JeffB apparently doesn't like me having KINGSNAKES.COM...

[Adam Block]

Well, Jeff is such a fargin ID 10 T (computer nerd thing, they call things an ID 10 T error) you can't help but be blunt. I don't know what got my message deleted all together however I know it had a lot of bleeps in it.

I also know that you can talk about pussy willows and riding an ass into the grand canyon without any bleeps so maybe that's why my message is gone. Not used in that same context may have seeming added new meaning to the words.

Could also be that Rich is protecting me from something cause I like guns but I guess we'll never know...

MuuuuHahahahahaha Muuuuhahahahahaaaa

Naw just playing, need to take the BOI a little more light hearted. This thread has made two things clear to me.

1) If you say the sky is green you can find some arse to agree with you.

2) Some people just don't get it. After 15 years (well maybe one but felt like 15) of beatings here this has suddenly clicked. No matter what! Somebody isn't going to get it and typing the same thing 75 different ways isn't going to help.

New motto: Be blunt and to the point!

 

[WebSlave]

Thanks to some help from a friend, I have another item to add to the timeline I posted in my previous message:

• June 4, 2003 - OnlineHobbyist.com applied for a trademark on "kingsnake.com". That was six (6) days after I had "kingsnakes.com" transferred to my name. As of this date, the trademark has not been granted.

Oops! Sorry about that! I had those graphics images copied over to the new server and this flip flopping of the DNS pointers still going on broke the links.

 

[Blackwater Reptiles]

so.... for my pea sized brain.....

If I understand the previous legal code stuff accurately..... is it pretty safe to say that the application to "Trade Mark" "Kingsnake.com" will in all probability be denied??? And is it also pretty safe to say that, based on the timing of all of these legal actions, that this is a case of someone filing legal application for trade mark in an effort to be a nuisance to you (Rich Z.) ?

I cannot fathom a person being so preoccupied with giving another person such a pain in the neck, for the sole purpose of revenge for some perceived wrong (failure to comply with a demand that the infamous "Adam Block thread" be removed from Fauna Classifieds).... I would say that is is borderline paranoid behavior, that is if I were qualified to make that sort of analysis....

One last point.... a clarification on my previous comments directed at Jerry.... No... I do not live in a fantasy world where everyone is "kinder and gentler" in the way that they conduct business.... I do believe, however, that is is possible to succeed in business through honesty, integrity and hard work.... Perhaps people who lie, cheat, steal, intimidate and monopolize their markets may make more money in the short term, but (and it's a big butt) I have always believed that there is only one thing that cannot be taken away from a person... and that's your integrity. You can give it away... lose it by rolling around in the gutter with the con-men and women that this hobby seems to be overrun with, but there is no way that it can be taken from you. If you refuse to be a party to these kind of actions (the list is well documented of which I speak), then at the end of the day, you can pillow your head and go to sleep with a clear conscience. If a person chooses to treat others in any other way than that which it is right to treat others, then their rewards will not only be fleeting, but I am afraid to think of the fate that is in store for them, ultimately, in the end. Life is too short to try to push your way through it and not one person will give a darn about Kingsnake.com in another twenty years..... at least that's what I believe....

Shame on those who are too self important to laugh at themselves when they make a mistake, and who are too insecure to conduct business honestly and fairly without fear of somehow "losing." Life is not a game to be won or lost at all cost. It is an experience that should be enjoyed, not endured......

I said that.

 

[sychoram]

Hey Jerry, when you roll over in the morning does Jeff have arse breath??

Here's the bad thing about all this, no matter who wins it makes all herpers seem like whinning crying little babies. Who the heck would want to join a group they percieve to be a bunch of immature arse holes??? I don't know Rich, talked to him once on the phone, and don't know Jeff, but who cares!!! In the long run the only ones who will win in this are the lawyers and everyone else in the "trade" loses.

Rich,
I did find one interesting point in your discussion, are you telling us that you purposely list an auction that you already had a buyer for and listed the reserve too high to let anyone else get it?? What happened if someone actually met your reserve?? Who would you have screwed it that deal?? (regardless or intentional or not???)

Now, bash me if you want, but read this with an open mind and all of you will see that even the crazies like me are sometimes right.

