Indigo umbilical scar

[Stanley M. Ordonez]

Thank you

Thank you

 

[eminart]

That's exactly what I was wondering . I haven't seen him but I have seen his presence meaning when he catches a bird ,feathers are in a rectangular circle.his trails .little things now that make sense to me that I noticed in the past . Truly relieved and waiting for the next sighting . No touching . I would like to see it in complete length where it lives . I would probably have to camp out and wait without the dogs . I'm amazed .

Just catching up on this thread. Great to hear you have a wild indigo nearby, and are treating it with respect. However, as both a falconer, and an indigo owner, I have to chime in about your bird feathers. An indigo, or any snake for that matter, won't leave a pile of feathers. They just swallow the whole bird, feathers and all. What you're seeing is the work of a raptor, most likely a cooper's hawk, or possibly a sharp-shinned hawk, merlin, or kestrel. It could also be a cat, but probably one of the hawks I mentioned.

 

[bmwdirtracer]

An excellent point, Scott. My cats leave piles of feathers, a snake never does.....

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Stanley:

What evidence do you have that this is a genetic defect caused by inbreeding? What evidence do you have that these snakes should not be bred? Other than the fact that people have trouble with hatching out babies, which another (experienced) person has said is normal due to the difficulties associated with incubation and breeding this species. Have you personally bred this species and noticed that inbred babies always have split scales and outbred babies do not? For that matter, have you bred them at all?

I have seen you make some pretty serious claims and have not seen you provide any sort of basis for them. We have an experienced keeper of indigos having 3 generations of unrelated pairings that still have split scales; this to me implies it is NOT the result of inbreeding and completely invalidates your claims.

If you could share with us what you are basing your argument on other than buying one snake and returning it I would very much appreciate it (and I'm sure others would as well).

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I'm also curious where you came up with the "two scale" rule. On the ball python you posted I see a split between 4-5 scales. I have also hatched out ball pythons from two completely unrelated parents (I'm talking that originated from opposite ends of the country) that had a larger split, mainly due to incubations issues. Considering the accuracy needed to obtain viable eggs in the case of indigos, does this not seem to be more likely than not?

Read Robert Bruce's guide on breeding indigos and then tell me it's not difficult to breed them. I really don't understand where you came up with your theory but I don't think someone who owns one indigo should be talking about exactly how many scales each indigo should have split in order to be considered acceptable or how much they should cost.

 

[Stanley M. Ordonez]

Indigo- split scale

I had a new lover of Eastern Indigos message me on split scales on these snakes. He recently purchased an eastern indigo and did not notice the defect till a couple of weeks after the purchase. It is too bad that he did not see the problem . He is a novice and what bothers me is that the seller who has some knowledge of what good specimen should look like; sold him an eastern indigo stating that it was in perfect shape. It has split scales; if you want to see split scales take a look at my previous post- I returned this snake. What advice do you have for this person. I wished he would of seen the problem. I my opinion this breeder took advantage of the buyer. But the buyer should of done his homework before the purchase. If I were the breeder; even though time has gone by, the breed should take back now the larger indigo with a partial refund. If our word means anything we should stand by it. I wish you both luck .

 

[bmwdirtracer]

At this point in the discussion, I'd mention that I had an absolutely perfectly scaled 7 foot girl; apparently a magnificent, perfect specimen, bred by Steve Binnig. She died, last year, of an enlarged heart. All my other 5 couperi (from entirely different breeders) are doing exceptionally well. Needless to say. I don't believe that a few split scales and genetic defects like enlarged hearts are related.


And again, decades ago, I owned several wild caught couperi with split scales.

Stanley, I think you're talking out of your hat, with no evidence, no experience, and in contradiction to very respected breeders. No point spreading hearsay and nonsense, let's use science.

 

[lemitchell]

Hi thank you for starting this discussion. I have a 2016 female black phase with what I think are splitscales/umbilical scar. Attached a picture. Can anyone confirm for me? My breeder says it is an umbilical/natal scar but I also see one Y scale.


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[lemitchell]

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[tim brophy]

I see both the umbilical scar, which appears to be maybe 9 scales in length. I also see the split scale posterior to the umbilical region. That split scale is not part of the umbilical scars.

 

[Stanley M. Ordonez]

Split scales

The umbilical scar is short and not deep. By your photo, this is not an umbilical scar. It is too deep and too many scales are involved. Take a look at my pic on my thread on an eastern indigo with a red throat. The problem is more common in indigos with red throats; I do not know why? Could it be that breeders are trying to get a more intense red throats and breed related lines?? On your snake I would bet that if it is in an arc/bend in that area that you would see these scales independent of each other and this splint will be very noticeable . If it does this you do not have an umbilical scar. Take a look at my pic. Even though the seller said it was an umbilical scar and that I would not find better, I returned the red throat eastern indigo. I was glad I did and I learned a valuable lesson. Aberrant scales are one of the first signs of inbreeding. Alan Brutosky and east coast drymarchon can help answer some of your questions. Was this snake the first clutch this breeder hatched out; indigos?

 

[tim brophy]

Alan knows his stuff. No doubt about that. But in my opinion the umbilical scar is also shown here. If not, where the heck is the umbilical scar? It may be within the long scar shown here. Those scales are in the proper location to be an umbilical scar. In a neonate snake, it has to be somewhere.
I am not debating the problem with inbreeding indigos, nor am I defending the seller who sold you the indigo you returned. But what evidence do you have that this problem is more severe in red throat indigos? And yes, I know all about Bruce's attempts to produce brighter red throats, and the subsequent inbreeding disasters.

 

[Stanley M. Ordonez]

indigo

I have no evidence that the defect is more prevalent in red throats. But it is mentioned more in the red throats.

 

[tim brophy]

I think we agree that inbreeding is an issue with couperi, and it will get worse until Alan and his guys are successful in establishing a group of unrelated couperi. I do not know of anyone else who is even attempting this. The split scales are all we got to determine degree of inbreeding. I have seen a few in which virtually every scale was wanky, from severely inbred animals. Unbelievable. I have several couperi with a single scale or two being imperfect. You gotta look hard to even find them. I have one absolutely perfect male. But I also have one female with badly split scales in her heart region. She will never get bred and was essentially gifted to me.
I am eternally grateful I purchased the group I have. With so few breeding adults in the captive gene pool, I suspect the situation has gotten worse since I bought my most recent one in 2013. I feel for your friend and hope she is able to locate some perfect scaled babies. But it is not easy.