Jeff Gee -Captive Bred wildlife foundation- Bad Businessman

[Combs69]

Im going to try and keep this simple and stick to the facts.
In aug-sep of 2005 I bought a pair of supposed 100% guranteed"doube het albino leopards" from Jeff.
I paid 8k for them. I was lead to believe that they were 03's and were from a breeding of a hans winner leopard female and a kahl albino male.
I wired the money directly to his bank, and in several days i went to the airport and picked them up.
When i got them home, i notice they were a good bit smaller then advertised and when i put them in quarantine, they were crawling with mites, tons of them. So, i called jeff told him about the mites and asked for a refund and i would send them back. I was told that mites are like fleas on dogs and that if you keep snakes you will get mites. Well at this point i had been keeping snakes for 7 years, and never had them. He thought i was overreacting to the mites and told me, "if you cant handle mites from time to time, maybe you should collect gold coins for a hobby". He also told, me the money had been spent before i even got the snakes, so there was no way for a refund. He also didnt consider mites or the fact they were considerably smaller then advertised and not the snakes pictured in the advertisement to be a refundable problem, however he gurantees his stuff in his ads he post -
this is what he post in his ads
"BUY WITH CONFIDENCE!
Jeff Gee, owner of Captive Bred Wildlife Foundation, has been in the reptile business for over 30 years, and is well known in the community as straight dealer with high quality, honestly described animals. CBWF is a Verified Delta & UPS Shipper and Verified PayPal Account holder. CBWF is licensed by US Fish & Wildlife to maintain & breed threatened and endangered species, import and export wildlife, and is one of the very few private permit holders for Galapagos and Radiated Tortoises."
Let me state at this point, even though i was very upset, i never lost my temper or lowered myself into a cussing match, which took some restraint.
He did send me a book, and some mite killer for the mites.
To this day, i dont think Jeff is a bad guy, just a bad businessman who did not keep his word and sent me sickly animals and not what they were supposed to be. I am in no way attacking him personally.
Well, after the mites and they way he dealt with me, i started to feel leary about the actual genetics of these snakes, so i wrote hans winner and asked him about these snakes, he said he didnt produce them and that it couldnt have been one of his females because there were none in europe old enough in 03 to produce this litter. here is an actual email:
Subj: AW: AW: AW: albino leopards
Date: 11/30/2005 4:22:04 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: [email protected] (H.J. Winner)
To: [email protected]

Hi Mike,

there are still no Leopard Boa females in a breedable size/age from my line except my own in Europe.

All what’s sold over here from me can breed earliest next year, formerly I exported all to the USA and Japan.

I think the Austrian guys lied to Jeff, I also saw their add at kingsnake.com when they where offering Leopard Boas.

Best Regards,

Hans

well, jeffs reply in short, was he dont know why hans would say this and that he knows these Dh's are what they say.
I asked him about where they did come from and he refused to tell me, saying he didnt want to give up his source.

I do have paper work that gurantees these snakes.
Now There is also another person, who has bought a pair of these snakes, from the same litter.
Jeff bought as a 3.3 sold me a pair, and the other gentleman a pair.
We all bred these snakes this past year, and with over 35 offspring produced, all were normals..no albinos, no leopards and of course no leopard albinos.
Jeff admits, these snakes are not dh albino leopards and he got taken as well.
At least he did recoupe most of his money, the 8k from me and 10 from the other gentleman.
He has offered us some f5 hypos, which neither of us are interested in.
He says he has no cash, and this is all he can do.
Not only do we have the price of purchase, but the time and feeding and cleaning and since the other guy had his litter first , the disappointment of NOT being the first to produce the albino leopard and losing the potential money from that litter.
I do have other emails, but i pretty much summed it all up.
We we sold snakes that were guranteed to be 100% DH's and we got mite infested normals instead. Why would we want anything else from him? The other guys snakes were all loaded with mites as well.
So, just be careful when dealing with CBWF.
Like i said, Jeff seems like a nice guy, this was just bad business from the get go and we were not dealt with the way we should have been.
I feel we deserve a full refund, we were guranteed genetics, this is not just a case of buying a snake and it dying, and getting some other snakes in return.
Im sure others may feel differantly. But this is how i feel and the other guy who bought these as well. Well i tried to keep it simple
Mike

