Inquiry: Dachiu

[Wilomn]

Sorry I was short with you Cathy, it was past my bedtime, and I was cranky.

The truth is, nobody really knows if AV is a big deal, or not. Just because an AV positive dragon dies, does not automatically mean it died due to the virus.

SHOULD the large breeders have been more careful? Well, I simply don't know the answer to that, and to state an opinion on it would be nothing more than "Monday morning quarterbacking".

People who make a living breeding dragons are in business, and in business, you have to accept certain losses. While I agree 100% that the consumer has a right to all the facts, why in the world would a seller go out of his/her way to scare off a buyer, run expensive tests that don't guarantee accurate results, jack up the prices to cover the cost of said tests, and lose their competitive edge, for something that maybe kinda sorta might be a problem?

I am not defending the despicable behavior by some breeders, just trying to be objective.

Who knows where this whole issue will wind up? I am not willing to guess at this point.

One thing to keep in mind, is that viruses stay in business because of their miraculous ability to mutate, so what was fact last year might not be this year.

If someone wanted to diligently test all their dragons, and charge a high price for them, I say more power to them. I'm just not too sure how many they would be able to sell.

This is a little over the top so keep that in mind when you read.

Suppose you made brake pads for cars. You've been doing it a while and are gaining a name for yourself and making some decent cash.

Someone comes along and improves your process with new machinery. YOU, to stay competitive also get new machinery BUT now there is a higher percentage of substandard pads being produced. You can't really tell from looking ALL the time, but you can occasionally. The ones you can see you pull, the rest you just pass on down the line.

People are now dying due to faulty brake pads WHICH should never really have been allowed on the market as it was known that some normal appearing pads were, in fact, substandard and would not be up to previously adhered to and consistently advertised, even to this day.

What should have been done before the damage was done?

 

[Stardust]

If that is what people really think then I have to question why I bother coming here everyday and giving a piece of myself everyday for cause, a set of beliefs, that apparantly no one really believes in. Or that they just selectively apply

Sammy, I can not speak for others and I only speak for myself. There are times when I agree with you and times that I do not but even when I do not I still think about what you have said. Taking someone Else's thoughts and applying it to your own is building knowledge so therefore I would conclude that what you say, and all the thoughts of others are worth it, at least for those who want to continue furthering their knowledge.
I do not believe you are here chest thumping, you are here for the honesty factor among others. It says a lot of your character.

I do need to apologize to you for offering something and at the time not having my head totally clear of the facts, I recall all that is required now to know it was a mistake and one that I wouldn't in good conscience follow thru with.

 

[jsrocket]

This is a little over the top so keep that in mind when you read.

Suppose you made brake pads for cars. You've been doing it a while and are gaining a name for yourself and making some decent cash.

Someone comes along and improves your process with new machinery. YOU, to stay competitive also get new machinery BUT now there is a higher percentage of substandard pads being produced. You can't really tell from looking ALL the time, but you can occasionally. The ones you can see you pull, the rest you just pass on down the line.

People are now dying due to faulty brake pads WHICH should never really have been allowed on the market as it was known that some normal appearing pads were, in fact, substandard and would not be up to previously adhered to and consistently advertised, even to this day.

What should have been done before the damage was done?

Wes, that analogy doesn't work for me. Apples and oranges.

Ultimately, the answer is that said company should have stuck with the old way of doing things, and been forced out of business.

 

[CurtisF]

Jim,

You skipped right past the only thing I have been saying and turning it into something completely different. And that is that people should be honest in representing their animals when selling them. If you have positive breeders that should be made clear. If you have never tested, that should be made clear. If you have tested negative and stand behind those tests that should be made clear.

If me asking people to be honest in representing their animals and asking them not to say that having Adeno is perfectly fine when no one knows one way or the other at this point is considered chest thumping by you, then you aint the person I thought you were. Because I sure as hell aint here to thump my chest.

You know, one of the biggest draws to this site for me was that I always felt I was around a fair amount of like minded people that believed in a higher standard. Who believed in not only doing things the right way, but for the right reasons.

Now I have people here, many of the same people that I thought believed in a higher standard too, that I have the utmost respect for, making excuses for why people should NOT be honest and upfront about the animals they are selling.

I am shocked. I can not believe that asking people to be 100 percent honest in the representation of their animals is anything but a minimum requirement of all sellers.

