Inquiry: Dachiu

[whiskersmom]

I am sitting here just starting to read this thread and the first thing that comes to mind is another witch hunt. First it was Sunshine, then Sandfire, now Dachiu...if this isn't a witch hunt I don't know what is...it is getting rediculous. I have dragons from all these breeders...so basically you are saying my entire colony is infected? I have done little testing because for me it isn't cheap...it runs about $85 a whack. Until someone comes up with a definate yes or no with these tests, I am not testing any farther unless I have a problem, to which I have not so far. I suppose myself or one of the other breeders will be next to be accused and have fingers pointed at....PAH...LEASE...Unless one of you have some magic test that will tell me all my dragons are a definate yes or no...give it a rest!!!

This certain BOI on Dachiu is a spin off of Denise Latanzi's BOI that was created, in essence, by Vickie Dachiu. So, you could say that the witch hunt started on Denise....so if it so happens that now that Vickie has been proven to be less then ethical, then it's only fair that Vickie also should get her own BOI! Right?

Were you this incensed when the witch hunt's target was Denise?

 

[Denisebme]

But on what personal level does a person have to go to in order to try to destroy someone's reputation? What harm could you have possibly committed towards the Dachiu's for them to want to destroy you, your small business? Was it only because she saw you as a threat because of your negative results? So, she knew she had to discredit you in order for her business to stay successful?
I guess, Denise, you could see this as a complement, that if you were that threatening as a business competetor, for her to use all this effort and lies to bring you down, you must have been a force to be reckoned with, in her eyes.

Until this happened I didn't know the Dachiu's at all, and they certainly didn't know me. There was no reason and no excuse for what happened.
In my "real", every day life, I work as a consultant for nonprofit organizations. It's a fairly competitive field, but no one has ever lied about me in order to steal one of my clients or injure my business. We all know each other, refer work to each other, and we've even been known to work together if a job was to big or the needs of the organization were so large it couldn't be handled by one person. Call me silly, but I thought this issue could be handled the same way
I still think that it was probably worth it. Even if in the end, AV is out of our control, at least we all know the kind of people we're dealing with, both good and bad.

 

[Denisebme]

Denise, in talking to you in private and seeing what you write here I can tell you are as passionate about your babies as I am mine. If mine test pos I will not breed at all and they will remain, until the day they pass my families pets. Even if tested neg, until more is found out about this I still don't think I will breed. It is just not worth the risk to me.
Meet Fred, now tell me, what is not to love about this guy?

Oh he's absolutely gorgeous! What a pretty, pretty boy!
I'll get some pictures up in the beardie thread of my loves in the next day or so.

 

[Iguanalady]

This certain BOI on Dachiu is a spin off of Denise Latanzi's BOI that was created, in essence, by Vickie Dachiu. So, you could say that the witch hunt started on Denise....so if it so happens that now that Vickie has been proven to be less then ethical, then it's only fair that Vickie also should get her own BOI! Right?

Were you this incensed when the witch hunt's target was Denise?

So basically you are saying "since someone hit me, I am going to hit them back"???? Sounds more like revenge and a problem between two people...what are we in high school again? So what if they don't like each other or don't agree with each other, is that a reason to go back and forth with all this crap...is it a matter of business or a matter of just because someone doesn't like me I am going to get even?...These threads are becoming reduntant. Same stuff just a different title and a different victum. I didn't agree with the way people attacked Denise either, nor Sandfire and now nor Dachiu. I have nothing to gain here, I am not pissed at any party involved. It in my opinion is getting old.

 

[CheriS]

Yeah, there probably is a slim chance but you have to admit it's a mighty slim chance. Just go check out many of the dragon breeder's collection pages on their websites and look at the lineage of their dragons and/or where they were produced for a start.

This is a good statement, remember, there are small time breeders and mom and pop type colonies out there, that never heard of some of these lines, breeders etc and have been breeding with long established stock.

Some people might like to check those out

 

[whiskersmom]

So basically you are saying "since someone hit me, I am going to hit them back"???? Sounds more like revenge and a problem between two people...what are we in high school again? So what if they don't like each other or don't agree with each other, is that a reason to go back and forth with all this crap...is it a matter of business or a matter of just because someone doesn't like me I am going to get even?...These threads are becoming reduntant. Same stuff just a different title and a different victum. I didn't agree with the way people attacked Denise either, nor Sandfire and now nor Dachiu. I have nothing to gain here, I am not pissed at any party involved. It in my opinion is getting old.

I don't think this is sophmoric at all....I think people have asked questions that could be answered and they're just not getting them. They just haven't given up yet, and I can't blame them for that. There are alot of things that Vickie needs to answer and not to just Denise. This is concerning a bearded dragon breeding community and it really concerns us all....not just two people. We all have a stake in this.
If questions were answered then you would see alot less going back and forth. But it looks like questions will not be answered anytime soon.

