• Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

  • IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed

    =====================
    Posted 08/15/2025
    =====================


    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

    =====================
    Addendum: 01/10/2026
    =====================


    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Inquiry: MKR: Morph King Reptiles

evansnakes said:
B.W., first off your posts should be deleted since you don't feel you have to follow the rules and use your full name but only initials.
That's cute. The site administration decided that B W Smith is more accurate than my full name since that is what my business is under and that is the name my book is published under. You may find a couple folks who know who I am.

As for the rest of your useless drivel, I was referring to the Ball Python Morph market. I thought that was pretty clear from the rest of my posts in this thread. I should have clarified that in my last post to save you alot of useless typing. But just for fun:

Most of the players in the industry in every facet: tortoises, turtles, frogs, colubrids, geckos, etc., have all seen the light and moved into ball pythons as well.
ummm. no. Some have, but far from "most".

the ball market has been the only thing driving the industry for the past several years!
ummm. no.

Do you know what percentage of people that attend herp shows go just to see and buy ball pythons? The vast majority!
ummm. no. I will grant that a slight majority MAY at some shows but far from "vast"

What mkr did was not drop a price or adjust a market. How many times does it have to be said? They dumped the price on some specific mutations to intentially hurt people in the business AND THEY SAID THAT THEMSELVES!
good

the ball is the perfect animal for pet and pet trade
I would not use the word "perfect", but Ball Pythons are great little pet snakes. No arguing that, and I never have.

Those are facts. Not just slanted opinion.
Actually, those are inferences, interpretations, and opinions that you are trying to present as fact.

You demonstrate your ignorance of both the ball python market and the reptile business as a whole through your arrogant statements with no fact to back them up.
:rofl:

I truly apologize for not being more concise in my previous post to the fact that I was referring to the morph market, not the ball python market as a whole. Had I been more meticulous in my reply then it would have saved you a great deal of embarrassment. My apologies.
 
evansnakes said:
Do you know how many people who have no interest in breeding ball pythons will buy a pied when they get cheap? Or a bumblebee? It is all about how amazing they look and what great pets they make.
Well, that it what it SHOULD be about. Unfortunately though, that is not what the morph market IS about. So would not the bp morph market crashing aid in getting to this end?
 
BW Smith, you are very much mistaken about your views on the ball python market, it is huge and growing by leaps and bounds. how are you involved? are you a keeper, breeder or a seller of ball pythons. every person that is selling ball pythons is so busy packing and shipping that they cant take time to answer their phones. I think that you are sitting on the sidelines calling plays. :)
 
I have a very solid understanding of the market and the business of both reptiles as a whole and ball pythons bw. I personally know what I am saying to be fact as I know many many people in this business, have been very involved in it for many years, have attended a huge number of shows accross the nation and talk to people all overthe country in this business on a daily basis. I also deal with pet stores all the time and have for decades.

Why don't you supply a resume instead of insulting me based on your amazing god like knowledge of all subjects based on what? You are disputing facts, not my opinions or views. You are splitting hairs and trying to lead people away from the real subject. This thread is about mkr not about you. They are at best ethically challenged and people to avoid doing business with. That is what this thread is about and what it needs to remain about.

You try to twist the subject and the content and think it is embarrasing me? Not at all. I knew exactly what you meant even though, yes you expressed yourself poorly. You are wrong. You have no facts or evidence to substantiate you info and you are obviously not even in the ball python market but just somebody pissing and moaning because they underestimated the success and sales of the ball python and got left behind. It is nobodies fault but your own that you are missing out. Try not being jealous of the success others have had.

As for all the little cowards who keep posting me negative reputation points for telling the truth, it does not bother me and all you are doing is showing yourselves to be cowards. I am participating in this board as it was intended to be used, to post information about people that inquiries have been initiated on. If you have something to say post it. It is a coward who hides and lurks and leaves the big negative reputation points. I will be sure to post your names later when I have time.
 