I have people here who have been nothing but moral and just telling me that only in a "perfect world" should I be asking people to simply be honest about what they are selling. That I am "chest thumping".

If that is what people really think then I have to question why I bother coming here everyday and giving a piece of myself everyday for cause, a set of beliefs, that apparantly no one really believes in. Or that they just selectively apply.

I have never agreed with a post so wholeheartedly on Fauna, and though my post doesn't convey it, I know there are many people who agree as well.

You are not alone.

 

[KelliH]

So far, it appears that there is no way YET to differentiate among the different strains of AV.

Has it been clinically proven that there is more than one strain of AV in bearded dragons? I know there are different strains that seem to be species specific, but I did not realize there was more than one bearded strain. Of course, it's possible I missed the post dealing with this subject and if so I apologize in advance.

 

[varnyard]

Has it been clinically proven that there is more than one strain of AV in bearded dragons? I know there are different strains that seem to be species specific, but I did not realize there was more than one bearded strain. Of course, it's possible I missed the post dealing with this subject and if so I apologize in advance.

You are correct, there is only one proven strain.

 

[Wilomn]

I said it was over the top.

What I think they should have done is added a disclaimer such as:

We have found out that there is a virus present in many of the bearded dragons currently for sale including ours. We can not guarentee that ours are virus free. We do believe that in 90% of known cases there is no detriment to the carrier.

Should you purchase a lizard from us that turns out to not only be a carrier but dies from this virus we will....... replace at no charge, replace at 1/2 off, do nothing but want you to be aware of the possibilities.

That would have been the honest and ethical thing to do.

The game changed. Some of the players should have changed with it. The ones that didn't, some of them like vicki and rob and jimd, seem to lie a lot. Profit could account for that, but not 100%.

 

[Stardust]

Has it been clinically proven that there is more than one strain of AV in bearded dragons? I know there are different strains that seem to be species specific, but I did not realize there was more than one bearded strain. Of course, it's possible I missed the post dealing with this subject and if so I apologize in advance.

Kelli,
From what I have been able to gather, and there are plenty here much more knowledgable then I am, but they do not know for sure. There just is not enough people testing to make such conclusions. That is why I think it is so very important for the bigger breeders to start being active in this effort to find out more answers.

 

[jsrocket]

I said it was over the top.

What I think they should have done is added a disclaimer such as:

We have found out that there is a virus present in many of the bearded dragons currently for sale including ours. We can not guarentee that ours are virus free. We do believe that in 90% of known cases there is no detriment to the carrier.

Should you purchase a lizard from us that turns out to not only be a carrier but dies from this virus we will....... replace at no charge, replace at 1/2 off, do nothing but want you to be aware of the possibilities.

That would have been the honest and ethical thing to do.

100% agreed.

 

[Stardust]

I said it was over the top.

What I think they should have done is added a disclaimer such as:

We have found out that there is a virus present in many of the bearded dragons currently for sale including ours. We can not guarentee that ours are virus free. We do believe that in 90% of known cases there is no detriment to the carrier.

Should you purchase a lizard from us that turns out to not only be a carrier but dies from this virus we will....... replace at no charge, replace at 1/2 off, do nothing but want you to be aware of the possibilities.

That would have been the honest and ethical thing to do.

The game changed. Some of the players should have changed with it. The ones that didn't, some of them like vicki and rob and jimd, seem to lie a lot. Profit could account for that, but not 100%.

That is an extremely good post

 

[shadi11]

Kelli,
From what I have been able to gather, and there are plenty here much more knowledgable then I am, but they do not know for sure. There just is not enough people testing to make such conclusions. That is why I think it is so very important for the bigger breeders to start being active in this effort to find out more answers.

From my reasearch and reading and experiences in my own home. There does seem to be more than one strain of the virus. But this is yet to be proven. More research needs to be done to determine if there is strains that are not harmful or if they all are harmful. Or if theres just one and for some reason each dragon has different symptoms.. I have 5 positives and each one displays different symptoms or no symptoms depending on the dragon. And Have discussed with others that have known positives. some symptoms match and they may have different as one.
Researchers are assuming there may be different ones. But until this is proven we do not know.

