Inquiry: Dachiu

[puppytoes72]

i agree,lets halt this momentarily.

 

[Cat_72]

Agreed, Jim. The evidence so far would suggest that most AV positive dragons can reproduce, and have healthy lives.

Just because they CAN reproduce, does that mean they SHOULD?

Let's just say, hypothetically, that these carriers "only" produce 1 in 5 babies that end up dying from the virus...only after living a fairly miserable life. Is that then OK, since the other 4 appear OK....and go on to produce their 1 in 5?

It keeps being said that such a high percentage of dragons tested have been positive, so we can assume from those results that most dragons have it....have you stopped to think about who has actually tested the dragons, up until now? It's not the average owner, or small time breeder, it was those who either were having problems, suspected they had the virus, or knew what was going on when Ron Wood had all of the die offs, but those people chose not to let the "general public" in on that bit of information.

I can't help but wonder how much of an impact these big breeders COULD have had on the impact of this virus if they would have put an effort into stopping it when it was first becoming noticed, instead of going on with business as usual.....

And as for Vickie's "disclaimer"....the average Joe knows little about Adeno. If they were to look to buy a dragon from Vickie, and ask her about it, and she gave them the standard, "Oh, all dragons probably have it, it's no big deal" answer, what are the odds that they are going to put out the money to have their dragons tested for it within that 6 week period? Misleading indeed.

 

[shrap]

If and when more is ever known it may matter more, but at this point, no matter who the source, I would consider any dragon that I bought to be carrying AV, even if it came from someone claiming to have a negative colony.

Exactly Jim. Until more is known about Adeno dont you think it is right to try and contain, or at the very least be as up front as humanly possible about whether the dragons you are selling are clean or not?

Sure people can lie, but people can also send an empty box instead of a 2000 dollar snake. That again falls back on buying only from trusted sources. Which is something we all preach on this board. Is it not?

 

[jsrocket]

Just because they CAN reproduce, does that mean they SHOULD?

Let's just say, hypothetically, that these carriers "only" produce 1 in 5 babies that end up dying from the virus...only after living a fairly miserable life. Is that then OK, since the other 4 appear OK....and go on to produce their 1 in 5?

It keeps being said that such a high percentage of dragons tested have been positive, so we can assume from those results that most dragons have it....have you stopped to think about who has actually tested the dragons, up until now? It's not the average owner, or small time breeder, it was those who either were having problems, suspected they had the virus, or knew what was going on when Ron Wood had all of the die offs, but those people chose not to let the "general public" in on that bit of information.

I can't help but wonder how much of an impact these big breeders COULD have had on the impact of this virus if they would have put an effort into stopping it when it was first becoming noticed, instead of going on with business as usual.....

And as for Vickie's "disclaimer"....the average Joe knows little about Adeno. If they were to look to buy a dragon from Vickie, and ask her about it, and she gave them the standard, "Oh, all dragons probably have it, it's no big deal" answer, what are the odds that they are going to put out the money to have their dragons tested for it within that 6 week period? Misleading indeed.

Cathy, I don't know the answer to that question, and neither do you.

 

[walker75]

I asked Jimd post216

It was a queston Jim D ...

Now another question if you are her distributor when was the last shipment or when will there be a shipment ?

When they hatch out ? The strongest ones ? The ones that where breed with out testing for the Virus ? All questions

The ones that LOOK healthy and big? Another question?

Or will she now test and take other actions or continue to do business as usual.

OR

Move on to another markets as in exporting to Canada then the UK or around the WORLD IT is possible again a good question ??

Again another question how many dragons does Dachiu hatch out a year?

Sandfire stated his to be around 9,0000 plus what he buys to sell when not producing.

Again all questions to be or should be answered?

Jim D replied post#218

Walker75
Ill answer in order of your questions.
Last year and we are not sure.
probably not, probably,not sure,
good chance.
Do you know if THEY, not her just for clarification, test? I do!
They have a good market there. Were just lucky to be able to get some.
I dont know how many they hatch out each year.
If I can answer any more, feel free to ask. I have no problem taking calls.
Jim


Vicki said it was none of my business

 

[varnyard]

Again another question how many dragons does Dachiu hatch out a year?

I was told by her, 4000 last year.

Lets see what Cheri posts, it is worth the wait.

 

[Cat_72]

Cathy, I don't know the answer to that question, and neither do you.

Which question? I asked several.

 

[jsrocket]

Which question? I asked several.

Don't play that game. You will lose.

 

[Cat_72]

Jim, it was an honest question....seriously.

 

[jsrocket]

OK, let's take 1 at a time. First?

 

[CheriS]

Vicki was aware in 2002 that many dragons were adenovirus infected and dying with it or sick and not thriving, that was CONFIRMED by a vet in MO. There is a post on my site from that time of a girl that had been dealing with this in 8 clutches and her name is Suzanne

I know Vicki was aware of this as it was me who told her and that was in 2002, discussed again in 2003 at which time her and Rob both told me that it was not a problem as all dragons had this and to not worry. I know was not true as I had liver slides made of one of mine(at the time PRC or EM was not available, the only way to test was by biopsy and it did not show any adenovirus or markers for it. I later had the lab pull those slides and check them again to be sure and specifically asked about adenovirus and was told they showed no signs or markers that are associated with adenovirus, so no, not all dragons had this.