 

[xrayeric1993]

Legal action

I admire you for not lowering yourself to cursing and fighting. However, I think something needs to be done about this situation. I don't care if Mr. Gee has the money or not. He should get a loan , mortgage his house, or whatever it takes to repay you ! It appears to me from the email he has sent you that he has no intention of repaying you. I don't blame you for not accepting hypos as payment (his are over priced). I would suggest contacting an attorney immediately. You can sue him for the value of the snakes, feeding, and court costs. When you win a judgement against him, put a lien against his house and car (very easy to accomplish). I know that you still have the opinion that Mr. Gee is a good man , but not a good businessman. However, ask yourself this : would a good man purposefully financially rape another to benefit himself ?

 

[VanZwedenReptiles]

Hi Mike
I feel bad that this happened to you . Did Jeff buy these snakes as dbble hets and not knowing sell them as he was told they where? Did he make up the paper work? If so I think you can do something to get your cash back atleast some of it. I would be very mad about this. Jeff used to live close to me many years ago, I'm not sure if he has changed that much but he always seemed to do what was right. He would have to give you a few pairs of DH F5's to make up for this enough so you could sell them and make your money back and then some for the trobles. I have always liked Jeff and he has been around for along time. But I would do something soon about this,he needs to make this right with you and repay even if he has to go after the guys that sold him the Animals.

1st I would let him know that there is a BOI thread about this. I hope he does what is right and this can be taken care of the right way. I couldn't handle a loose like that,nor could i refund 8 k asap like you sould get. I hope he comes here and explains what is going on. Did you email him? If not I will or someone else can he needs to know. I feel bad for you and this would be a major loose for me that i wouldn't be able to let go of. I truly hope this all works out as well as it can Just haveing DBBL hets and them not being what you thought would stress me beyond what i could handle. In other words something has to be done to make this right for you. I beleave Hans he would know if he bred these you would think.!

 

[ChrisGilbert]

I remember seeing the ads on KS from the original seller of these "DH" before Jeff was selling any. They were in Europe and were also advertising Leopards for sale. None of the "Leopards" looked anything like Han's line, however I do believe a few others have produced Leopards, or similar looking morphs in Europe not related to the Winner line which has filled the bulk of the US market. The ads did state they were not Winner line, this I do remember, but I can't recall any more info. Sorry I can't help further, but I thought I should share this information.

If anyone needs to email me about this feel free to do so, [email protected]

 

[MRC31]

I notified Jeff of this post and am attatching the email he sent me. He apparently is not a registered member. I have NEVER spoken with Jeff before, all I did was notify him of this post via email.

> Monday 07/30/2007
>
> E-Mail Message
>
> From: Micah
> Email: [email protected]
>
> Message:
>
> Jeff,
>
> Just thought you should know that somebody started a bad guy post on
the
> BOI forum about you.
> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102120
>
> Micah
>
Micah, Thank you for the info. I expected such a post. I have 2 unhappy

customers and they have a right to be upset. I am not a Faunna
subscriber
and don't know exactly how to post a reply. Feel free to post this
email if
you like. Mike has twisted the facts a bit.

In 2003 I bought 3.3 baby boas guarenteed 100% double het for albino
Leopard. The breeder Thomas/Andrea Barthleon of Austria sent me photos
of a
Pete Kahl Albino male breeding a Leopard Boa female. He made a point os

informing me the Leopard was "non Winner line". He also sent me photos
of
his litter of normal looking yet interesting looking babies. I
purchased the
3 pairs, all are obovious sibblings. Thomas was not licenced as a
exporter
so another "friend" of mine Juergen Schultz Stoppel of Germany handeled
the
shipping. I had already done a few good size boa deals with Juergen and
I
trusted his judgement of these boas and Thomas. About 2 years later I
found
I needed extra cash for some building projects. I realized the large
investment I had in these few snakes & offered a pair on kingsnake. I
never
claimed they were from Hans Winner as they are not. I consider Hans a
friend, We have met a number of times here in the U.S. & in Germany. I

understand he is the first to breed the Leopard Boa & create the trade
name
"Leopard Boa". I have purchased some very nice Leopard Boas from Hans.
However he is not the only European Boa breeder to produce a simmilar
color
& pattern boa that many people refer to as Leopard ( Winner Line &
Non-Winner Line) as I understand it is called over there.