On a personal note: I could care less if kingsnake.com or kingsnakes.com existed or not. If Jeff folds up tomorrow I haven't lost or gained a damn thing, If Jeff makes a millon dollars tomorrow, I still haven't lost of gained a damn thing. Now if Jeff wants to kick part of that million my way, my corn collection will thank him, my family will thank him, but I still wouldn't care if his site was there of not.

Lovingly
Big Jim

 

[WebSlave]

I did find one interesting point in your discussion, are you telling us that you purposely list an auction that you already had a buyer for and listed the reserve too high to let anyone else get it?? What happened if someone actually met your reserve?? Who would you have screwed it that deal?? (regardless or intentional or not???)

Yes, that is correct. Alex Hue and I thought it would be great advertising for his taking over ownership of the new site, yet he also fully realized that there was a possibility that someone else could outbid him for the domain name. This was all fully known to him at the time.

Matter of fact, at one point I suggested that I would prefer to not even do the auction, because of the possibility of a bunch of emails and hassles concerning details of the auction, but Alex indicated that he preferred to have the auction take place. At that point he could have bought the domain name outright and I would not have run the auction. But, I was perfectly willing to give him a hand in this and help with advertising the domain name for him in this manner.

It was a true auction. If someone had bid the reserve price, yes whoever that was would have owned the domain name. Pending this slight delay in the plans caused by JeffB, of course. No one would have gotten "screwed", as you put it. Alex and I both agreed to this plan, and we well understood the risk an auction entails.

 

[sychoram]

Just checkin'. The statement set kinda funny in the pit of my stomach. I may have worded it wrong, but you have cleared up that funny feeling in my stomach.

Lovingly
Big Jim

 

[Inside_Out]

Well Now that all is said and done. I'm wondering if the auction had not been done. Which to me seems like a bad choice at this point. Would have all the B.S. over the domain name come up.

I mean if traffic was truly what you were after to get the domain on the up and up. Why not run a few banner ads. Post it on all your boards. Heck everytime something is posted I go check it out.

This means of traffic that if I'm not mistaken was said to pull a laugh or two. Plus, Get Jeff to do what he did seems to me in a way delayed the plans of both people involved. Was it really worth it?

 

[Inside_Out]

Tried to edit the above post. Forgot my full name at the end.











Grady Robinson

 

[gmherps]

So, Weblave, was this all some big joke at Jeff B's expense?

 

[JungleHabitats]

I dont think it was a joke

While yeah i would say Rich enjoyed the thought of owning the kingsnakes.com name for his personell reasons i think more then anything it was what he said helping a friend out of a debt owed to him that otherwise would have made a heavy burden on that person to pay off a debit. Now with the original redirect some can say yeah it was laughs i see it as that and bringing more traffic to his site , if not that why even bother having the name to begin with ? Personally if i would have had the name i to if knowing how would have it redirect to my site just the same . Would it be because Jeff had the singular version .. no just because i think there are many people that may very well NOT yet know of kingsnake.com and that when doing a search for anything snake related it would showup as a site Then with the descriptive term of Custom built cages in it it would be one more avenue for bringing potential buinsness to my site. Now with saying that lets just say i owned that domain name i am in noway in competiton with Jeff other then i have a free forums setup now but my MAIN focus is on Boas and cageing nothing more the forums are for me to have something to do when i have nothing to do plain and simple . would jeff have done the same with me ? i think he wouldnot have done it because to him he doesnt know me from a hole in the wall Rich he does know and has a great deal of animosity for .

 

[Hues1]

I mean if traffic was truly what you were after to get the domain on the up and up. Why not run a few banner ads. Post it on all your boards. Heck everytime something is posted I go check it out.

Its called testing the waters......prior to taking possesion of anything, wouldnt it be nice to know the realistic potential of said item ?

I co-own a couple of auto dealerships.....and I've never met a customer who didnt want to go on a test drive before they purchased an auto from us.

banner ads and other means of advertising (especially for a domain/website) are only good as the site it was intended to advertise. Kingsnakes.com is not a operating site as of yet.

I didnt even know kingsnakes.com was available til Rich pointed it out to me and his ownership of it. I at the time was on a domain leasing/buying spree...I leased 8 or 10 more to add to my stable just in one evening and was so excited at all the possibilites with these new domains that I decided to make Rich and offer on Kingsnakes.com also.