 

[Iguanalady]

I don't think this is sophmoric at all....I think people have asked questions that could be answered and they're just not getting them. They just haven't given up yet, and I can't blame them for that. There are alot of things that Vickie needs to answer and not to just Denise. This is concerning a bearded dragon breeding community and it really concerns us all....not just two people. We all have a stake in this.
If questions were answered then you would see alot less going back and forth. But it looks like questions will not be answered anytime soon.

Absolutely....I don't think it is the breeders that are at fault, it is more the researchers that we need to concentrate on. If enough of us would contribute and keep the subject alive, I beleive we would get more answers. This is the reason alot of breeders including myself are not testing, there are no definates and it seems a big waste of money at this point. I am glad that Denise (denisebme) is sorting out her positive dragons but that still doesn't mean she won't have postive babies. There just isn't enough known about adeno and that is what is causing the panic and the finger pointing.

 

[Denisebme]

Absolutely....I don't think it is the breeders that are at fault, it is more the researchers that we need to concentrate on. If enough of us would contribute and keep the subject alive, I beleive we would get more answers. This is the reason alot of breeders including myself are not testing, there are no definates and it seems a big waste of money at this point. I am glad that Denise (denisebme) is sorting out her positive dragons but that still doesn't mean she won't have postive babies. There just isn't enough known about adeno and that is what is causing the panic and the finger pointing.

You're absolutely right about that. The only way to know for sure is to test the babies. Believe me, I mean no disrespect at all, but I really think we have to try our hardest to produce negative babies right now.
Think about what it could mean if we could produce even a handful of completely negative colonies, even for just the research potential.

 

[KelliH]

This is a good statement, remember, there are small time breeders and mom and pop type colonies out there, that never heard of some of these lines, breeders etc and have been breeding with long established stock.

Some people might like to check those out

Agreed 100%. I hope that negative colonies can be established. But what of all the positive dragons out there? What should become of those? Should these breeders shut down? What is the solution?

 

[Iguanalady]

Agreed 100%. I hope that negative colonies can be established. But what of all the positive dragons out there? What should become of those? Should these breeders shut down? What is the solution?

Shutting down large breeders is not the answer and it isn't going to stop the problem. The only way to stop the problem is research...The testing they are doing now is not absolute. And like I said before...great, if we can have a negative colony but that still doesn't mean the babies will be negative either, or that postive parents won't produce negative babies. Until the day comes that research produces a definate yes or no testing there is going to be adeno dragons out there, no matter what we do.

 

[Denisebme]

Agreed 100%. I hope that negative colonies can be established. But what of all the positive dragons out there? What should become of those? Should these breeders shut down? What is the solution?

It's a tough question. Personally, I support simple honesty. Let people know what's going on and let them make an educated decision for themselves. When these recent threads got started back in September or October, it was really difficult to find information. Now if you do a search on the net, you get tons of information, including a lot of links back to the fauna boards.
Personally, I still have an issue with what happens to people who buy an animal without knowing anything about AV, and then maybe down the road they end up with AV related issues. Who bears the responsibility for the future of these animals? I believe that as a breeder, that's a question I have to ask myself seriously if another of my animals tests positive, and I know my answer. I'm responsible for my dragons and the dragons I produce, and person just trying to buy a pet is not expected to have the same level of knowledge, so the responsibility in the end lies with me.
I know not everyone agrees with me, but its my face I have to look at in the mirror every day...........

 

[Denisebme]

Shutting down large breeders is not the answer and it isn't going to stop the problem. The only way to stop the problem is research...The testing they are doing now is not absolute. And like I said before...great, if we can have a negative colony but that still doesn't mean the babies will be negative either, or that postive parents won't produce negative babies. Until the day comes that research produces a definate yes or no testing there is going to be adeno dragons out there, no matter what we do.

I don't know anyone who is talking about shutting down large breeders. What I've heard is people talking about acting honestly and ethically. If you breed positive dragons, inform your customers. Most people buying pets probably won't care, but it offers them a heads of if their animal starts having health issues later.
If you breed without testing, inform your customers. Leave the option of testing up to them, but make sure they come away aware.
Even people who breed animals that test negative have a responsibility to inform their customers. Most of us produce care sheets where we touch on potential issues, this is a big one.
In the end, the tests that are available are simply better than no testing at all, because knowledge is always better than the alternatives. More people testing means a bigger pool of information for the researchers and more information for the rest of us. So few animals have been tested so far, what if the numbers change with additional testing?