While I have not always agreed with Evan...

and he hates the EmberBall because he feels I named it way too soon, I have to say that I could not have written a better response than his. I agree 100%.

I have heard that it was a vindictive act, to hurt certain breeders. That does not have anything to do with Economics. It seems to be a purposeful act towards a certain breeder to make a certain morph worthless.

What this price dump did, was hurt the Ball industry as a whole. How? Here is how, I will never spend another dime on a Ball Python, or at least not in the near future. The Mojave dump has made me think about what else will be dumped, and why buy anything if one person can ruin an entire morph. Why spend money today when tomorrow the animal could be half the price. There was a comfort level in the Ball market, people knew if you buy a Cinnamon for $5k, next year they will probably sell for $3K. People knew that, and accepted that. Now, there is no comfort level, and I will be keeping my money in my pocket.
 
David, I don't hate it or you I just feel strongly that people should do the breedings required to 100% know what they have before they tag it as genetic and name it. And if it is the same as something that already exists I think people should go with the name that was chosen by the person that produced it first. Too many people are throwing new names on existing projects and all it does is confuse people. Thanks for your post.
 
What info is there that the target of the dump

was a certain breeder, and it might be obvious, but who was the target? I have read some posts by Joe, and wow, interesting at the very least. I wonder if all those happy customers REALLY know who they bought from?

Dave
 
David, I agree, I had plans, like every year to buy a new morph or two. I will not take the risk that MKR will dump that morph just to get at someone they do not like. Joe capone comes on here with all his arrogance and I am god complex, and I JUST COULD NOT BELIEVE THE WORDS THAT HE WAS SAYING. he may have cost his business a couple 100 k with all his bullshit. and I know he lost a lot of people that were in his corner. even thought he has caused alot of trouble, the ball python market is alive and well. and anyone that says that there has been a crash, just dont know what their talking about. :yesnod:
 
evansnakes said:
As for all the little cowards who keep posting me negative reputation points for telling the truth, it does not bother me and all you are doing is showing yourselves to be cowards. I am participating in this board as it was intended to be used, to post information about people that inquiries have been initiated on. If you have something to say post it. It is a coward who hides and lurks and leaves the big negative reputation points. I will be sure to post your names later when I have time.


Hey you fat pussy!
I gave you a bad fucking karma rating because i didn't like your fucking post.
You on the other hand ,pussy,go to another thread were i have posted to get me back.Now who is the coward you yellowed back ,fat pussy.
I haven't posted here in this thread because i could give a flying fuck about ball pythons.Don't know and don't want to know them.
But i do know business,and i do know market fluctuation ,and market sateration.MY markets deal with animals selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars and multimillions.I Have seen markets crash,and people loss their life savings,i have also seen people make millions.
So don't call me a coward you pussy.Your the one going to another thread to hit the karma negatively.
Jack Ass!
 
Eh... getting pretty off topic here, but I suppose there's an ethical scism at the bottom of it.

Old posts, here on Fauna. Pretty much contains my thoughts, such as they are, on morph markets.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17805&highlight=morph

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9691&page=1&pp=40&highlight=prediction

But if people are really going to insist that prices can never change, markets can never fluxuate and morphs won't get cheaper as they become more widely avaliable (and c'mon, codominants- only an idiot would expect them to retain value over time)... I have some albino burms I'll happily sell for the low, low price of twenty thousand dollars apiece.
 
Why don't you supply a resume instead of insulting me based on your amazing god like knowledge of all subjects based on what?
My credentials are readily available.

you are obviously not even in the ball python market but just somebody pissing and moaning because they underestimated the success and sales of the ball python and got left behind. It is nobodies fault but your own that you are missing out. Try not being jealous of the success others have had.
That is cute. Of course I am not in the Ball Python market and never claimed to be. I got out many years ago when I saw the morph trend picking up and wanted no part of it. I enjoy herpetology, rather than mutating beautiful animals for profit. But to each his own.


anyone that says that there has been a crash, just dont know what their talking about

hmmmmm

Now, there is no comfort level, and I will be keeping my money in my pocket.

will not take the risk that MKR will dump that morph just to get at someone they do not like.
Sounds like "investors" are getting skittish to me.
 