The auction was put up with the understanding that if my offer was beaten, then Rich would've and could've sold to anyone else. But as far as we were concerned, my initial offering was not going to be beaten. Why ? because it was a very substantial amount. I will say this also......Rich's main drive behind selling this domain was because his wife WANTED a NEW TRUCK this year and he felt it his husbandly duty to oblige. The offer I made him for kingsnakes.com would've helped him purchase the truck for her. Otherwise as it has been said already, he did not have any intentions of selling it. It was NOT DONE for the sole purpose of tweaking Jeff.

I will say this clearly here.....the auction was placed as a way for me to see how many "hits" it would get and how much attention it would draw. I checked the auction DAILY to see how many page views it was receiving. The auction was never placed with the intention of doing anything but that.

As far as I'm concerned, this was a BUSINESS DEAL, Rich had something I wanted.....I made him an offer on it, he accepted it, and in doing so was obligated to show me the potential of this domain/item.

In doing so...the auction was conceived. Was it done JUST to tweak Jeff ? NOT by a long shot, it was done PRIMARILY for my benefit...and as I've said above...I dont know anyone who purchases an item prior to "test driving" it.

 

[WebSlave]

I mean if traffic was truly what you were after to get the domain on the up and up. Why not run a few banner ads. Post it on all your boards. Heck everytime something is posted I go check it out.

Well actually I did do just that. I had banner ads running on all of my sites and I even posted a notice here in the BOI about the domain name being for sale. Once the auction started, I linked those all to the auction itself on ReptiBid.

I also had banner ads running on other people's sites about this action as well. ReptiBid had a BIG notice on the auction site's front page about this auction.

The last time I checked the auction stats, there were well over 3,000 hits on the auction from viewers.

I kinda wish now I hadn't deleted it all from my banner software, otherwise I could quote exactly how many impressions and clicks my own banner ads got on that sale/auction.

What more did I need to do?

 

[Adam Block]

I co-own a couple of auto dealerships

his wife WANTED a NEW TRUCK

Sounds like a pretty odd situation, you own an auto dealerships and Rich wanted a new truck for his wife. I "co-owned" a car lot many years ago myself. Very small but even I could have gotten any car/truck somebody wanted.

So don't tell me you deal Saabs and he wants a GMC cause I've been there and know you can get any auto you want in 3-5 weeks.

Don't tell me you live too far cause Rich goes to shows up north and for a deal that fit you both I'm sure you could have even met half way.

I don't really care and I'm sure there's an easy way to explain this but it's starting to look like one of my stories.

This was meant to tweak Jeff, why else put an auction up and post it on the BOI? That didn't tell you anything, heck, I looked at the auction 10-15 times to see what it was selling for. Even my wife saw it was for sale and looked. That was no measure of traffic! Only a fool would buy it was for any other reason then to tweak Jeff.

Also, if it was already sold to Alex I think a bad guy post should be started for Rich, I find it very selfish to fool people, get their hopes up of maybe owning it and just wasting EVERYBODIES time to check the "realistic potential of said item".

Whatever, I don't care but if it looks like a fish, tastes like a fish and smells like a fish I can tell you for fact there's something fishy in this story.

Alex, the more I think of it, the less I think of you! Since you own a car lot let's make it easy for you to understand. If I came in and made you an offer on a car, then told you I wanted you to list it on eBay so I could see the "realistic potential" would you agree?

No, you would say I was an idiot! It would be extreemly unfair to buyers and just a waste of time at the expense of all parties. It's a domain name, if you want a "test drive" have it forwarded to your site, don't offer it for sale.

Rich, I just think this whole thing has made you look worse then you know. Shoulda left it at you tweaking Jeff, much better then you screwing with people to get an idea of "the traffic".

Let me ask this, what was the res price set at? I bet that isn't our business right?

 

[Hues1]

Oh Adam....where do I begin

Sounds like a pretty odd situation, you own an auto dealerships and Rich wanted a new truck for his wife. I "co-owned" a car lot many years ago myself. Very small but even I could have gotten any car/truck somebody wanted.

