Jeane Best / Wendy Childs...Beware

[Hues1]

bottom line is these people said they came from Alex DIRECTLY, which they obviously did not. Alex wants his name removed from the ad as the ad is stating something that is wrong. He is in his rights to ask this in my opinion and it should be taken care of.

THANK YOU

 

[Chameleon Company]

OK, we have an answer.

Alex, I thank you for finally clarifying things. By the way, if you want to keep asking this:

hello are we there yet????

Tell me where "there" is, and I will let you know.

I just had a very nice phone conversation with Shelley. I thank her for it.

OK, Alex says "all I want is my name removed from the ad, the mess, etc" I can sympathize completely with wanting any ad to clearly state what the transfer of bloodlines was. I can understand completely taking umbrage with someone saying that they got animals directly from Alex, or implying that deliberately or otherwise. It would have been accurate for W and J to say "we have Mack Snows from Alex Hues lineage" to the extent that anyone can say such if they can show the transfer of ownership route. Or they could list the "A to B to C" in the ad. Alex' name would be in it, and fairly so. He would also in no way be liable for any transfer of animals except to the person he initially sold them to, in this case Shelley. Sorry, but I cannot support Alex' claim that his name must be removed if he wants it removed. Only that it be properly stated.

If one reads the initial post, the message conveyed by Alex is that these folks have no claim to his bloodlines. It took until this recent post for Alex to acknowledge that he sold Mack Snows to Shelley. It doesn't guarantee that anyone after that got them, but the claim is valid by all those who paid for such down river from Shelley. It is for the buyer to beware when buying animals that are 2-3 degrees removed. There is no proof what-so-ever that the lineage has been misrepresented. Everything that has been posted about Mike West could be 100% true, and so could the claim that he traded the animals to Jeane and Wendy. Shelley knows plenty more of the possibilities there. Mike is 16 too.

Now the tone of undermining their integrity has shifted completely. The possibility that they have the actual bloodlines is firmly established. Not that they do, for only breeding them out will verify it. But it is truly possible, and is no longer a false claim on their part. Now the attack is on the time-lines to have produced the animals. Shelley may make a few points there, but she told me that based on the timing and size of animals that she furnished to Mike, that it is possible that Jeane and Wendy have produced what they say that they have.

I can try to give you the benefit of the doubt and think that you did not realize what the impression that you were giving with your thread starter and first few posts would be. As I read all the posts since, its really a stretch, and while I "may have been born at night, it sure wasn't last night". I have a hard time reconciling your newfound effort to raise doubts about their breeding timeline when that is a matter for Shelley, Mike, Jeane, and Wendy. You were not a part of those transactions and timelines Alex. If all you ever wanted was your name out of it, why do you now attack them where you are the one far removed from the events? You go right after them for being two degrees removed from your sale to Shelley, but now you are three degrees removed form their breeding, and you speculate about their integrity on that matter. Yup, I have a problem with that.

Alex, you could have just stuck with the facts and been fine in this matter. You could have gotten it all out in the beginning. Its been a bit of a twisted route getting the transfer of bloodline established. You had it all from the beginning, but chose not to disclose it. You could have said from the get-go that you would only vouch for the sale of Mack Snows to Lizard Lair. Thats how it is for all of us who hold some claim to bloodlines. Its a huge omission from your thread starter.

"Are we there yet". For me ...... "Yes", but we sure took the long route.

 

[Hues1]

you absolutely just dont get it do you ?

The one from you is beautiful!

Whats from me?

The geckos Shelly shipped off to Mike were produced by......can you guess???

Shelly!

They were not produced by me.....does that make some sense to you now? So how does someone have a gecko "from me" when I didnt send them one, when the person they claim they purchased it from didnt get one from me either?

why dont you address this statement here Jim ?

Produced by me from breeders aquired from Lizard Lair and Alex Hue

or are we saying that its okay to claim a certain animal is/was produced from a certain breeder just because those animals may or may not have that breeders genes in it?

So I'm in the same boat you are, I get animals NOT produced by John Doe Breeder, but its okay for me to imply that I did receive them from John Doe breeder just because his bloodlines are in that animal....is that what we're implying Jim?

The one from you is beautiful!

Produced by me from breeders aquired from Lizard Lair and Alex Hue

Based on those 2 quotes above, are we "really" talking about lineage or are we making a claim?

They claimed the gecko was from me directly, they claimed the guy who they traded with says the gecko was from me directly, so now they say the gecko was one I produced but was received from Shelly via Mike West??