Evan,

You obviously have a completely different perspective of what a market crash is. A price drop of 100% in the price of albinos in just one year (they are offered today 10/3/06 for $1,200 shipped and they don’t sell! it’s more than a price swing. A price drop of 300% for the Mojave in less than a year to $1,000 or best offer and/or trades (seen today in the ads), is more than just a price adjustment. Spiders? Let’s not even go there. Do you want to talk leucistics? Just check the ads today you can see 10 lot of 500 g females for $650 shipped. Those sold for $200+ each a few months ago. You see the same ads over and over again. The days of the normal adult females for $600 are gone...at least for a while.

If ball pythons were a currency, we are undergoing a huge devaluation, possibly comparable to the largest in recorded history for any developing country. But as I’m telling you this, I can also say that there’s no better time to invest in morphs than right now.

Best regards.
 
Investors getting skittish?

I could give away my entire Ball Python collection and not lose a night of sleep thinking about the financial ramifications. I am not in it for the money. I have a 410K, big buck in equity, savings accounts, and stocks as investments. So those of you who think I am whining because I only made half what I made last year, you are way off base. I still get a kick out of seeing the snakes pip and seeing the snakes head poke out of the egg. That is why I still keep my Ball collection, not too make millions. Like I have said before, I like my day job, and am very well paid. My point is that up until this Mojave dump, which looks like a purposeful devaluation of a commoditiy, you could count on the prices going down x% a year. x% next year, and x% the following year. NOW, who knows! Now it has been shown that one person can sell 50 or more of a morph, for pennies on the dollar, make their money, and screw everyone else, INCLUDING their old customers. My solution is to keep my money in my pocket for now. Everyone keeps bringing up Spiders and Pins. Their big price drop happened after the Mojave dump, if I remember correctly, which is my point about keeping money in ones pocket, which is why the price dropped so quickly on them. People are scared to spend their money now, after seeing what happened to the Mojave.

Dave
 
Hrm.

Codominant morph, noteable, desired and heavily propogated.

Let's say... the source animal was a female (I have no clue, this is a bit hypothetical anyway from this point on) and that the average ball clutch is eh... six eggs. It's a little high, but the even number is easier to work with, feel free to pick whatever numbers you like and do the same thing I am about to. Similarly, let's assume an even ratio of males to females in the offspring and nice mendelian production numbers.

Year One-
Bred to a male, produces six offspring, three expressing the trait two females and a male. (I'm being generous and slow)
Total population- one breeder, three neonates

Year two-
Bred to a male, produces six offspring, three expressing the trait, two males and a female.
Total population: 1 breeder, 3 yearlings, 3 neonates

Year three-
Those two year olds are able to reproduce, the male is bred to five different females, the female to a male each.
Female production- Nine offspring
Male Production- Fifteen offspring
Total population- Four breeders, three yearlings, twenty four neonates.

Year four-
Four females producing twelve offspring
Three males producing forty five offspring
Total population- seven breeders, twenty four yearlings, fifty seven neonates

Year five-
Sixteen females producing forty eight offspring
Fifteen males producing two hundred twenty five offspring
Total Population- thirty one breeders, fifty seven yearlings, two hundred seventy three neonates

Year Six-
Forty five females producing one hundred thirty five neonates
Forty three males producing six hundred forty five offspring
Total Population- eighty eight breeders, two hundred seventy three yearlings, seven hundred eighty neonates

And so on... and so on... and so on... The animals produce exponentially, not as a strict addition of the same number every year. The population of avaliable animals doesn't double from year to year, it's going to be expressed as a number that's about eight-ten times the number produced the year before when the emphasis to breed an investment morph is present. Obviously that's using very clinical numbers that disregard all the potential ways a breeding can be unsuccessful and using mendelian averages as an explaination but I think the *point* can be seen.