I sold 1 pair to Mike Combes for $8k I also sold another pair to
another
customer that had placed an order years prior yet for various reasons
was
unable to take deliverly of his snakes ( moved, cages not ready,
changed
jobs, etc) he had changed his order a few times over the years. I kept
the
remaining ( smallest pair ) for my self in hopes of at least now still
being
one of the first in the U.S. to produce Albino Leopard Boas. Also the
snakes
I sold were the exact snakes offered in my ads on kingsnake and the
sizes as
listed in the ad.

This spring 2007 the (at this time still un-named )customer called &
said he
had produced a huge litter of normals from his pair. I trusted him yet
thought their must have been a mixed mateing on his part...my female
was
still gravid and I was expecting maybe a dozzen babies from a first
year
breeding of 1/2 Leopard boas, this guy had 30+ babies. I told him to
hang on
until mine or Mikes gave birth. I also contacted Thomas in Austria. He
said
maybe another breeder was mixed in?
About 6 weeks? later my female gave birth to 9 normals & 2 dead normals
& 2
slugs. I contacted Thomas who then said maybe Juergen had switched the

animals & sent me something else? Of course Juergen says that maybe
Thomas
gave him the wrong animals. I could see this was going nowhere. I
contacted
another European who knew both these guys. It appears that these days
both
are not welcome in the Boa circles over there.

I bought these 3 pairs in good faith & sold 2 of the pairs in good
faith. I
have been breeding boas 30 years. I have been ripped off by one or both

Europeans. Of course I am sorry the boas are not as prommised. I have
offered both of my customers replacements in excess of $10,000 of extra
nice
2006 F5 Hypos now 4ft long. I have sold snakes of this size and
quality for
$5,000-$8,000 each.
These are some of the best Hypos we have produced and all "hold backs"
to be
future breeders.
I have also offered larger numbers of 2007 F5 Hypos. I can fully
understand
their bitter taste for boas at this time, however I only have boas to
offer.
I am more than willing to try to make it up to them, however nice boas
are
what I can offer. I think back over the years of the fortune I have
spent
on reptiles that have died soon after purchase only to have the seller
say,
opps...sorry, & nothing. These did thrive & breed and I can offer a
much
higher value as replacements.

I am available to correspond with anyone on this matter as long as it
stays
polite and factual.
thanks, Jeff Gee

Captive Bred Wildlife Foundation
Jeff & Kim Gee
P.O. Box 16515
Portal, AZ 85632
Phone: (520) 558-2458
Fax: (520) 558-2411
www.cbwf.com

 

[Combs69]

Let me start by saying, I did not twist any facts, obviously I have a differant point of view then Jeff on this whole thing. I have no reason to twist facts, its pretty cut and dry.
Gregory - Im sure Jeff as in his reply stated, bought these boas in good faith thinking they were what they said. Im pretty sure when he sold them to me, he thought the same thing. The only paperwork, was what jeff wrote up himself. Not that it makes a differance anyway, except for the fact I do have something in writing saying these are 100% DH'S. I suppose you knew Jeff when he had a pet store outside of Detroit.

Chris - In the email below you will see where Jeff told me the parents lineage.
Also right before Jeff bought these another big breeder was going to buy them, but backed out when they saw some warning signs that these might not be what are said to be, lucky them!

Here is an email where Jeff responded to a few questions i had about the boas. I wish i still had the ad from KS that i bought them from, if I remember correctly, in that ad it stated the same thing.