So where do I fit into all of this? heh Jim?

I didnt produce those animals, they didnt receive them from me, the guy they traded with didnt receive them from me, Shelly didnt give this guy animals I produced. Does that make it very clear to you now?

I was directed to the following ads by a customer of mine, the ads state that this animal for sale was produced from adult animals acquired from myself and another breeder.

I have NEVER sold these people any Mack Snows, I e-mailed these folks and was told by them that they acquired their adult breeders from a guy in Idaho by the name of Mike West. I have never sold any Macks to a Mike West in Idaho either.

I have repeatedly asked them to remove my name from their listings as I do not wish to be associated with a animal that may not possibly be a true Mack Snow. They have not removed my name from their ads. So I am left with no other alternative but to post this here.

That was my very post on this thread, see what it says there in black and white? So whats the subject of this thread? They didnt receive animals from me....Mike West didnt receive animals from me either !!! We're not talking about "lineage" we're talking about someone claiming they have animals DIRECTLY from me. See the difference now?

 

[Hues1]

According to Jim....apparently there is no difference between

Quote:
The one from you is beautiful!

Quote:
Produced by me from breeders aquired from Lizard Lair and Alex Hue

and

produced by me from breeders originating from Lizard Lair and Alex Hue bloodlines/lineage

 

[Chameleon Company]

No, I get it Alex. I just don't agree with you. I'm not going to repeat myself, or use large type, etc. As Charley Brown used to say ... "Good Grief"! Whatever the differences in how things were read, represented to them, etc, the matter of clearing up lineages etc. is not a difficult thing to do. To me, its the accuracy of the ads, the accuracy of the BOI posts, and the extent to which they are factual, false, malicious, etc. If you want to start parsing bits and pieces of emails as people tried to reconcile things, you can knock yourself out. You'll be here forever. If anything, their emails indicate that they may have thought the animals were more directly from you than was the case, but not an attempt to deliberately misrepresent. You chose a BOI thread that took a long time to get the facts to the readers. If their ads were misleading, and I can certainly see how they could be read several ways, your thread starter was even more misleading, IMO. Now the thread goes after their timelines on breeding, which you are uniquely unqualified to speculate on, but apparently that did not stop you. Certainly they could have made things more clear, but that is not saying that their intent was to misrepresent or decieve. I have no doubt that more email exchanges will come out tomorrow where the discussion between you and Wendy became antagonistic in a big hurry. Great job working things out, BTW. It seems to be your M.O. here too. Your thread starter has some real problems with being misleading, so at best its the pot calling the kettle black. I didn't think that you handled it well Alex, and after my long talk with Shelley, I am sure of it. If the first post by you here were left to stand unchallenged, we'd never know all that we do now about how they may very likely have mack snows from your bloodlines. You deliberately left things out so as to create a different impression. I am not saying that you did not have an issue to resolve. I am saying that you made choices in doing so that I think went way beyond what was necessary. Call it painting with too broad a brush, and deliberately leaving vital areas blank where you had the information. I think you could have handled it much better, more professionally, and more fairly. Just my opinion. Now you want to get sarcastic with me. Is the sarcasm and "you don't get it's" going to win something? Am I going to just say "OK". I'm looking for more Brasso to shine my armor. My eyes are bouncing from big type to little type. You're repeating yourself more than I do myself, and that's quite a feat. And I'm still wondering where your "there" is. Did you think no one would take issue with you here? I just played Monopoly last week. I got a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, but no "Free Pass on the BOI" ticket. But I enjoy the sarcasm Keep it coming

 

[Lizard Lair]

I can’t say what Wendy and Jeane does or does not have as far as Macks go because I have never done business with them. I have traded Macks, and other leopard gecko morphs to Mike in Idaho. He owns the leos outright, and can do whatever he wants with them. The Macks I sent to him are the result of breeding my Super Snow male which I purchased from Alex Hue with a variety of females that I already owned. I think the only real issue here is Wendy and Jeanes original ad gave the impression that she bought them directly from Alex and me. All that is called for is a minor correction in their wording of the ad. They may not have even realized that their choice of wording gave the wrong impression. I do not know what is going on between Mike and Wendy, and I honestly don't want to know - it isn't any of my business. What Mike says he did or did not sell them isn't the issue. Alex is definitely out of the picture here as he didn’t sell to either one of them. Alex and I both made requests to them to correct their ad. If they want to show who their breeders came from – fine. That is good knowledge for their prospective buyers. But be correct when you do it.

