Inquiry: Dachiu

[Jim O]

Jim O, I is this an "anecdotal report"?

Cathy, in science, anecdotal evidence can be defined as:

• information that is not based on facts or careful study
  
• non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts
  
• reports or observations of usually unscientific observers
  
• casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis
  
• information passed along by word-of-mouth but not documented scientifically

Anecdotal evidence can have varying degrees of formality. For instance, in medicine, published anecdotal evidence is called a case report, which is a more formalized type of evidence subjected to peer review. Although such evidence is not regarded as scientific, it is sometimes regarded as an invitation to more rigorous scientific study of the phenomenon in question. For instance, one study found that 35 of 47 anecdotal reports of side effects were later sustained as “clearly correct.”

Researchers may use anecdotal evidence for suggesting new hypotheses, but never as supporting evidence.

Source: Wikipedia

The information that you cited, by very definition is non-reviewed, experiential information. That's what is scientifically referred to as anecdotal not subjected to scientific analysis. That is not meant to diminish Wendy's loss or its impact to her, just an observation of its relevance. That is to say, it is one anecdotal report. It's a non-emotional term meant to identify it for what it is.

If a physician has a patient who recovered from an illness with a non-standard treatment, or even a series of such patients, and publishes this information, that is not proof. That is an anecdotal report. Even the "series" referred to by Cheri (which I believe is one that I read when this issue arose around Bruce at Sunshine Dragons) is still anecdotal.

When prospective, controlled, peer reviewed studies are done on adenovirus we will have information. Until then it is all supposition. Of course if what Cheri says about Vickie and Rob is true then it may well be that they have dirtier hands in spreading this than many of us knew.


Cheri, thank you for all the effort in putting this information together. I would like to hear if Vickie has anything to say regarding this information.

 

[Cat_72]

I would have thought necropsies were scientific information.

Silly me.

 

[Jim O]

I have a question, when they test a bin and it is positive, does that mean all the dragons in that bin are infected?

I would say that is a fair assumption given the likelihood of fecal-oral transmission.

Exactly Jim. Until more is known about Adeno dont you think it is right to try and contain, or at the very least be as up front as humanly possible about whether the dragons you are selling are clean or not?

In a perfect world, yes, of course. On the other hand, should trade in these animals be halted completely? That seems to be the only way to do just that at this point. I'm not saying yes or no, just posing the question.

 

[Jim O]

I would have thought necropsies were scientific information.

Silly me.

C'mon Cathy, no need to be snide here just because you don't like what I say. I never said necropsies weren't scientific. It is still just one case report. Not a controlled, peer reviewed study. That is an anecdotal report. Read the definition that I posted and don't pull out one word. Here's a relevant quote:

For instance, in medicine, published anecdotal evidence is called a case report, which is a more formalized type of evidence subjected to peer review. Although such evidence is not regarded as scientific, it is sometimes regarded as an invitation to more rigorous scientific study of the phenomenon in question.

So even when medical scientists publish this type of information with references it is still anecdotal.

 

[DaremoAlpha]

CheriS--- in your statements you use terms like "I think" and " I believe" in your time frames which tells me your unsure of exactly when things happenned. How much of a possible span would you say there is in each statement , a day or two , a month or two or maybe even upwards of a year??? I understand it was a long time ago and hell I have a really bad memory so I understand not giving exact dates but I am curious about how much margin of error you have given yourself.

Has anybody found out if there is a way to isolate the deadly strain for identifying, and if all or most dragons have this virus should that mean maybe ALL breeding should stop and we just let the species die off all together, I don't think so but I am curious to what others think because if there are alot of strains and only a couple killers then somebody in research really needs to earn the payday and get it figured out.

 

[JimD]

Bobby.
Can you show me where I say that Canada knows Im importing AV Pos dragons?
I doubt it seeing as all your info is a quote or made up.
Are you going to answer my question?
Jim.

 

[JimD]

CheriS.
I will put this here seeing as this is the place to be I guess.
If you want to put a link to what I said so people can see it that'd be great.
I made a comment pertaining to CheriS. I had no hard core proof of what I said. I made a bad judgement call in telling someone in private (wendy at Neverland dragons). No I do not know for 100% it is/was true.
I am not looking for anyones approval for saying sorry. It was something I said and no I'm not going to say that someone put me up to it like Bobby did.
I'm a grown man, make my own decisions. Unlike Bobby, I can accept that I MESSED UP ON MY OWN!
CheriS. Please accept my apology for saying something about you. I was in the wrong.
Jim Dyke
J&J Reptiles
The Dragons Tale.
Calgary Alberta Canada
1-403-273-4666
Bobby.....Id love to hear from you! Ill be happy to give you all my info so you can fuel your fire. Im here. Will be for a long time. Am happy to answer more questions even though others will not.

 

[JimD]

Shrap.
I got 4 bad karma hits for my pi$$ing comment.
To be honest, I wouldnt do it on anyone! You ever smell that when someone pi$$es on a fire? NASTY.
Jim.

 

[walker75]

Maybe just maybe he is kinda here to Protect the Dachiu's sorta kinda

You know deflect things people say... start other disagreements instead of

the problem of

The Dachiu's knowingly selling and spreading Adeno Positive Dragons when it has been told Not too.

Also I am wondering if any other breeder has Dachiu stock and was not told of this.

Seems that is very very deceitful and unethical to say the least.

