breeding. I have faith that Tere and I are not the only ones willing to come forward. We basically have to wait and see on that front.

 

[JimD]

Jack.
I know you hate the silkbacks. Thats fine. A lot of people do. A lot of people like them though. Without getting into how wrong you think it is to breed these because Ive read all the threads. I will answer your question. From the time Man has walked the earth he has wanted more. A lot of the things we have done has not been in the good of the earth but we have done it regardless.
People like these silkbacks. For those of us who like them, we should be able to have one.

Jim

 

[Tere Salazar]

I'm trying to keep this civil Puppytoes but I would guess because of people like you. Not the others, but you.
I'm asking questions to learn as much more as I can.
Ill see if I can give you some fuel for your fire. My wife and I breed a fair amount of dragons. We have had die off before. Nothing even close to what is brought up here though. We've had babies not do well like their clutch mates. I have dragons from all over the States. Believe that we have AV (can not get the tests done in Canada) but have had two necropsy's done with no sign of AV detected. Doesn't make sense.

Jim

OMG, Jim. Please tell me you're not serious. You assumed you had Adeno in your colony because you experienced die-offs? Really, you guys cannot have it both ways!

You tell us not to assume our animals die from Adeno (or more appropriately, complications from Adeno). Should you not assume the same and understand that sometimes things happen, and that supposedly, there is an acceptable number of die-offs per clutch? Better yet, isn't that what you've been telling us?

I do have a question, and this is entirely sincere and serious. Please don't answer this. That's not the goal here. It's my understanding that for Adenovirus to be detected in a necropsy, that an electron microscope has to be used. If anyone knows otherwise, please correct me. Anyway...what I'm saying is that if you can't find someone there to do the fecal testing that requires an electron microscope, how would that person be able to perform a necropsy looking for Adenovirus?

 

[JimD]

Ive been breeding for 4-5 years. We've had Dragons from the States the whole time. How long did you both breed before you had die off?

Jim.

 

[puppytoes72]

I'm trying to keep this civil Puppytoes but I would guess because of people like you. Not the others, but you.
I'm asking questions to learn as much more as I can.
Ill see if I can give you some fuel for your fire. My wife and I breed a fair amount of dragons. We have had die off before. Nothing even close to what is brought up here though. We've had babies not do well like their clutch mates. I have dragons from all over the States. Believe that we have AV (can not get the tests done in Canada) but have had two necropsy's done with no sign of AV detected. Doesn't make sense.

Jim

yes jim,we ARE ALL asking questions to learn as much as we can but certain ppl will just lurk in the shadows and not answer them and you stick up for that.we are all here wanting the answers so why cant she post a statement?

 

[JimD]

Tere.
I assumed we had AV because of the amount of Dragons we have that come from the States.

Jim

 

[Tere Salazar]

Ive been breeding for 4-5 years. We've had Dragons from the States the whole time. How long did you both breed before you had die off?

Jim.

I was second year, and I believe Wendy was, as well.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Sorry, Wendy. Didn't see you were here.

 

[pscaulkins]

I want to thank Denise and Tere for sharing more information about their experiences with adeno. I personally know of two hobbyist breeders that were breeding dragons that had clutches of babies super tiny. They had huge die offs and would not listen to me about testing or adeno. Instead, they disposed of the sickly ones and sold the rest. I live in a tiny town and no one here believes much off the net. They would never come to this forum to share. There is to much bickering and politics. Also, at a reptile show last summer, their were breeders selling 6 week old 3" dragons. I spoke to that breeder and he said they just won't grow. I told him about adeno and he said he never planned on breeding again because of all the trouble he had with his clutches. I do believe there are a lot of people that has bred dragons only to have major issues. If it is not controlled, it will get worse.

Silkbacks are sad looking. But that is only my opinion. If Vicki and that Italian breeder were responsible, they would out breed them to strength the lines for years before putting them on the market. I don't mean a few years. So any health issues that may crop up by their imbreeding/mutations would be known to the public. I would not want to purchase a new breed knowing what I know about imbreeding and sickly dragons. I also would never take on another adeno positive dragon. Both of mine now are thriving and huge now but at one point they were dying. Their care was costly and time consuming. But we love them and know that they will be our last dragons.