Let me see.....I made a cash offer, so what I really should've done was offer lets say a truck which would've been MORE than my cash offer ( even at my cost ), then have to ship it from Michigan to Florida...$1100.00 via AutoBahn Transport. Or.....oooh.....oooh......oooh.....Offered Rich "credit" in the amount of my offer towards the purchase of this truck...ands thats if I had something he wanted.

Adam....sorry to tell you this, but unlike the lot you might've co-owned, we run a No haggle No hassle lot. You are familiar with what a No Haggle No Hassle lot is...dont you ?

The truck Rich wanted for the wife was in the 30k-40k price range even at my cost.....then you tack on the $1100.00 shipping fee/out of state temp. plate fee / temp. registration fee / and temp. title fee.... you end up with a truck that would've been less expensive to purchase locally.....because the markup on those particular trucks is ALOT less than the fees would've cost purchasing it from us. You are familiar with manufacturers H/B.....correct ? Because if you are, then you would also know that most FRANCHISED dealerships will work with you on pricing according to this H/B they might receive from the manufacturer....well the H/B for Florida Franchised dealers of this particular make and model are greater than those of Michigan dealers because Florida dealers SELL MORE and are allocated more....which you should also understand....correct ???

Also, if it was already sold to Alex I think a bad guy post should be started for Rich, I find it very selfish to fool people, get their hopes up of maybe owning it and just wasting EVERYBODIES time to check the "realistic potential of said item".

Ummm....Adam, please look at my post a little closer.......

The auction was put up with the understanding that if my offer was beaten, then Rich would've and could've sold to anyone else

Did you happen to miss this part of the post ?

Alex, the more I think of it, the less I think of you! Since you own a car lot let's make it easy for you to understand

Thats great to know Adam !!! considering I just received this e-mail from you......

>>>>>Subj: Fauna
Date: 12/04/2003 5:34:24 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Hey Alex, don't take any offence to my post. As I said in the IM I sent you
something just doesn't sound right there.. You seem like a good guy and
I've heard good things about you not to mention you have a great looking
site. Something however just rubbed me the wrong way with that whole deal.
I like Rich but this crap doesn't sound right so I had to get that post off
my chest.

Just wanted to let you know it wasn't personal or out of a lack of respect.

Adam Block <<<<<<

Sounds like somebody playing God and the Devil at the same time....NO ?

No, you would say I was an idiot! It would be extreemly unfair to buyers and just a waste of time at the expense of all parties. It's a domain name, if you want a "test drive" have it forwarded to your site, don't offer it for sale.

You're absolutely right ! You are an idiot ! Just for clarification purposes.....if you read my post in more detail...you would've also realized that if Rich would've been offered more money via the auction or because of it....then so be it. I knew I might've lost the chance to purchase it at my offered amount, but then again...neither one of us figured anybody else was going to come close to my offer.

It's a domain name, if you want a "test drive" have it forwarded to your site, don't offer it for sale

So...okay I get it now, what I should've done was have Rich use Kingsnakes.com as a jump to my own site ? correct ?

So...all the people who might've gotten to my site via kingsnakes.com.....might've also gotten the idea that I owned that domain ? correct ? thats a great train of thought there Adam...doesnt it defeat the whole purpose of the "test drive" ? So virtually what you're saying is that I should've had people thinking it was already in my stable ? Well....that might something you might do, but its a no no for me.

If I came in and made you an offer on a car, then told you I wanted you to list it on eBay so I could see the "realistic potential" would you agree?

Adam, do you really believe that something like a domain name which is only worth as much as what a person is willing to pay for it is comparable to lets say....a car, with actual hard parts, labor, setup, tool & die, fabrication, paint, design, and production costs that can be itemized ? Get real Adam.......show me where the Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price is affixed on any Domain !

By the way, I have never posted anything on any of the threads where you were the subject...why because I dont know you, but I will say this....

the more I think of it, the less I think of you!

Toodles........

 

[Dragondad]

Bad Deal or not

In the course of a business deal when the two parties involved choose a course of action(whether everyone else in the world understands or not) it is their choice. I can understand Alex wanting to test the hits, lets face it the hits are what a web site is all about. With Rich putting up the notices and banners he did help establish Kingsnakes.com in peoples minds(whether the actual buyer ended up being Alex or someone else). And since it was and auction Alex would always have the opportunity to up the bid if he choose to really really want the name. So I see nothing strange in the request or manner of moving this to auction.