If there are ten times the animals produced this year that there were last year, AND the morph has become established enough to be avaliable for sale to the general public, why *wouldn't* the price drop by a factor of ten? As you get further down the price scale and the number of avaliable animals starts to line up with the demand for the morph, you have a lot more potential customers but a lot more competition from other sellers too. The prices MKR offered were simply logical given the volume of animals they had to move. I had seen ads they posted (in passing) for several weeks prior to dropping their price more substantially where the morph wasn't selling at 1200 or even 1000 dollars; I don't think the price they arrived at was an arbitrary number I believe it was one that was acchieved by slowing dropping the prices on their animals until they found the selling point. Doing so immediately prior to a major show was a logical choice as well, many consumers would have purchased animals at the show and would no longer be interested in buying from online sources, the demand would have been met by the show supply, leaving a smaller demand post-show. From a business standpoint, their actions are perfectly logical.

All the arguments about motivation and the allusions to some ulterior motive don't change the reality of the market or the quality of the business decisions.
 
FunkyRes said:
They sold at a very high price one year. It was not hobbyists buying these snakes, it was investors, small time breeders hoping to make some money.

They very next year, they sell the same snakes at 10% of the previous price, and make statements about driving the small time breeders out of business.

This was nothing but a money grab. It may have been a legal money grab, but it was stealing from the working class that was trying to make an honest buck.

That is exactly the kind of action that results in new (often over bearing) laws to be written.
Oh please. The only laws being written about herps are restrictions on keeping so called "dangerous" species. The government could care less about a few small time breeders or hobbyists losing a few thousand dollars. To even think that they would is laughable.

This guy is an assclown but he evidently delivers healthy snakes at good prices. If that puts small time people out of business then boo hoo. That's life. People keep talking about our hobby as a business but when someone comes in and acts like a business by making a serious investment and making morphs financially available to the average buyer then you all become a bunch of whining babies.

Want to compete with MKR? Get financial backing and beat him at his own game. Or band together. He brags about his great customer service but I've seen some complaints about that aspect. Make that a bigger priority.

To those who complain that he benefited from others who worked hard, that may be true. But that also is the nature of business. It's the model of Dell computer which spends pitifully little on R&D and always has simply made gobs of cash from using available components and providing excellent inventory control and work flow. Same thing for Sam Walton. He put the small guys out of business because he could. So did Home Depot. Apple computer stole (yes stole) the concept of a GUI from Xerox which let Steve Jobs walk through their Palo Alto lab one day. His company was small at the time but big enough to get it out to market before Xerox. Xerox basically went down without a whimper.

This is the BOI and we all love to say how we want people to be "professional" and "business-like". This guy is running a business. He invests and he looks at his bottom line. Clearly he needs big doorways to fit his swelled ego, but that doesn't mean that he isn't allowed to sell morphs at a price that he believes is reasonable. And reasonable for his business is what the market will bear. If he sells all he produces for $500 and you all sit on animals priced at $800, who is the smarter businessman?

Does anyone have anything bad to say about the snakes that MKR produces or is this thread just simply going to be more sour grapes
 
Seamus Haley said:
Hrm.

Codominant morph, noteable, desired and heavily propogated.

Let's say... the source animal was a female (I have no clue, this is a bit hypothetical anyway from this point on) and that the average ball clutch is eh... six eggs. It's a little high, but the even number is easier to work with, feel free to pick whatever numbers you like and do the same thing I am about to. Similarly, let's assume an even ratio of males to females in the offspring and nice mendelian production numbers.

Year One-
Bred to a male, produces six offspring, three expressing the trait two females and a male. (I'm being generous and slow)
Total population- one breeder, three neonates

Year two-
Bred to a male, produces six offspring, three expressing the trait, two males and a female.
Total population: 1 breeder, 3 yearlings, 3 neonates

Year three-
Those two year olds are able to reproduce, the male is bred to five different females, the female to a male each.
Female production- Nine offspring
Male Production- Fifteen offspring
Total population- Four breeders, three yearlings, twenty four neonates.