 

[Jim O]

Jim,

You skipped right past the only thing I have been saying and turning it into something completely different. And that is that people should be honest in representing their animals when selling them. If you have positive breeders that should be made clear. If you have never tested, that should be made clear. If you have tested negative and stand behind those tests that should be made clear.

If me asking people to be honest in representing their animals and asking them not to say that having Adeno is perfectly fine when no one knows one way or the other at this point is considered chest thumping by you, then you aint the person I thought you were. Because I sure as hell aint here to thump my chest.

You know, one of the biggest draws to this site for me was that I always felt I was around a fair amount of like minded people that believed in a higher standard. Who believed in not only doing things the right way, but for the right reasons.

Now I have people here, many of the same people that I thought believed in a higher standard too, that I have the utmost respect for, making excuses for why people should NOT be honest and upfront about the animals they are selling.

I am shocked. I can not believe that asking people to be 100 percent honest in the representation of their animals is anything but a minimum requirement of all sellers.

I have people here who have been nothing but moral and just telling me that only in a "perfect world" should I be asking people to simply be honest about what they are selling. That I am "chest thumping".

If that is what people really think then I have to question why I bother coming here everyday and giving a piece of myself everyday for cause, a set of beliefs, that apparantly no one really believes in. Or that they just selectively apply.

Those are some tough words Sammy. My "chest thumping" comment was not directed at you.

Most of my comments have been about this issue in general, not this vendor. I never disagreed with you about honesty and integrity. I simply am not convinced one way or the other that this issue is where we draw a line in the sand between reasonable business practices and lack of those traits, in general. Does Coca Cola publicize how much rat feces are present on their cans in ppm? Of course they don't, but they damn well know the number. What about Nabisco - do you think they publicize how much rat hair is in Oreos? You bet they don't. Again, I'm not speaking about this particular business as I am awaiting their response to what Cheri said. I won't tie a noose with the mob until I have heard that. Silence may be the only response, and to me that would be deafening. But it's only been a few hours and some people need more time than that to cool their heads. That's my point, it's been my point along. In a perfect world people would also know what significance to attach to adenovirus positive dragons. But no one does, not you, not I, not Wes, not Vickie, not Bobby, not Cheri, and not even Dr. Wendt. So yes, in a perfect world people could have all of the answers. Knowingly selling positive animals as negative is reprehensible. Selling untested babies as such and informing the consumer that your best guess is that they are all positive is not exactly lying. Not testing any of your adult animals because you don't want to know seems as curious to me as it does to you. You've posed that question to Vickie twice and she has twice not answered. She needs to give an honest answer to that one in order to even partially redeem herself.

But in answer to your basic question, is asking for 100% honesty in a business transaction asking too much then the answer is of course not. If I conveyed anything less than that then I apologize.

Wes, I'm a chest thumper too. It's just that there is a time when it might make a difference. To use a different cliche, this horse is long out of the barn and it ain't coming back.

I said it was over the top.

What I think they should have done is added a disclaimer such as:

We have found out that there is a virus present in many of the bearded dragons currently for sale including ours. We can not guarentee that ours are virus free. We do believe that in 90% of known cases there is no detriment to the carrier.

Should you purchase a lizard from us that turns out to not only be a carrier but dies from this virus we will....... replace at no charge, replace at 1/2 off, do nothing but want you to be aware of the possibilities.

That would have been the honest and ethical thing to do.

The game changed. Some of the players should have changed with it. The ones that didn't, some of them like vicki and rob and jimd, seem to lie a lot. Profit could account for that, but not 100%.

A very reasonable approach, and one which would likely have cost them no business.

 

[KelliH]

You are correct, there is only one proven strain.

Thanks, Bobby!

Kelli,
From what I have been able to gather, and there are plenty here much more knowledgable then I am, but they do not know for sure. There just is not enough people testing to make such conclusions. That is why I think it is so very important for the bigger breeders to start being active in this effort to find out more answers.

I agree that there should be more research done, and that the "big" breeders should contribute to this effort.

What I think they should have done is added a disclaimer such as:

We have found out that there is a virus present in many of the bearded dragons currently for sale including ours. We can not guarentee that ours are virus free. We do believe that in 90% of known cases there is no detriment to the carrier.

Should you purchase a lizard from us that turns out to not only be a carrier but dies from this virus we will....... replace at no charge, replace at 1/2 off, do nothing but want you to be aware of the possibilities.