 

[Iguanalady]

I don't know anyone who is talking about shutting down large breeders. What I've heard is people talking about acting honestly and ethically. If you breed positive dragons, inform your customers. Most people buying pets probably won't care, but it offers them a heads of if their animal starts having health issues later.
If you breed without testing, inform your customers. Leave the option of testing up to them, but make sure they come away aware.
Even people who breed animals that test negative have a responsibility to inform their customers. Most of us produce care sheets where we touch on potential issues, this is a big one.
In the end, the tests that are available are simply better than no testing at all, because knowledge is always better than the alternatives. More people testing means a bigger pool of information for the researchers and more information for the rest of us. So few animals have been tested so far, what if the numbers change with additional testing?

You see, the point I am trying to make is....okay, you sell a negative tested baby, then a few months later that same dragon tests positive. This is the point I am trying to make. We have no definate, it really doesn't matter whether we test or not....the same negative dragon can be positive and visa versa. I made my choice on the issue with my dragons. Unless I see that I may have problems in my colony, I am not going to test. When people ask me if I have tested I tell them I have not. I see no sense in continually testing a mote issue. The test is not accurate and it is not definate. We have to have something to work with and the tests that are out there now are not....So, if you go and with all good intentions sell a baby that is negative and later that same dragon comes back positive, is it you we should blame? Absolutely not, there is no definate and there is no guarentee so blaming the breeder is not a way to go either. It is a win/lose situation with no end in sight. I wish I could guarentee my dragons were adeno free. Even the most tested colonies can't either.

 

[whiskersmom]

You see, the point I am trying to make is....okay, you sell a negative tested baby, then a few months later that same dragon tests positive. This is the point I am trying to make. We have no definate, it really doesn't matter whether we test or not....the same negative dragon can be positive and visa versa. I made my choice on the issue with my dragons. Unless I see that I may have problems in my colony, I am not going to test. When people ask me if I have tested I tell them I have not. I see no sense in continually testing a mote issue. The test is not accurate and it is not definate. We have to have something to work with and the tests that are out there now are not....So, if you go and with all good intentions sell a baby that is negative and later that same dragon comes back positive, is it you we should blame? Absolutely not, there is no definate and there is no guarentee so blaming the breeder is not a way to go either. It is a win/lose situation with no end in sight. I wish I could guarentee my dragons were adeno free. Even the most tested colonies can't either.

The testings may not be perfect but it does pick up positives obviously, and if you have tested your breeders at least a few times and the results are negative, then no, I don't think the breeder could be blamed if later on the baby they sold turned out positive. At least this breeder tried. You have got to at least, try.
There is not enough known yet for anyone to assume that AV is in all dragons and that testing is moot, that we have no definite answers so therefore we don't have to test. I honestly now think that is the reason we are in this boat. If breeders would have honestly tried to find out which were positive and which were not and then breed accordingly back when they first made available the test, then the numbers would be lower. If everyone has the attitude that we don't have to test, because we just don't know enough or because the test itself isn't all that accurate then what some breeders are proposing, that all beardies have AV will become fact, not supposition. And that is wrong.
We keep talking about what breeders do and want....what about the consumer? I'm a consumer and I'm telling you that I don't want a beardie that's parents weren't tested.
I would not buy a beardie from you.....in fact, even if you gave me one, I wouldn't take take a beardie from you, at this point, because you believe it's alright to not test.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Vickie is right, the paper is a good read. Yes, the University of Florida states they feel that the majority of the U.S. dragon popultion has adenovirus. At this point, they are most likely correct. But, the U.S. dragon population is huge, and even a small percentage of clear animals can be a significant number. And the paper states:

"It is certainly tempting to give up and ignore this problem. At this point our best recommendation is testing and honesty, with the goal of establishing adenovirus-free colonies. If the decision is made to accept that your colony is infected, the ethical thing to do is to inform anyone accepting a lizard from your colony of the infection."

I am referring to Dachiu here because that is what this thread is about. Vickie has been talking about the release of this document for days. I am guessing that is because it does indeed state that they feel this is in the majority of the U.S. dragon population.

O.K. fair enough. It also reccomends testing, honesty and if a breeder chooses to accept that their colony is infected, they should inform people accepting (i.e. buying) dragons from their colony of the adenovirus infection.

In my opinion Vickie has failed miserably in all of these areas. She admitted she lied, has lied before and would probably lie again. She has plainly said she is not testing (even though there is some debate as to whether she is just saying that to cover her butt). If she chooses to accept that her colony is infected and chooses to not test, she needs to step up and do as Dr. Jacobson reccomends, and inform people that her colony has adenovirus in it.

Give the people purchasing your dragons the choice of whether or not to purchase an adenovirus positive dragon. It is flat out wrong to take that choice away from them. You can not reasonably expect people to accept that all dragons have adenovirus and then turn around and say it is o.k. to hide behind the veil of "we do not test." If you feel all dragons have it, then you need to step up and let the customers purchasing your dragons know that they are buying adenovirus positive dragons.

Honesty, ethics, testing and disclosure................Not too much to ask in my opinion.