Year four-
Four females producing twelve offspring
Three males producing forty five offspring
Total population- seven breeders, twenty four yearlings, fifty seven neonates

Year five-
Sixteen females producing forty eight offspring
Fifteen males producing two hundred twenty five offspring
Total Population- thirty one breeders, fifty seven yearlings, two hundred seventy three neonates

Year Six-
Forty five females producing one hundred thirty five neonates
Forty three males producing six hundred forty five offspring
Total Population- eighty eight breeders, two hundred seventy three yearlings, seven hundred eighty neonates

And so on... and so on... and so on... The animals produce exponentially, not as a strict addition of the same number every year. The population of avaliable animals doesn't double from year to year, it's going to be expressed as a number that's about eight-ten times the number produced the year before when the emphasis to breed an investment morph is present. Obviously that's using very clinical numbers that disregard all the potential ways a breeding can be unsuccessful and using mendelian averages as an explaination but I think the *point* can be seen.

If there are ten times the animals produced this year that there were last year, AND the morph has become established enough to be avaliable for sale to the general public, why *wouldn't* the price drop by a factor of ten? As you get further down the price scale and the number of avaliable animals starts to line up with the demand for the morph, you have a lot more potential customers but a lot more competition from other sellers too. The prices MKR offered were simply logical given the volume of animals they had to move. I had seen ads they posted (in passing) for several weeks prior to dropping their price more substantially where the morph wasn't selling at 1200 or even 1000 dollars; I don't think the price they arrived at was an arbitrary number I believe it was one that was acchieved by slowing dropping the prices on their animals until they found the selling point. Doing so immediately prior to a major show was a logical choice as well, many consumers would have purchased animals at the show and would no longer be interested in buying from online sources, the demand would have been met by the show supply, leaving a smaller demand post-show. From a business standpoint, their actions are perfectly logical.

All the arguments about motivation and the allusions to some ulterior motive don't change the reality of the market or the quality of the business decisions.


Brilliantly put as ususal Seamus.....nice to see you dropping by again
 
It’s somewhat amazing that lots of people are not doing this for the money, but yet they complain about the “unfairness” of the sudden price drop. It was in this very same site that was pointed out that some ball python prices were outright obscene. If I’m not mistaken it was Jerry Tresser who with great irony pointed out “who in his right mind would want to steal a snake or even pay such an outrageous price”. Those who want to be thrilled at the “miracle of life”, and experience “Nature” or “National Geographic” at home, can do so with plain normal ball pythons. There’s no need to do it with bumblebees, albinos, mojaves, pieds, etc. Maybe I’m way off and they are doing it just to polish-up their knowledge of Mendelian genetics...
 
Hey Christopher, you are a coward and by your post you are also not very smart and can't read. I think you violated about every policy of this site and I sincerely hope that it leads to your removal from it. Name calling, after cowardly back stabbing, yeah, you are a real shooter pal. It is always the big mouth on the computer. I tire of people who post anything they want because they know there penalties for it. I would love to see what kind of a man you are face to face instead of insulting em and slandering me on a computer. I repeat, you are a coward.
 
even, if you did track down one of Chris' posts just to give him negative points THAT is abuse of the rep system.

Chris did go overboard, again, but that does not mean you can/should as well.

How about a little of practiced what you preach instead of double standards of convenience?
 
evansnakes said:
Hey Christopher, you are a coward and by your post you are also not very smart and can't read. I think you violated about every policy of this site and I sincerely hope that it leads to your removal from it. Name calling, after cowardly back stabbing, yeah, you are a real shooter pal. It is always the big mouth on the computer. I tire of people who post anything they want because they know there penalties for it. I would love to see what kind of a man you are face to face instead of insulting em and slandering me on a computer. I repeat, you are a coward.

And i stand by what i said
 
Back
Top