Subj: Re: Hello part 2
Date: 11/29/2005 10:53:56 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: [email protected] (Jeff Gee)
To: [email protected]




Mike. Glad to hear the mites are gone, as I expected. Again sorry for that. Yes they were born in 2003.
Their father was a Albino from Pete Kahl , their mother was a Leopard Boa from Hans Winner. Both are good friends of mine. They were produced by another friend in Europe. We have had them about 2 years now & they have always been great feeders & never had any problems. In fact they are now looking much nicer than when babies, the colors are getting better with each shed. As babies they looked darker, I know both parents were choice animals, so I expect some very nice babies. Too bad you now want to sell them? I think they are a very good investment. I tried yesterday to call you & left a mesage. I hope this helps & if you need anything else just let me know.
thanks, Jeff

Captive Bred Wildlife Foundation
Jeff & Kim Gee
P.O. Box 16515
Portal, AZ 85632
Phone: (520) 558-2458
Fax: (520) 558-2411
www.cbwf.com

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 6:34 AM
Subject: Hello part 2


If i cant get you on the phone, maybe...maybe you can give me a couple answers that i thought you already did.

1. You told me these snakes were born in 2003... is this correct?

2. Who , and i mean a name... who produced these snakes?

I beleive you told me hans winner...

Im trying to sell the pair you sold me, and i like to be honest with the people i sell to and give them as much info as i can about what im selling them.
I cant just say a friend of jeff gee produced them... that wont cut it.

SOooo
I hope you can just give me those two simple bits of info.

Like i said, mites are gone, they are eating fine..

Thanks
Mike

As you can see, he indeed did tell me the mother was a leopard boa from Hans. You can also see we corresponded in a friendly manner and at no time did I ever become rude with him, or he with me. He did say things i strongly disagreed with, however, we kept it professional. Also I made sure Mites were gone and snakes were healthy before I tried to sell them, i only tried to sell them for a bit before i removed ad due to the fact I and others were not sure of thier actual genetic makeup. I didnt want to sell these snakes to someone else and them get the same results we did. I of course would have refunded the money no matter what it took to do it.

In his reply, he said the other guy had 30 babies, he had 25, and did in fact breed the correct animals, the guy is a Dr. and had no reason to breed anything other then what Jeff sold him. He as I wanted to be the first to produce the Albino Leopard.

In Jeffs ad for these boas, he stated the female was 54" she in fact when I got her was less then 48". She also was not the boa pictuered in the pictures he sent me or posted on the KS ad. When I asked him about this, he said it did not matter they were all the same size anyway.

He says he is offering replacemnets in excess of 10k, well this is partially true, he is indeed offering replacements, however thier value, in mine and others opinion is far less then 10k. He may have gotten those prices many years ago but no longer. They are some very beautiful animals, but they are in fact just hypos.

I can only speak for myself, but I do not have a bitter taste for boas now, just for the outcome of this deal.

Jeff's reply was pretty accurate, and I have no problems with him on a personal level, im not a person to hold a grudge, I just feel we deserve a refund of money. This situation is not the same as having spent thousands on a boa and it getting sick and dying, this is entirely differant, we bought these snakes for their genes and genes only. I certainly will be more cautious next time I buy for genes.

I hope this helped clear things up a bit. I am a firm beleiver in the ten commandments, one of them being "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor"... so if anything I say or said is not accurate I will do my best to correct it.

Im not sure how to post pictures in here, but I do have the actual pics he sent and and had on his ad, and pics of what he sent me, there is an obvious size differance in the two.

 

[Combs69]

After I posted I realised I made a mistake , He advertised the female at 40" and in fact when I got her she was less then 36" .
I appologise for the mistake. I dont know why i had 54" in my head , I wish she would have been 54"

Im also gonna try and put the pics in here, the one pic with two boas, is the one from his ad and the one he emailed me when I asked for a picture of the boas I was going to buy. The other is the female boa after about a month of me having her and putting a few rats in her. She is a nice looking boa, but not the boa pictured in what he sent me. The boa in the picture he sent me does look a good bit bigger then what recieved.The female in his pic is the bigger one. I would have posted the pics of the boas when I first got them but they were too big to post. After I had them a month, they looked much better.

Thanks
Mike

 

[xrayeric1993]

Legal Action

Again I will state, sue Jeff Gee. I laugh at the idea that he will replace the d.h. with f5 hypos. They are only worth what someone will give Jeff, therefore they are not worth $5000! After all they are just hypos. Jeff stop making excuses and give the man's money back now! After all, more important than the money is your reputation.