Sandy

 

[Crazydude]

Jim, Going back 2-4 pages (depends on when this is posted) with your question even though its already been answered. Do you think people want to come foward after what has happend to Tere and Wendy. If it was a simple "we have it" then most would but people have to make it so god darn difficult to say without people throwing things left and right at you trying to blame it on dufferent stuff and making up excuses and such. You have seen what they have been through. No breeder in there right mind would come foward after that unless they are basically ready for the beating. If people wernt persicuted for their beleives on Adeno and that they have adeno positive and a huge deal wasnt made then more would come foward. I think also that if more came foward people would think. Ok so a lot of breeders have stoped breeding because of adeno , why isnt this breeder even though there positive. Every time I see a breeder that has stoped breeding is a sad feeling but its for the best. Your happy that it limits adeno possitive babies comming out but sad that they may or do have problems with there dragons and they are faced with this this weight of everyone yelling at you.

Im currious Jim, Cant you get a document or something to alow cross border shipping? I know you can for live animals so why not for other things. Im possitive you can so why not look into it. Just a Idea.

Adeno is a problem, Im not saying plaque but it cant be ignored. The same goes for inbreeding. Both basically do the same thing. They weaken the imume system.

Im just wondering, About a year ago wasnt canada considered a Adeno Negative zone? So has Jim brought it over or was it considered negative because you cant test?

Just a thought. So back to something ive been wondering for awhile. If you beleive you are possitive why still breed Jim? Seeing Die offs must be a sad thing, Or does it just effect your bank account? I remember some breeders saying they barely break even. Not people breed for money. Wheres this going? Are we going to have dragons without legs soon?


Also maybe jim can answer this because

 

[Crazydude]

Sorry the last part of my post didnt go through. Just ignore the last sentence.

Thanks again
Ben

 

[puppytoes72]

I want to thank Denise and Tere for sharing more information about their experiences with adeno. I personally know of two hobbyist breeders that were breeding dragons that had clutches of babies super tiny. They had huge die offs and would not listen to me about testing or adeno. Instead, they disposed of the sickly ones and sold the rest. I live in a tiny town and no one here believes much off the net. They would never come to this forum to share. There is to much bickering and politics. Also, at a reptile show last summer, their were breeders selling 6 week old 3" dragons. I spoke to that breeder and he said they just won't grow. I told him about adeno and he said he never planned on breeding again because of all the trouble he had with his clutches. I do believe there are a lot of people that has bred dragons only to have major issues. If it is not controlled, it will get worse.

Silkbacks are sad looking. But that is only my opinion. If Vicki and that Italian breeder were responsible, they would out breed them to strength the lines for years before putting them on the market. I don't mean a few years. So any health issues that may crop up by their imbreeding/mutations would be known to the public. I would not want to purchase a new breed knowing what I know about imbreeding and sickly dragons. I also would never take on another adeno positive dragon. Both of mine now are thriving and huge now but at one point they were dying. Their care was costly and time consuming. But we love them and know that they will be our last dragons.

Sandy

great post sandy,and you are doing a wonderful job with your beardies

 

[Tere Salazar]

I want to thank Denise and Tere for sharing more information about their experiences with adeno. I personally know of two hobbyist breeders that were breeding dragons that had clutches of babies super tiny. They had huge die offs and would not listen to me about testing or adeno. Instead, they disposed of the sickly ones and sold the rest. I live in a tiny town and no one here believes much off the net. They would never come to this forum to share. There is to much bickering and politics. Also, at a reptile show last summer, their were breeders selling 6 week old 3" dragons. I spoke to that breeder and he said they just won't grow. I told him about adeno and he said he never planned on breeding again because of all the trouble he had with his clutches. I do believe there are a lot of people that has bred dragons only to have major issues. If it is not controlled, it will get worse.