I agree that the above posted on their website would be much more appropriate. No matter what the customers need to be informed of this. I would be steaming mad had I purchased a dragon and later found out the breeder knew there was a good chance it was AV positive and neglected to mention it to me. That's just wrong, I, as a customer, have the right to know!

What of all the other "big" breeders ala Sandfire? Will they be called out on this as well?

 

[Denisebme]

Sorry I was short with you Cathy, it was past my bedtime, and I was cranky.

The truth is, nobody really knows if AV is a big deal, or not. Just because an AV positive dragon dies, does not automatically mean it died due to the virus.

SHOULD the large breeders have been more careful? Well, I simply don't know the answer to that, and to state an opinion on it would be nothing more than "Monday morning quarterbacking".

People who make a living breeding dragons are in business, and in business, you have to accept certain losses. While I agree 100% that the consumer has a right to all the facts, why in the world would a seller go out of his/her way to scare off a buyer, run expensive tests that don't guarantee accurate results, jack up the prices to cover the cost of said tests, and lose their competitive edge, for something that maybe kinda sorta might be a problem?

I am not defending the despicable behavior by some breeders, just trying to be objective.

Who knows where this whole issue will wind up? I am not willing to guess at this point.

One thing to keep in mind, is that viruses stay in business because of their miraculous ability to mutate, so what was fact last year might not be this year.

If someone wanted to diligently test all their dragons, and charge a high price for them, I say more power to them. I'm just not too sure how many they would be able to sell.

There are people who have had babies die, and through necropsy, those deaths were absolutely attributed to AV.
We also know that blood alone testing wouldn't help us much at this point, because according to people that know a heck of a lot more about this than I do, by the time the dragon was THAT infected, it would be deathly ill. That statement says a lot.
According to Dr. Jacobson's letter on this issue, AV can cause liver damage and death, among other, less "serious" things like failure to thrive.

I look at it this way, as a whole breeders have two choices here, get educated on the whole issue, including the EXACT status of your own colony, or accept this virus as inevitable and do nothing. Honesty isn't optional, people have the right to ask the questions and get answers. No matter where you stand, people are going to look at us to see what we're doing to make decisions about what they should do. If we look like we're not taking it seriously, not testing, not educating, they aren't going to take it seriously.

 

[puppytoes72]

Those are some tough words Sammy. My "chest thumping" comment was not directed at you.

Most of my comments have been about this issue in general, not this vendor. I never disagreed with you about honesty and integrity. I simply am not convinced one way or the other that this issue is where we draw a line in the sand between reasonable business practices and lack of those traits, in general. Does Coca Cola publicize how much rat feces are present on their cans in ppm? Of course they don't, but they damn well know the number. What about Nabisco - do you think they publicize how much rat hair is in Oreos? You bet they don't. Again, I'm not speaking about this particular business as I am awaiting their response to what Cheri said. I won't tie a noose with the mob until I have heard that. Silence may be the only response, and to me that would be deafening. But it's only been a few hours and some people need more time than that to cool their heads. That's my point, it's been my point along. In a perfect world people would also know what significance to attach to adenovirus positive dragons. But no one does, not you, not I, not Wes, not Vickie, not Bobby, not Cheri, and not even Dr. Wendt. So yes, in a perfect world people could have all of the answers. Knowingly selling positive animals as negative is reprehensible. Selling untested babies as such and informing the consumer that your best guess is that they are all positive is not exactly lying. Not testing any of your adult animals because you don't want to know seems as curious to me as it does to you. You've posed that question to Vickie twice and she has twice not answered. She needs to give an honest answer to that one in order to even partially redeem herself.

But in answer to your basic question, is asking for 100% honesty in a business transaction asking too much then the answer is of course not. If I conveyed anything less than that then I apologize.

Wes, I'm a chest thumper too. It's just that there is a time when it might make a difference. To use a different cliche, this horse is long out of the barn and it ain't coming back.

A very reasonable approach, and one which would likely have cost them no business.

honesty is the best policy.vicky really does need to answer that question.

 

[varnyard]

Jim O: Not testing any of your adult animals because you don't want to know seems as curious to me as it does to you. You've posed that question to Vickie twice and she has twice not answered. She needs to give an honest answer to that one in order to even partially redeem herself.