 

[Casey Hulse]

The only paperwork, was what jeff wrote up himself.

Is it possible to post a picture of the paperwork?
It would be very nice if the two of you could work something out so that you are satisfied.
I think it is very important for reputable breeders (which I believe Jeff is) to stand behind ANYTHING that they sell, whether they produce it or not.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I see a simple solution to this issue IF Jeff is willing. He stated this in the email Micah posted:

I have offered both of my customers replacements in excess of $10,000 of extra
nice 2006 F5 Hypos now 4ft long. I have sold snakes of this size and
quality for $5,000-$8,000 each.

There are two problems here, first the two customers do not want these boas for their collection. Second, I can believe Jeff has sold snakes like these for that amount, but that in no way means someone who is an unknown could get the same price for them.
Anyone who watches prices in the market knows that high profile breeders always command a higher price for a given morph than a smaller unknown breeder does.

The solution as I see it is this. Jeff sells the snakes he proposes to give the two unsatisfied customers, then passes the cash on to them. In both scenarios Jeff still gives up the animals for the satisfaction of his customers, but if he sells them and sends his buyers cash then they are completely satisfied.
I can understand fully if Jeff does not have that amount of cash on hand, but at the same time his buyers should not be forced to accept something they will have to try to sell themselves in order to recoup their lost investment, especially when it's entirely probable that they will not be able to get the same price for them on the open market.
If Jeff is willing to give up the snakes anyway in order to rectify this situation, then there is no real need for his customers to have to work for their money by selling the snakes when he could just sell them himself and repay them in cash.

 

[Clay Davenport]

One other point I'd like to make. Based solely on the email from Jeff that Micah posted, it seems that Jeff genuinely would like to make the situation right. He deserves the chance to do that, and until that chance is given the talk of lawsuits should be avoided.
If Jeff doesn't have the cash, he doesn't have it, and no court order is going to make it suddenly appear in his bank account. Wining a lawsuit does not guarantee any payment, and a judgment doesn't pay the bills.

Lawsuits create bad blood and until the potential defendant demonstrates that their is no other recourse besides legal action the issue shouldn't be threatened.
Threatening legal action against someone who appears to be willing to work with you isn't the best way to make them continue in that willingness.

 

[xrayeric1993]

Legal Action

Lawsuits do create bad blood, but so does taking someone's $8000. I'm sure you would feel differently if it was your money. It is true that a lawsuit will not insure payment, but one could put a lien on any property that Jeff may have in order to "persuade" him to pay off the debt. I know that if I had inadvertantly defrauded anyone (I don't believe he purposefully did) I would make the situation right by any means possible.If he can guarantee his genetics then he should not advetise them as 100% d.h. I do not consider offering the hypos as compensation. Albino leopards might of fetched up around $15000 each and all he wants is his money back.The best hypo on the market in my opinion is worth only $1000, not $5000. No one should defend Jeff's actions in this matter. He may be a"good guy" , but his actions are not suggesting this fact. The bottom line is that this situation will affect all breeders and hobbyists. Anyone reading these posts (including myself) will think twice before purchasing such high dollar items even from reputable breeders. If Jeff can treat a customer like this, perhaps other reputable breeders will follow suit. This in turn will lower prices and professional breeders who are trustworthy will suffer the consequences.

 

[ravensgait]

Well if the Hypo's are worth that much why doesn't Jeff sell a few and refund what he owes?? How hard is it to open an account here and post..Randy

 

[Combs69]

I agree. I am and have given Jeff the chance to make this right. I agree, sell the hypos and send me the money. I did tell him I would try and work with him, I just dont want any more snakes from him .
Here is the paperwork. Its kinda blurry from resizing to fit, but you can clearly read what I paid and for what.
Thanks
Mike

 

[liquidleaf]

The attachment does not work. Try uploading your photo to the photo gallery, and then post the link using IMG tags.

 

[Clay Davenport]

Lawsuits do create bad blood, but so does taking someone's $8000. I'm sure you would feel differently if it was your money.

Actually no I wouldn't. I never said don't think of suing him at all, I merely stated he should be given the opportunity to make it right without having to resort to a lawsuit.