I'm not especially eloquent and I have kept this brief and hopefully to the point.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Alex, I am not a Gecko person.

I don't read the ads, check the forums, trade notes with people about them etc. I don't know you from Shinola. But after my first post today, I get a PM from one member who does geckos, and an email from another who is also active with them. I understand their not wanting to post here so far, as it may burn bridges they do not want to. Here's just one quote, which will have to remain anonymous:

I have seen Alex go after people in the past over selling Macks.
It just seems that everytime someone lists one of these, and he didn't give the thumbs up on the sale, he gets very upset.

Is it any surprise that someone has had Wendy and Jeane's ad on KS pulled twice now? Chameleon folks used to have a reputation, but it seems we've passed the baton !! You can keep it.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I don't read the ads, check the forums, trade notes with people about them etc. I don't know you from Shinola. But after my first post today, I get a PM from one member who does geckos, and an email from another who is also active with them. I understand their not wanting to post here so far, as it may burn bridges they do not want to. Here's just one quote, which will have to remain anonymous:

Now, now Jim. You should know anonymous third party quotes are not allowed on the BOI.

If their ads were misleading, and I can certainly see how they could be read several ways

To be honest, I can't see any other way to read it.

Produced by me from breeders aquired from Lizard Lair and Alex Hue

If I were casually reading an ad worded this way, there would be no other way to take that statement. The animals were produced from breeders obtain from two sources. The owner of the ad received breeders from Lizard Lair and then Alex. It’s the word "and" that causes the problem.
This should have been resolved quickly with minor changes and I don't think we would have any issue here.

 

[Chameleon Company]

No doubt Dennis, and I wish that the matter could have been kept in that context. But from the first post's ommission of equally important information, misleadingly so, to the more recent speculation about reproductive ages, a whole lot of misinformation has been bantered about. Like I said, it seems to be a pattern.

 

[Hues1]

I don't read the ads, check the forums, trade notes with people about them etc. I don't know you from Shinola. But after my first post today, I get a PM from one member who does geckos, and an email from another who is also active with them. I understand their not wanting to post here so far, as it may burn bridges they do not want to. Here's just one quote, which will have to remain anonymous:

Should we trade PMs now too Jim? I've got 5 stating things anywhere from you're obviously a troll through you should'nt be even discussing this thread considering you just completed a transaction with Jeane and Wendy leaving you a bit biased wouldnt you think?

I guess honest people ALWAYS list their ads dropping the names of breeders they didnt even obtain their animals from?

See that post from Shelly there Jim, she didnt wish her name to be used in those ads either? Ya know why? Your friends there never got any geckos directly from Me or Shelly but yet they advertised them as so.

Keep trying to turn the tides there Jim, You keep refering to my first post there, what about it...its not accurate enough for you? Clearly states the truth of the matter doesnt it? They didnt purchase any animals from me or Shelly directly now did they?

You would think they would've listed those animals as being from Mike West....considering that IS who they got them from isnt it? Yet no mention of him at all? I wonder why that is?

Let me just clarify for you yet once again, I've asked them to remove my name from their ads at least 3 times prior to posting this thread and had EVERY right to do so....that isnt hard to comprehend now is it. I also gave them a reasoning as to why I wished my name removed from those ads, its really really really simple, their ads appeared as if they purchased the animals directly from me...it is not so. Instead of just leaving my name out of their ads as I asked them to do, they instead opted to relist the ads using my name once again as a type of "reference".

Now why would someone do that after presented with facts that the person they received them from had in fact not received them from me and that the animals werent even ones that I had produced.

Now you can keep trying to find that extra little edge to try and twist things around all you want...but every time you do so we'll just come right back to why this thread is here.........

I have NEVER sold these people any Mack Snows, I have never sold any Macks to a Mike West in Idaho either. The animals they have in their possesion were not produced by me.

Anything about that statement there that is not true?

 

[Hues1]

This should have been resolved quickly with minor changes and I don't think we would have any issue here.

Thank you Dennis.

Just a FYI for you Jim, I asked them to remove my name from their listings 3 times prior to posting this thread, had they done so and for good reasoning too....this thread wouldnt even be here.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Alex, if you had kept your issue with them focused ...

If you had stayed focused on not wanting to be deliberately or inadvertently identified as the direct supplier of one or more of their breeders, there is no doubt things would have been very different. That is not to say that your name would have or should have been removed from the ad, which is a completely different issue. For the umpteenth time, but for the new readers here:

1) Jeane and Wendy would have been completely justified in saying "documented bloodlines from Alex Hue to Lizard Lair to Mike West to us, etc. etc."

