Inquiry: Dachiu

[shrap]

Oh and Vickie, I dont mean to single you out, I think all breeders large and small should add to the info pool for Dr. Jacobson and company. No one is saying that an entire colony and all offspring need to be tested, just a few dragons a year to help these researchers better understand what we are dealing with.

 

[Stardust]

Vicki,
Thank you very much for updating your website. It means a lot to me, the buyer, more then you know that you are moving in a positive and open action.
The picture I posted on here is Fred, the very first online purchase and it is a Dachiu dragon. So for me personally, it means a lot and the hurt I felt in losing faith in you.

 

[Dachiu]

Shrap - The test bins we set up in January are at the recommendation of the researchers, veterinarians and other breeders. In the future, we are planning to raise positives through a full cycle while monitoring their viral shedding. We are also looking into the other co-factors that could contribute to to failure. It's here - and we feel that it is how we deal with it that will make a difference.

Tere - This has been around for a long time... it is only occasionally that someone has an outbreak in their collection and it makes the press.

 

[shrap]

Thanks Vickie, I appreciate you addressing that and working with the researchers.

 

[Dachiu]

Hopefully the paper that Florida released will help us to understand we are all in the same boat.

Happy Easter everyone.

 

[Denisebme]

Denise,

I and others have been asking 1 direct question the whole time this has been going on and getting a run around. What lab produced your blood PCR results?

FYI - The lab the California Avian out-sources to does not and will not utilize blood as a sample for PCR to look for Agamid Atadenovirus 1. When I asked, she said "No, no... we wont find that there." They do however know exactly what I was referring to as they are the lab that Dr. Wagner used for his research for his upcoming presentation.

I've already stated quite clearly that if Cal Avian sent my tests somewhere else, I do not know, and neither did my vet as of last Wednesday, where that "other" place was. My vet did business with ONE lab and no one ever told me directly that it was anyone but THAT lab that handled my tests.
Now, since you seem perfectly capable of answering questions when you choose too, why don't you try answering the other questions I asked you.

 

[shadi11]

Wes

I have to disagree with you here. Whether or not it was vicki you got your dragon from, IF you had been told there was even the remotest possibility that it had AV, would you still have accepted that dragon? Or would you have said, thanks but no.

I thought I would answer your question.. Even though it wasnt addressed to me.. Would I have accepted a dragon if I won it that possibly had adeno.. No. I wouldnt not and will continue refuse to in the future. The tests may not be 100%but i rather take my chance of the dragons thats parents tested negative repeatedly and the baby tested negative.

I have a home of 5 dragons. That were going to be my small breeding colony.. Out of what i thought was responcibility I tested.. All are positive. some for dependo and adeno some just adeno.. I have some health problems some without.. Even though I have some health problems minus my one that didnt thrive as well as she should. I have 21-23 inch dragons.. All raised with optimal conditions. Yet I still have issues..
I think the responcible thing is to disclose information.. test.. There has to be some clear out there. I know of a couple that have tested clear in their tests so far. At least they are trying/

 

[Denisebme]

Speaking for myself, had it not been swept under the rug and passed off as not serious...and definitely not widespread, I would have tested much earlier than what I did.

I was always under the impression that Adenovirus was some small isolated event. Evidently, it is not...and it has been VERY well hidden until quite recently.

Exactly my impression in the beginning too. If not for Wendy at Neverland, none of these conversations would have taken place and most of us would still be in the dark.

 

[Iguanalady]

I guess it comes down to the individual breeder and how they choose to handle this. Personally, I have tested two of my dragons a few months ago with negative results. I will not be testing again unless I see there may be a problem in my colony. I want absolute results when I test. I don't want to have to spend hundreds of dollars testing when there are no absolutes. I can't afford it every three months. If I see a problem with die offs or continually ill adults then, I will test again. Right now all of my adults are healthy and robust. I have raised them all since babies and had no issues. I am not going to panic without reason and I think that is alot of what is going on here. Sure, I would like to add my 2 cents to the research possibilities but I will when I feel there is a need too. I disclose to my customers that I do not test and it is up to them whether they still want to purchase a dragon from me or not. Most do not care because they are looking for pets only. When I sell to breeders, I tell them I have not tested for AV and explain my reasons for not doing it. I have 30 beardies ranging in age of 6 weeks to 4 years old. Sorry but I don't have 10,000.00 a year for quarterly testing. I only have 8 breeders this year. I am not making the kind of money that would pay for this kind of research. What will the future bring for me and my little business? Who knows, maybe when I make a little more off of the dragons I can afford to do this from a research point of view. Right now though, it just isn't in the cards for me to realistically do this.

 

[Cat_72]

Who knows, maybe when I make a little more off of the dragons I can afford to do this from a research point of view.

IMO, this is THE reason that it has already gone as far as it has...I don't mean to single you out, but that sentence speaks volumes. Make money off the dragons, whether they are positive, negative, or otherwise....even though I am the one CHOOSING to breed them. If I find out later, after I have made the money, that I shouldn't have been breeding them, oh well.....

The whole thing is starting to make me sick. I believe this is where I throw my hands up and say that I want no part of this....I care too much about the animals to do it to them.

 

[varnyard]

Hopefully the paper that Florida released will help us to understand we are all in the same boat.

Happy Easter everyone.

I still have many doubts on the same boat theories, we are still looking at only a few % of dragons that have been tested by Florida. How many tests have they done? Even if they done 1000, which I highly doubt. That would still be only a few compared to how many dragons are living in the U.S. that have not been tested. How many dragons are there in the U.S. alone? IMO, it would be over 1,000,000, so the testing done by the University of Florida is only a real small amount of the over all numbers of dragons out there. IMO, to make a claim that all dragons have it only based a few % that have been tested would still leave much doubt. IMO, that would leave many that could be virus free, not just a few.