 

[JimD]

CheriS.
Do you happen to know where someone could find these "Mom and Pop" breeders that may be AV free? Its been asked before but I dont think there has been an answer.
Thanks.
Jim.

 

[Valley Dragons]

Does anyone have a link to this paper so I can read it? Sorry if this link has already been posted...I skimmed over the last several pages but did not see anything. Is the best method for testing mentioned in this paper? I am confused about what is actually the most accurate way to test. I have not had any problems in my colony, but if it is recommended by the "experts" that I test - then I will do the responsible thing and test. I have breeding stock from many different breeders, a couple of them are from the "big breeders" mentioned over the last few days. If anyone remembers, I won a photo contest last October, and received a beautiful dragon from Dachiu. I quarantined her for the recommended 3 months, and she has shown absolutely no health issues. I fully integrated into my colony around the first of January, and she continues to grow, eat, poop, and act normally. I've had no issues with parasites or anything else. IF adenovirus is indeed a potential killer - and I have not made up my mind what to think about this whole situation yet - then I guess I let DEATH in my front door, so to speak. I am really, really hoping that this is not the case. I am not going to attack Vicky - she provided me with a beautiful, healthy dragon. That was all I asked for at the time. I see it as MY responsibility to make sure I protect my colony, and it was MY fault that I was not fully educated about the potential concerns of this virus. I would never claim that a Dachiu dragon infected my colony - because my guess is that the virus was already here. But - here's to hoping that I am one of the lucky ones if this virus is really as bad as some people think is is. The bottom line is that we have to take this issue into our own hands - and I hate to say this - but be very discriminating about who we trust when it comes to new stock, etc. Breeders should be willing to be completely open and honest about the state of their colony. I will definitely not be buying anymore breeding stock until I understand what is going on with this virus a little better. It makes me SICK to think that I could be putting my dragons at risk. To be honest, I can't comprehend at this point how ANY colony could be free from adenovirus, based on how many dragons are sold in this country every year from colonies that are indeed infected with adeno. And to add to the confusion, I have so many questions about the actual lethality and potential complications of adeno. Are we talking about a virus that is similar to HIV - where the animal will live, maybe for years - but always be sickly and need the best of care to even survive day to day? Or are we talking about a virus similar to herpes - where the symptoms will cause minor problems in an animal that gets run-down from other issues, but the virus itself rarely causes any major complications? Maybe reading this paper will help answer some questions for me. I am considering putting something on my website, but until I have more facts I am not sure even what to say. I guess I have a few weeks to figure this out before my first babies of the season hatch. I know that I will be keeping records of everyting that goes on in my colony for now on, and I will make sure that any potential customer is fully informed of this issue. I will also encourage my customers to keep their own records of any health issue in any dragon that I produce from now on. I encourage other breeders to do the same.

Jamie

 

[JimD]

Jamie.
Go to Dragon Discussion and its there.
Jim

 

[puppytoes72]

Vickie is right, the paper is a good read. Yes, the University of Florida states they feel that the majority of the U.S. dragon popultion has adenovirus. At this point, they are most likely correct. But, the U.S. dragon population is huge, and even a small percentage of clear animals can be a significant number. And the paper states:

"It is certainly tempting to give up and ignore this problem. At this point our best recommendation is testing and honesty, with the goal of establishing adenovirus-free colonies. If the decision is made to accept that your colony is infected, the ethical thing to do is to inform anyone accepting a lizard from your colony of the infection."

I am referring to Dachiu here because that is what this thread is about. Vickie has been talking about the release of this document for days. I am guessing that is because it does indeed state that they feel this is in the majority of the U.S. dragon population.

O.K. fair enough. It also reccomends testing, honesty and if a breeder chooses to accept that their colony is infected, they should inform people accepting (i.e. buying) dragons from their colony of the adenovirus infection.

In my opinion Vickie has failed miserably in all of these areas. She admitted she lied, has lied before and would probably lie again. She has plainly said she is not testing (even though there is some debate as to whether she is just saying that to cover her butt). If she chooses to accept that her colony is infected and chooses to not test, she needs to step up and do as Dr. Jacobson reccomends, and inform people that her colony has adenovirus in it.

Give the people purchasing your dragons the choice of whether or not to purchase an adenovirus positive dragon. It is flat out wrong to take that choice away from them. You can not reasonably expect people to accept that all dragons have adenovirus and then turn around and say it is o.k. to hide behind the veil of "we do not test." If you feel all dragons have it, then you need to step up and let the customers purchasing your dragons know that they are buying adenovirus positive dragons.

Honesty, ethics, testing and disclosure................Not too much to ask in my opinion.

 

[Valley Dragons]

Okay, I read the paper. It does help to answer many of my questions. Does anynone know the cost of the PCR testing?

Jamie