2) So your motive was the accuracy of being the supplier of the breeders, but your first post says this:

I repeatedly asked them to remove my name from their listings as I do not wish to be associated with a animal that may not possibly be a true Mack Snow.

If you don't want your name associated with the downstream offspring of what you sell, then don't sell. This is a different additional motive, in your words. As we all know, the seller is only liable for the first sale. This cannot be a new concept for you.

3) Then by post #17, you are saying this:

Shelly sold these animals to Mike West in Early late August/Early September....they were all around 20 or so grams when Mike west received them., they were not breedable at the time. In order for these animals to be produced within that time frame...the animals Mike West received would've needed to be adults and in breeding mode, even then eggs maybe would've been laid around late November or Early December, than you take into account incubation takes approx. 40-60 days...going by those dates and numbers...its highly unlikely that those Mack Snows from Shelly could've produced this baby she is offering.

Guess what ! Shelley told me specifically that she had provided Mike with all sizes and maturities of animals, to include breeder size, and that the scenario outined by Jeane and Wendy was very possible. But since when did not doing a little homework ever stop someone from painting with the "broad brush" that I spoke of.

Here's the trouble Alex. You didn't keep it simple-stupid. You made your post here vague, the thread a wandering of accusations and innuendo, and getting just to the facts so that people could judge for themselves was like a bad trip to the dentist. In post #17 you state innacurate information, won't call ita lie, but just being misinformed, as if were fact. All you had to do was first state, and then stick to, the facts. Then let readers here judge what they will. I thank you for wandering into the misinformation of Post #17 because it demonstrates that you had other agendas here. Your words, written voluntarily by you, and posted by you.

Readers here will draw their own conclusions. Some will think Wendy and Jeane are trying to be scammers etc. Some may think you are a petty jerk who can't handle competition. Some may think I need to shoot myself !! I can easily see more than one saying "a pox on all their houses".

Sorry to rain on your parade. You should have brought an umbrella.

 

[VFR!]

Whatever problems Alex has had with other people or people have had with Alex does not mean he is not justified to bring up to other’s attention when his name is obviously misused. The ad does not say that they are from Alex’s line but rather implies that they came from him directly.

 

[VFR!]

I would like to mention that if the ad did read that the animals were produced from a line of animals that originated from Alex, then the ad would be justified... but the bottom line is that it does not.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Angel, thank you.

I would like to mention that if the ad did read that the animals were produced from a line of animals that originated from Alex, then the ad would be justified... but the bottom line is that it does not.

I agree, and believe I have echoed this several times as well. If Alex had kept this his focus, he had a very valid complaint. There was no need to make it an issue of the integrity of the bloodlines, which will always be suspect with anyone's animals, 2-3 degrees removed, and is a fundamental aspect of our business. We all have to live with it, and certainly don't react as Alex did when we see others selling animals F-2 or 3 from us. We also don't then present false information to then draw innacurate conclusions about their breeding timelines so as to cast further unfair doubt on their bloodlines. We are are welcome to these opinions, but if we post them in public forum ...... well, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, or in this case, you never should have come in.

 

[Hues1]

Jim....its amazing how you read into things that arent even there, its even more amazing you can take a factual no nonsense thread and try to turn it into something that benefits YOU and the people around YOU.

This ones for you...to make up for all the the attention you obviously feel you've been missing from some other parts of your life

Shoot me your address and I'll send you some bullfrogs that you can dissect to death too, but be forewarned...no matter how much you try to make that bullfrog look like a slug....its just aint gonna happen.

Well...off to my son's football game I go........

 

[WebSlave]

I would like to remind everyone that quoting from a PM or email and NOT providing the actual source of that quote is a violation of the rules here. This is a classic Anonymous Third Party Quotation, and is specifically against the rules because it avoids ownership and responsibility for the words being quoted. If someone is not willing to have their thoughts made public and put their name behind them, then those thoughts MUST remain the private backstabbing that it appears to be.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Point taken Rich. The transgression was all mine, as no one asked me to post their words and keep them anonymous, it was solely my decision to share a note for which I did not have permission to reveal its source, and would not expect it were I to ask. I do not have the power to delete it, for by the rules, it should not be there. Throughout the thread, I had only challenged points made by Alex. That was an unfair introduction of a new angle on his motivation that was unnecessary.