I do not consider offering the hypos as compensation. Albino leopards might of fetched up around $15000 each and all he wants is his money back.The best hypo on the market in my opinion is worth only $1000, not $5000.

I agree, offering hypos is not an acceptable means of compensation. However, you opinion nor mine has any effect on what Jeff's snakes are worth and what they are not. This is why he should take care of the selling of them and use the proceeds of those sales to pay off his two customers. The goal would be a set amount of cash, not a perceived value of snakes. Perceptions vary, cash is cash.

No one should defend Jeff's actions in this matter. He may be a"good guy" , but his actions are not suggesting this fact.

I'm not defending him one way or another. His actions aren't suggesting anything, but his email is suggesting that he is willing to offer compensation. I'm just suggesting that the compensation not be in the form of boas, but in the form of cash gained from the sale of the boas.
If Jeff is willing, as it appears he is, to give these customers boas as compensation, I can't see why he wouldn't be willing to sell those boas himself and simply give them the cash.
All I'm saying is he should be given that opportunity before the subject of lawsuits is breached.
We live in a sue happy society and this is an example of that. In all aspects of life, and very often right here on the BOI one of the first suggestions made is to sue. I suppose this is an artifact of living in a country with 70% of the world's lawyers and 5% of the world's population.
Sure he could initiate a lawsuit. He'd be lucky to find a lawyer who could adequately explain reptilian genetics to a jury or a judge. Then IF he won the suit, and IF he ever actually got a monetary award he could then hand a very healthy chunk of it over to the lawyer.
No matter how you look at it, it is in the best interest of everyone involved to find an acceptable means of settling this out of court as long as Jeff is willing to make amends without that measure.
Lawsuits are always an option, but should never be the first option as is all too often the case.

 

[xrayeric1993]

Congrats

Congratulations on your obvious wealth. Unlike you Clay , I can't afford to flush $8000. The emails between Jeff and Mr. Combs suggest that Jeff has no intention of paying Mike back his $8000. Instead he would rather give him a few hypos and call it even. Again I will state that the hypos are only worth what someone is willing to pay and judging how long his hypos have been for sale , they are not worth $5000.His actions are absolutely suggesting he is a bad businessman! I'm not sure how you can defend him, unless you are a close friend (and I really don't care). I will never buy from Jeff and I hope many others don't either. This is the last I'm going to post on the matter.

I would like to hear from others (other than Clay) on how they feel about the situation, if this makes them distrustful of hets, and if they would buy expensive hets from Jeff.

 

[Martino Reptiles]

Again I will state that the hypos are only worth what someone is willing to pay and judging how long his hypos have been for sale , they are not worth $5000.

My personal opinion on that is exactly what you stated. Although they may be "F5" Hypos and the fifth generation in whatever the heck he is breeding over there, it doesn't necessarily make it a quality animal. I've seen amazing looking F1's and i've seen some garbage looking F3's. Selective breeding in this instance isn't about just breeding multiple generations of crap, it's about refining the morph with quality animals (regarding the Hypo gene in boas) of the same trait.

I will never buy from Jeff and I hope many others don't either. This is the last I'm going to post on the matter.

And neither will I for that matter.

I would like to hear from others (other than Clay) on how they feel about the situation, if this makes them distrustful of hets, and if they would buy expensive hets from Jeff.

I'll share a quick story with you of when I met Jeff personally back in 1994. Before all the hype and enthusiam of the designer boas, Jeff never really "knew" what he had until a few other big boas breeders at the time got him "up to speed" so to speak. His Orange-Tail bloodline was one of the first designer hypo boa genes available to the market, but initially (which suprises many people) they were very affordable. Jeff sold "het for hypos" for $150.00 a pair, and the actual Hypos for $300-$700.00 an animal. Sound too good to be true? Indeed it was for the enthusiasts at the time, especially because many at the time did not know where the designer boas would progress.