We started collecting simple tracking data of dragons that were sick, dying or not thriving and it was attributed to adenovirus in 2002, there were post on this every year on KS and I remember that VIcki always Emailed me when anything was posted by me about this.

Later, and this I think was in August 2003, I found out that she was saying many negative things about a vets who had done a report on adenovirus. That study was based on the dragons of the girl I mentioned above and that many people are familiar with, her dragons were used to do the only time observation study to date that has been done by a professional, Dr Dan Wentz. That is the study that Vicki has so many negative comments about. A copy of that report is on my website and was presented to peers at a herpetological symposium in St Louis, I think it was in 2002 and put on my site in 2003, I have to check that yet.

I did not understand why she was so against this Dr's report or saying that adenovirus was nothing to worry about, when more owners were reporting dragons and colonies affected (sick or dying) by this, until I talked to the girl that was the owner of these dragons and found out they came from a breeder in Florida and realized it was the same breeder that Vicki had told me MANY of her breeders came from, from the same line and from the same time.

From the tracking, it was very easy to see those lines were Orange Glows RedFlames and German Giants with the early infected dragons mostly tracing back to the Florida Breeder or dragons that came from him and were later breed by others.

Suzanne's dragons from the study, were never in contact with any other dragons, so there is no question they came from the Florida breeder with a deadly strain of adenovirus or a strain that had the ability to become deadly. Many of her dragons when to Dr Wentz for further studies and it was from those that his report was done.

 

[Cat_72]

LOL, it would be easier if you tell me which one you were answering....again, not trying to be a smart .

 

[varnyard]

Thanks Cheri!!

It is sad, what else can I say?

I just don't understand how people can do these things.

 

[Stardust]

Thank you very much Cheri. I know that took time, it needed to be said and out in the open.

 

[Cat_72]

Thank you, Cheri.

Jim O, I is this an "anecdotal report"?

Now, let's go to 2006. I again bred Herbie and Tiger Lily. The first clutch started out fine. I also bred Clyde (positive for adeno) with Maggie. By her second clutch I started to lose babies at about 2 1/2 weeks. It then started to happen to my orange babies (which under the same conditions did fantastic the season before) at 6 weeks. After all of the deaths, it was split pretty evenly between babies that grew and appeared normal and babies that were EXTREMELY underweight and just tiny. All of my bins tested positive for adenovirus via fecal EM. I also had two necropsies performed that listed the cause of death as adenovirus in bearded dragons.

 

[varnyard]

I have a question, when they test a bin and it is positive, does that mean all the dragons in that bin are infected?

 

[CheriS]

Sorry, I accidentally submitted to early. Both Vicki and Rob told me this was so wide spread that " anyone with more than a few dragons have it in their colony, they were asked outright and they stated they felt they did have it also, but did not feel it was a problem, this I believe was in 2004 at Daytona,again stating they did not have a problem with their dragons even if they were positive for the virus. Many people have stated they have been told the same thing

I have also discussed with her about failing to thrive dragons (very small dragons) that come from them if they felt it was not a problem and Vicki claims she purposely breeds "petite" dragons as that is what people want.

When another breeder who had deaths in his adult breeders & colonywith sickly and failing to thrive babies last year, started selling those that has tested positive, he told me the reason he was selling them again AFTER promising me he would not, was that Rob and Vicki had told him at a show that weekend that they knew all large breeders had this, so it did not matter and if they appeared healthy it was okay to sell them. This is something that I have heard several times from others, and I did ask Vicki about this direct and she denied they ever said this to him.

The professionals to date have said that positive animals should not be breed or sold, until more studies can be done and they have said this for years now, they also say they feel at this time it is wide spread. My personal feeling is that it is now also, but that only came about the last 4-5 years due to what IMO is irresponsible breeders selling dragons they know are positive into so many other future breeders homes and not warning them.

 

[jsrocket]

Jim, it was an honest question....seriously.

Cathy, I like you, and no offense intended. On an internet forum, it is better to address one point at a time.

 

[Cat_72]

Understood, Jim.

 

[loteer]

Wes, months ago we obtained the animals from another (unknown) breeder who tested positive and placed them in a seperate facility to test/monitor.

After gaining more knowledge, we split a small group of fresh hatchlings and set them up also. They are positive tested now from our group. So to pick it apart, we have tested positive from 1 group of animals we produced and moved to the testing group.

We are not testing our breeders and/or babies we sell and that is posted on our web site. A can assure you that we are positive Wes. Everyone is looking for answers, but they wont be found in a single test.


Walker - Perhaps you need to make a call to Lou Ann. She stated that the number were from August to date and that she did not perform any tests in 2005.

i might be misreading this statement but i am a little confused. Did you isolate all the hatchlings that you pulled this small group from? Or did you just isolate the small group that was positive? if the later is the case did you sell the remaining babies?

Just curious because you state you do not test babies/ and or breeders you sell.

For the record i don't breed anything and i don't own any beardies.