 

[JimD]

If you are referring to what I just said to CheriS, I'm sure she will let you know Ive been trying to get ahold of her since she asked for an apology. As for defletion of attack on dachiu's, I'm sure they are more then capable of defending themselves.
Any other questions or comments before I leave for work? If not Ill be back in about 30 min.
Jim.

 

[shrap]

In a perfect world, yes, of course. On the other hand, should trade in these animals be halted completely? That seems to be the only way to do just that at this point. I'm not saying yes or no, just posing the question.

Jim, I did include, "until more is known about Adeno dont you think breeders/sellers should at least be up front as possible when selling beardies".

I mean if a snake has a kink in its back, and the breeder knows it, should they not be 100 percent up front about that before they sell it? Or any other deformation or illness? I really dont see where this is any different than the standards we already have in place and expect of honest reputable sellers.

 

[kmurphy]

Any other questions or comments before I leave for work? If not Ill be back in about 30 min

Canada sure has shortened the work day a bit.

 

[DaremoAlpha]

Hahaha I wish that was true Kevin but Jim is just lucky enough to have a computer at his store too ( kinda wish I had one in the truck I drive all day long)

 

[walker75]

If you are referring to what I just said to CheriS, I'm sure she will let you know Ive been trying to get ahold of her since she asked for an apology. As for defletion of attack on dachiu's, I'm sure they are more then capable of defending themselves.
Any other questions or comments before I leave for work? If not Ill be back in about 30 min.
Jim.

Jim

I was not referring to Just YOU

 

[kmurphy]

Jim, I did include, "until more is known about Adeno dont you think breeders/sellers should at least be up front as possible when selling beardies".

In a perfect world, yes. But will those that have tested negative guaranty the animals they sell are also negative. From reading these threads that seems impossible so why should the "honest" breeders be put at a dissadvantage when they are probably selling similar merchandise?

 

[shrap]

In a perfect world, yes. But will those that have tested negative guaranty the animals they sell are also negative. From reading these threads that seems impossible so why should the "honest" breeders be put at a dissadvantage when they are probably selling similar merchandise?

If you are advertising negative animals then yes they should be fully guaranteed to be negative. What is so impossible about that?

Are you saying the consumer dont have a right to know if a dragon in Adeno positive or not? That they shouldnt have the right to choose for themselves whether they want to purchase an Adeno positive dragon?

 

[shrap]

Kevin,

All I am asking is for people to be honest about the status of their animals? When did that become asking too much or only "in a perfect world"?

I guess only when it is asked of big breeders....

 

[Neverland Dragons]

CheriS.
I will put this here seeing as this is the place to be I guess.
If you want to put a link to what I said so people can see it that'd be great.
I made a comment pertaining to CheriS. I had no hard core proof of what I said. I made a bad judgement call in telling someone in private (wendy at Neverland dragons). No I do not know for 100% it is/was true.

I did address this on the other thread, but since you are bringing my name up I would like to say it again. The only reason that I ended up sharing this info with CheriS is because I was fairly certain that this was not just told to you, but to other people as well. I felt that Cheri had the right to set the record straight publicly. I did not go running to her saying "guess what I heard!" It came up in a conversation the next day and I did what I felt was the right thing to do. I do think that you were caught in the middle, but it was not my intention to share this with her from the beginning. I just wanted to tell you that it was not true, but it turned into something bigger.

 

[kmurphy]

If you are advertising negative animals then yes they should be fully guaranteed to be negative. What is so impossible about that?

Are you saying the consumer dont have a right to know if a dragon in Adeno positive or not? That they shouldnt have the right to choose for themselves whether they want to purchase an Adeno positive dragon?

First off I'll say that all I know about this subject is from the posts here. But I don't think someone would advertise negative animals only that their breeder's/facility was negative. If they actually have tested the animals that are being sold then anyone can guaranty them I suppose. Even the ones with positive breeders.

Certainly if given a choice I would purchase from virus free breeders but I'm enough of a sceptic to believe there aren't any. So from an industry standpoint why put some breeders behind the eight ball and others a free ride. Seems to me they are all in this together. Maybe they need some kind of association to deal with this.

 

[Denisebme]

CheriS--- in your statements you use terms like "I think" and " I believe" in your time frames which tells me your unsure of exactly when things happenned. How much of a possible span would you say there is in each statement , a day or two , a month or two or maybe even upwards of a year??? I understand it was a long time ago and hell I have a really bad memory so I understand not giving exact dates but I am curious about how much margin of error you have given yourself.

Has anybody found out if there is a way to isolate the deadly strain for identifying, and if all or most dragons have this virus should that mean maybe ALL breeding should stop and we just let the species die off all together, I don't think so but I am curious to what others think because if there are alot of strains and only a couple killers then somebody in research really needs to earn the payday and get it figured out.

So far, it appears that there is no way YET to differentiate among the different strains of AV.
I also don't believe there are a lot of strains, a few, yes.
The problem is that until there is a solid way to tell which strains are deadly and which are not, anything that tests positive is suspect, which is why I believe that said that "No BD that tests positive for this virus should be bred or sold". That's a much stronger statement than I'd be willing to make right now, but he's the expert.
This is what we know. There are breeders that have reported high clutch mortality rates and high rates of failure to thrive in their colonies as a result of AV.
We also know that people are purchasing dragons that get sick and get tested, and those results are coming back positive for AV.
We know we have the ability to act, right now, and maybe change the future.
We also know if breeders do NOT get on board, if it continues to be business as usual like there isn't a problem when we all know there is one, we may end up destroying our own industry, and quite simply, the animals don't deserve that.