In 1993 I spoke to Jeff and asked him to hold a single Hypo male for me to pick up at an upcoming high-end reptile show in Philadelphia, PA (entrance fee ~ $40.00 to even get through the door). I had met some amazing people at that meet including Tracy Barker, Steve Osborne, and Peter Kahl to name a few (all of which were great people). I was there to purchase some het. for Albino Ball Pythons from Steve Osborne, as well as pick up the F1 Make Hypo Boa from Jeff. When I arrive at the meet, the price of the male I wanted went from $500.00 to $1500.00 for the animal. I asked Jeff what was this about, and he said that the market now commanded that price, and that my $500.00 wasn't going to get me the Hypo Male. But, as a token of his gratitude for coming to the meet and meeting him, he'd gladly sell me some "Het. for Hypos" for $500.00 a pair.



His table was directly beside another big breeders table, and they both heckled at me as I left with just my het for Albino Ball Python males.



My experience with Jeff? Disgusting if that shows his character. He seems to have a thing for selling "het. for nothing" animals and this story hit a nerve with me considering he still has not changed in all these years.

A law suit is a viable option, and he is certainly no rookie when it comes to being in the courtroom. Be sure to ask Jeff about the $25,000.00 law suit he had in the mid 90's over some Aldabra Tortises he sold DOA to a prestiegous breeder in California. The breeder sued Jeff, and won back his $25K after Jeff was found neglectful in his shipping practices.

I wish the victims in this matter all the best and hope everything works out for you. It's just a shame people like this continue to be in business...

- Vic

 

[Clay Davenport]

Congratulations on your obvious wealth. Unlike you Clay , I can't afford to flush $8000.

Please, by all means, point out to me where I said he should just flush the 8 grand and forget about it.
Since you either refuse to read my entire post, or else just fail to comprehend what I am saying, I will make one last effort to explain it.
I never said a lawsuit should not even be considered, I only said it shouldn't be the first option taken.
To shout lawsuit at the first hint of a bad deal is pointless. It only makes sense to try to work it out privately first.

The emails between Jeff and Mr. Combs suggest that Jeff has no intention of paying Mike back his $8000. Instead he would rather give him a few hypos and call it even.

What I see in the email is a willingness to do something about the situation which is FAR more than we have seen from the majority of bad deals on the BOI.
I do agree that the offer of the hypos is unacceptable. Just so you caught that, I DO AGREE. If Jeff is willing to take the further step of selling the boas himself and sending his two customers cash, would that not be an acceptable solution? Yet you just want to yell lawsuit and not even offer that opportunity.

I'm not sure how you can defend him, unless you are a close friend (and I really don't care).

Once again I will ask you to please point out where I defended Jeff. I have defended NOTHING in this deal other that the buyers right to compensation.
I have ONLY suggested that Jeff be allowed the opportunity to make restitution before he is led to the gallows. If he refuses to do any better than offer the hypos, I'll lead the lynch mob.
I don't know Jeff. I've never even corresponded with him, and I'd be genuinely surprised if he even recognized my name if it was mentioned to him.
Jeff most certainly owes his customers a refund. He was ripped off too, but that is between him and his supplier. Once he sold the "hets" he took responsibility for their representation and should be held accountable for it.

I admit I do dislike the lawsuit mentality. I don't sue anybody for anything. If someone ripped me off for 8 grand and refused to make it right then I'd be on a plane to see them and they'd live out their days in a wheelchair, but that's me.
The majority of people aren't willing to take care of their own business and for those the courts are the alternative, but there's no reason to go straight to the lawyers until you see that there will be no resolution any other way.

I would like to hear from others (other than Clay) on how they feel about the situation, if this makes them distrustful of hets, and if they would buy expensive hets from Jeff.

I'm sorry you had to hear from me again, perhaps if you read this post fully and realize that we actually agree in principle there won't be any need for me to post further.

 

[dberes]

I agree with everything Clay has said in his above posts.

Vic,

You say Jeff has a thing for selling "het for nothing" animals, but in 1993 the hypomelanistic gene was still being figured out. Buying hets on any new morph is a risk if the genetics are still being figured out. It generally takes quite a few breedings to get the exact genetics down. Adults to siblings, siblings to siblings, siblings to normals, etc.. I understand your frustration with Jeff for raising his prices on the hypos, but did you two ever verbally agree on the price of $500 for the male that he was going to hold for you over the phone or did you just ask him to hold a male (no price talked about)?