IMO, people need to test and let people know about the results. Only problem is, if they do test negative they will be attacked for sharing that information.

Just seems to me there are many unanswered questions Vickie.

 

[Dragondad]

The number of what FL test to the total population isnt the issue, you can make a statement of the nature they made when the vast majority of what you do test shows positive for the virus.

Now I think if people perform tests on the animals just to see if they are positive then the beardie community will greatly benefit from that knowledge. My guess is that the bulk of the tests to this point have been performed due to an illness or issue that has raised a reason to test.

The problem I see now is, not being attacked for having a neg test result, its the fact that the negative test doesnt prove to all end that the animal is negative for the virus. So your setting yourself up to test again, and again. Especially if you have tested via the EM route....

 

[shrap]

Personally, I would like to know how many different colonies the tests came from that Dr. Jacobson ran. If he tested 500 dragons from say 400 different colonies then the results would mean one thing..... if the 500 dragons tested came from say 25 different colonies then they could be looked at completely different. That is one thing in his test he never made clear.

 

[Iguanalady]

The whole thing is starting to make me sick. I believe this is where I throw my hands up and say that I want no part of this....I care too much about the animals to do it to them.

I have a job that pays me 12,000 a year, every dime I make off of my dragons goes back into feeding, cages, lighting and any other needs they may have. So, if you want to dish out the kind of money it would take to test every single dragon in my colony then by all means, send it my way. My dragons are not sick, my babies are not dying off and they are growing and doing well. I see no need to test....YET...just MHO

I am not saying that I won't in the future. I just have no means too and for someone to attack me because of it, that just isn't right...It is my right not to test and my decision not yours or any one else on this board. Should things go downhill I would gladly pay out to have dragons tested, I just see no need to...that is up to me, not you!

 

[Cat_72]

Which would be why I didn't mean to single you out. I was not attacking you, I was using your sentence as an example. I'm not rich either, yet I plan on finding a way to have every single dragon I own tested....and at this point, I don't think I will even be breeding the negative animals, because I don't need to breed them to enjoy them.

Once you see "the need" to test.....how many infected dragons might you have already sold? That is what I could not get off from my conscience.

 

[Lucille]

every dime I make off of my dragons

I am thinking of having some of my dragons tested although I do not breed reptiles at all, just to know.

While I am sure the cost of testing every single dragon may be daunting, what about testing just a random few?

I get the sense from recent reading about this disease from posts on this site that
1) there have been times where the disease has seemed to cause damage and
2) it is more widespread than we think

I think, as a few others have said, that widespread testing and publishing of results could help compile more information to help research go forward.

I do think that if one is selling dragons after reading all of this, that one should strongly consider at least random testing to begin with. Hopefully as the volume of testing goes up, there will be ways found to make the cost of testing go down.

 

[Iguanalady]

I am thinking of having some of my dragons tested although I do not breed reptiles at all, just to know.

While I am sure the cost of testing every single dragon may be daunting, what about testing just a random few?

I get the sense from recent reading about this disease from posts on this site that
1) there have been times where the disease has seemed to cause damage and
2) it is more widespread than we think

I think, as a few others have said, that widespread testing and publishing of results could help compile more information to help research go forward.

I do think that if one is selling dragons after reading all of this, that one should strongly consider at least random testing to begin with. Hopefully as the volume of testing goes up, there will be ways found to make the cost of testing go down.

When the big to-do about sunshine dragons was going on I did test the two that I have, both were negative. The thing with these tests and the point I have been trying to get acrossed it that they are not conclusive, it take several tests and then there is no guarentee, and I honestly don't believe that random testing is going to accomplish much....hence, my decision. Testing is not coclusive even at that, we could still have positive babies...it is a no win situation. I don't think that doing random tests will accomplish anything for the long run other then a research point of view. I am honest and upfront with people that buy my dragons. I am not hiding behind anything. Even the ones that are testing negative in other colonies could and probably will test positive at another point. If denisebme is testing and she continues to test that will enlighten alot of us. (Just using her as an example) I am very curious to see what happens with her dragons in the future, not to mention the offspring. I am watching basically from the sidelines to see what I will do next. I am not saying that I will never test, I just don't have a need to at this point.

 

[Lucille]

point of view. I am honest and upfront with people that buy my dragons.

As long as people purchase from you knowing that you have not tested all your dragons and knowing that this disease has been linked with a risk of substantial damage they are buying with knowledge and are knowingly assuming a risk.

People who sell to others and do not address the subject or who do not educate their buyers need to rethink what they are doing.

While one hopes that purchasers are familiar with husbandry issues it seems that many have known about this disease yet sold to others without either testing or informing their customers of the possibility that the disease is present.

If you are up front and tell your customers, you are giving them the choice of whether to purchase or not, and that is where the choice should be in my opinion.

 

[KelliH]

In the paper the authors stated that they have yet to have any breeder/collector/hobbyist's group of beardies test 100% negative. I would be interested in knowing not so much how many dragons were tested, rather how many owners/breeders submitted them. Does anyone know?

 

[Cat_72]

What is STILL my problem with the whole "being upfront and honest" about your lack of testing is that the average buyer has never even heard of Adeno....more less the risks that could be associated with it. And with the way many have downplayed it..."oh, pretty much all dragons have it, it's no big deal"...

IMO, this excerpt from Dr. Jocabsen's paper says it all....

However, like these other diseases, it also has a significant negative impact on the health of both individual animals and populations. A good deal of effort and expense will be needed to establish negative colonies, and adenovirus would easily spread amongst animals if only one infected animal were brought into the colony. It is certainly tempting to give up and ignore this problem. At this point, our best recommendation is testing and honesty, with the goal of establishing adenovirus-free colonies.