I agree with this 100% on this part!! I will also ask, in doing such, would it be a scam? IMO, Is this what honest hobbyist do? I would expect this from someone like Chris Johnson who was in it for the money, how is she be any better than him? Hell, for that matter any scammer that misrepresents their reptiles?

 

[puppytoes72]

Thanks, Bobby!



I agree that there should be more research done, and that the "big" breeders should contribute to this effort.



I agree that the above posted on their website would be much more appropriate. No matter what the customers need to be informed of this. I would be steaming mad had I purchased a dragon and later found out the breeder knew there was a good chance it was AV positive and neglected to mention it to me. That's just wrong, I, as a customer, have the right to know!

What of all the other "big" breeders ala Sandfire? Will they be called out on this as well?

i did call sandfire out on it a few threads down.my beardie has adeno and she came from sandfire via petco.i spoke to sandfire on the phone and kevin dunn thinks its nothing to worry about(rolling my eyes)they also claim that they are sure they pretty sure they have adeno but will not test and still does not warn ppl of it on their website

 

[Stardust]

What of all the other "big" breeders ala Sandfire? Will they be called out on this as well?

From what I know Sandfire is the biggest producer of beardies in the US.
I have not done business with them or own a dragon that came directly from them, I can only speak from the experience I have from who I have bought from.
IMO, Sandfire should be putting up testing as well as educating the public.

 

[varnyard]

i did call sandfire out on it a few threads down.my beardie has adeno and she came from sandfire via petco.i spoke to sandfire on the phone and kevin dunn thinks its nothing to worry about(rolling my eyes)they also claim that they are sure they pretty sure they have adeno but will not test and still does not warn ppl of it on their website

As much as hate to say it, I must agree, I talked with Kevin, He told me many of the same things.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Would any of the people who have lost animals to this disease be willing to post, or email to someone neutral, numbers of fatalities, numbers of positive testing animals, and numbers of entire collection or colony?

Everyone keeps talking about what a killer this disease is, and while I'm not arguing that animal have died from it, I'd like to see at least a rough baseline lethality percentage. That would give us a much better idea of what we're dealing with.


Even if it is anecdotal JimO

Currently in our collection, we have 14 dragons. Of those dragons, 10 have been tested for Adenovirus, and as I stated earlier, there's some discrepancy as to Aphrodite's results. If she's positive for Adenovirus, we have 8 positives, 2 negatives. If she is, in fact, negative, we have 7 positives, 3 negatives.

The clutch that made us aware of the issues we were having was Annie x Ari. Again, neither parent has been tested for Adenovirus as we no longer own them.

I'm going strictly off of memory here because I can't figure out what the hubby did with the "birth records" we keep for all the clutches. But if memory serves me, I believe Annie laid 2 clutches of around 20 eggs each. Of those 40, we lost quite a few in incubation (around 1/4 of each clutch if I remember correctly), but I don't remember the exact number without being able to look at my records. Once those eggs hatched, I lost count at 9 babies dying, and I won't even make a guess at how many it was in all.

Of those that survived, there were what appeared to be extremely healthy babies with normal growth rates. But there were also several that have some serious non-thriving issues. This picture just about says it all. Both of these dragons hatched the same day (October 31, 2006), and this picture was taken in a couple of months ago. The tiny ones are now around 8" long.

Now, when we had the necropsy done on a few of the babies that had died, there were several issues. First, because we were in the process of collecting fecal samples for the EM testing and that was so the virus would be preserved if present, as the babies would die, I would put them in the freezer to preserve them. I didn't know they should have only been refrigerated.

Second, I had contacted the local lab here to see if they could do the fecal EM testing, and was told no because they don't have the proper equipment. It is now my understanding that the same equipment required for the EM fecal testing is also required to find Adenovirus in necropsy. Third, it is my understanding that the virus, to date, is very difficult to detect at this young age (they were 3 weeks old) because it hasn't had time to damage the organs.

Cheri is the one who explained to me that just because it wasn't picked up in the necropsy doesn't mean it wasn't there. So Cheri, if I understood that incorrectly, please correct me.

The necropsy states that they died from bacterial infection, but that the lab was not able to identify that bacteria.

Two of the babies from this crossing later tested positive for Adenovirus by fecal EM testing.