Alex, hope your son has a good game. The beauty of the BOI is that readers not only see the "facts", if they can be found, but also how every poster conducts themselves, reacts, uses wit and humor and logic, or just resorts too often to personal attacks, as perhaps a bad offense is better than no defense.

What happens if I put salt on a bullfrog?

 

[Gecko_Den]

I agree, and believe I have echoed this several times as well. If Alex had kept this his focus, he had a very valid complaint. There was no need to make it an issue of the integrity of the bloodlines, which will always be suspect with anyone's animals, 2-3 degrees removed, and is a fundamental aspect of our business. We all have to live with it, and certainly don't react as Alex did when we see others selling animals F-2 or 3 from us. We also don't then present false information to then draw innacurate conclusions about their breeding timelines so as to cast further unfair doubt on their bloodlines. We are are welcome to these opinions, but if we post them in public forum ...... well, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, or in this case, you never should have come in.

Jim, you and I have been on the same side of BOI discussions as well as on opposite sides in the past. However, in this case I think you bear some responsibility for Alex "losing focus".

Perhaps your relationship with Wendy clouded your judgement, but from an outsiders perspective it appeared you immediatly took her side and championed her defense without even waiting to hear what she had to say. Almost from the get go you put Alex on the defensive and challenged his posts nearly line for line.

I'm not defending Alex, while I know of him I don't know him, and it is documented somewhere in another thread here on the BOI that I disagree with the way he handled the whole Mack snow situation from the beginning. But, in this case he was well within his right to address the fact that the ad's appeared to be written in a way that intentionally mislead the reader into believing that the Macks in question came directly from him and to request that they be corrected.

You are of above average intelligence and I have seen Wendy post here and I believe her to be a smart lady as well, to suggest that this was a simple misunderstanding may have flown in the beginning, but she was informed early on that the breeders did not come from Alex. Rather than doing the right thing, and just removing Alex's name or stating that they originated from his line, she chose to add a paragraph of double talk and nonsense to her ad that further muddied the waters.

A simple question would be why not just say that she obtained the breeders from Mike West and they were from Alex's line? The simple answer would be because no one has heard of Mike West and she thought she could get more by dropping the names of a couple of breeders who people have heard of...

 

[Chameleon Company]

Sam, I agree with just about all that you say. I will add that with regards to "waiting to hear what Wendy had to say", she is one of many customers, and I called her once she did not reply to my emails alerting her to the thread, as I thought this matter important. I was apparently the first to contact her. I noted the contact in a post, and that she was away. I had plenty of information from Wendy, have done business with Shelley, have now spoke with her (Shelley) at length about this twice, etc., and already knew much of Mike West and he and his Dad's bug business. I knew of the direct link of Alex to Shelley to Mike to Jeane and Wendy from the very beginning. It took how many posts for Alex to acknowledge such? Getting that link clarified and out of the way would seem to want to "focus" things on the issue as you outline, but it was like pulling teeth. My very first post raised these exact issues to be able to focus on whatever had been done wrong here, and understand the true complaint. Its not long, go back and read it if you would. Your first post Sam (I think you were #2, and I #3) indicates that you also read Alex' first post as I did, and were a little bit misled, whether deliberately or otherwise. Its in the choices Alex made as he presented the issue. Your above post is concise and right to the legitimate complaint that Alex had. I also hope that Wendy will at least learn the importance of being exact, even if redundantly so, so as to avoid getting up the ire of any or all who were in the supply chain of the bloodline. It matters. But it was also Alex' choice to go well beyond the parameters and concerns that you outline. He's a big boy. He can take responsibility for it. Attacking the integrity of another vendor's animals based on falsehoods, the production timelines he had wrong, and the assumptions drawn from them, and omitting the bloodline links is more than just "losing focus" in my view. While the possible problems with Mike West being pinched right now needing to be cleared up, Alex could have said (as he had the info) in his first post "I sold to Shelley, who sold to Mike, who J and W claim to have gotten them from, but he seems to indicate that he did not sell them any, and I'm trying to track that down, or ask J and W to firm that up". He had emails from them already indicating the relationship. lHis first post gives a very different impression of any claim J and W may be making. That's my bitch (complaint that is ....), and he doesn't like it. So what, I'm not buying geckos! People can read this thread and draw whatever conclusions that they want to.

These threads rarely change the issue at hand, and often just get some fur flying, etc. Every now and then we get an amicable resolution. One definite result is that people learn from them, to include those involved, even if they don't admit such. People move on, hopefully wiser. That includes me.

Trust me when I say that I always value your insight and opinion. Its way up my list. I thank you for your voice of reason.