Silkbacks are sad looking. But that is only my opinion. If Vicki and that Italian breeder were responsible, they would out breed them to strength the lines for years before putting them on the market. I don't mean a few years. So any health issues that may crop up by their imbreeding/mutations would be known to the public. I would not want to purchase a new breed knowing what I know about imbreeding and sickly dragons. I also would never take on another adeno positive dragon. Both of mine now are thriving and huge now but at one point they were dying. Their care was costly and time consuming. But we love them and know that they will be our last dragons.

Sandy

You're welcome, Sandy. Thank you for offering your experiences.

But the last sentences of your post make me so sad. That's NOT how things are supposed to be, and it's still so frustrating to know there are still people intentionally doing this to others.

 

[JimD]

Crazydude.
Our Vet has already got the paperwork lined up for us to legally ship blood/fecal matter across the border. You do need proper paper work to do this. She is waiting for their lab here to get the o.k from whomever they work with in the States.
As for Canada ever being a known "AV free zone" I couldn't answer that. I haven't known about AV for very long and from other breeders I talk to across Canada they hadn't either.

Jim.

 

[Denisebme]

Seeing as this thread has gone back to AV and not so much about inbreeding I have a question/comment.
IF there is/was major dieoff due to AV why would people not come forward and bring it to everyones attention? I know you will all say that people don't want to be attacked but if 20-30 came forward with proof who could attack?
This is being put here as a neutral question/statement. Its not directed at anyone.
I have only seen two people come forward with dieoff. I'm just wondering why?

Jim

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know why most people stay silent on this issue Jim. Every single person who has stepped forward with a strong position has been attacked in really personal ways.
It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what happens if people come forward with positive test results and ask questions. Its not pretty.
After my own experience on the BOI, I almost gave up on this community entirely, because even AFTER the truth was really clear in my case, it made no real difference at all.
There is a whole lot of effort being put into insuring that people think that AV is no big deal. When you put aside the agendas and just talk to people without judgment, you find that there are a whole lot of people who never plan to breed, they just have pets that are positive and they are trying to get answers because they ARE having issues, and it does this community no good if we continue to ignore it.

 

[Denisebme]

Jack.
I know you hate the silkbacks. Thats fine. A lot of people do. A lot of people like them though. Without getting into how wrong you think it is to breed these because Ive read all the threads. I will answer your question. From the time Man has walked the earth he has wanted more. A lot of the things we have done has not been in the good of the earth but we have done it regardless.
People like these silkbacks. For those of us who like them, we should be able to have one.

Jim

Why? There is no biblical, constitutional or philosophical guarantee that you can create whatever mess you want just so you can own a deformed animal, and IF you choose to create it and publicize it, people have the right to express their opinions about it.
This mutation has caused a furor for a reason, you can make light of it if you wish, but don't expect people to not hold you to answer for it.

 

[JimD]

Denise.
Are all your tests still coming back negative? If so are you breeding this year?

Jim

 

[Denisebme]

I want to thank Denise and Tere for sharing more information about their experiences with adeno. I personally know of two hobbyist breeders that were breeding dragons that had clutches of babies super tiny. They had huge die offs and would not listen to me about testing or adeno. Instead, they disposed of the sickly ones and sold the rest. I live in a tiny town and no one here believes much off the net. They would never come to this forum to share. There is to much bickering and politics. Also, at a reptile show last summer, their were breeders selling 6 week old 3" dragons. I spoke to that breeder and he said they just won't grow. I told him about adeno and he said he never planned on breeding again because of all the trouble he had with his clutches. I do believe there are a lot of people that has bred dragons only to have major issues. If it is not controlled, it will get worse.

Silkbacks are sad looking. But that is only my opinion. If Vicki and that Italian breeder were responsible, they would out breed them to strength the lines for years before putting them on the market. I don't mean a few years. So any health issues that may crop up by their imbreeding/mutations would be known to the public. I would not want to purchase a new breed knowing what I know about imbreeding and sickly dragons. I also would never take on another adeno positive dragon. Both of mine now are thriving and huge now but at one point they were dying. Their care was costly and time consuming. But we love them and know that they will be our last dragons.

Sandy

No need to thank me Sandy, I'm just happy people are talking about it again.