Given the timing of the move to register the trademark of Kingsnake.com I feel Jeff B must have been aware of Richs ownership if kingsnakes. My thought on this and I believe it has been expressed by others is this: if anyone else in this world(except Adam of course) had owned and put up for auction Kingsnakes. com would Jeff had pursued the actions. I dont think so, I think it has to do with the ongoing web wars.

Now for Jerry, I hate to believe that the legal system is controlled only by the people with deep pockets (sadly it may be but I am an idealist). When potential suits are determined by a fear of the legal cost not the right and wrong of the case we have become a screwed up society. But then again what other business do you have to pay up front for the service and thats whather you win or loose. Anybody for a guarantee on the legal contract "I will win or your money back". Or how about pay me in chickens, pigs, corn or any other barter because I will represent you based on the premise that justice is blind to your financial situation.

And Alex, I live in Grand Rapids, and am looking for a auto(seriously) maybe we can make a package deal buy one car and fill the back seat or bed with ball pythons...(joking). Or maybe something comes to mind about car salesmen and snakes.....

 

[KNOBTAIL]

MICHAEL, you are absolutely right!

this is a screwed up society. But the fact remains, money will buy the best that the best have to offer. I can appreciate your idealistic values, everybody does, but until you enter the legal system you begin to realize that its not about right or wrong. Depending upon whom you are litigating, its very easy to get brused to the bone. These things usually start out simple, but the deeper one gets , the greater the expense. The question really is how far is Jeff willing to take this? What additional persuits will he take from that starting point. ?

You can plainly see, that if Jeff were to loose in arbitration, would he drop any further persuits ? Your post certainly has merit, but ideals are left for the philosophers, and I choose not to follow that path. My approach is more Machievellian. JERRY TRESSER

 

[dwedeking]

Site traffic for a community based website is highly dependent upon public opinion. Both websites are community based websites. KS is more dependent upon it's traffic as there is no substantial revenue from sale of products or services other than the advertising. This site is much more cost effective to run as my impression is there is not a "staff" behind the scenes that must be supported financially.

While I agree that the legal system is skewed to those that can afford to tie up others in litigation, afford to hire more able lawyers you must at least come close on your legal arguments. Registering for a trademark after the question arises is not even close. By a long shot.

While it is impossible to determine what the true intent was with the auction (though everyone has opinions one way or the other) and the purpose of owning kingsnakes.com it did serve the purpose of goading JeffB into making a public display of himself. Rich is an advantage here in that he seems to know exactly which buttons to push on JeffB (so therefore has control of the situation) and also has the luxury of not having to win, he only has to not lose. Public opinion is an irrational creature and while people as a whole do like to back a winner everyone laughs at the joker. So while people may still support KS.com while it's on top (delivering a viable community, pushing sales for advertisers etc) the draconian actions that are laughable and silly will erode any long term support, which will be fatal if JeffB ever needs to turn the site around (for example if he were to lose the ability to deliver to advertisers).

 

[WebSlave]

Let me ask this, what was the res price set at? I bet that isn't our business right?

Yes, Adam, you are right. It is no one else's business. The seller of an auction can optionally disclose this figure, but it is certainly not an obligation.

I have engaged in more auctions then I can remember, and I think I am fully conversant with the rules, standards, and obligations involved. I even ran an auction board for a period of time, so this knowledge was handy to have in order to effectively manage the use of that site by the people utilizing it.

A reserve price in an auction is that price set where the seller is not obligated to sell the item to anyone whom does not meet that minimum level. It is done ALL of the time in auctions. Check Ebay and see how many of the auctions have reserve prices on them. There is nothing I did that is inconsistent with the rules of engagement in an auction. If someone had met my reserve price, heck it would have been a pleasant surprise to me, and likely an unpleasant surprise to Alex, but I would have been obligated to sell the domain to the person who won the auction. Alex knew the ground rules in this and was prepared for this eventuality.

No, you would say I was an idiot! It would be extreemly unfair to buyers and just a waste of time at the expense of all parties.

Yes, Adam, perhaps I would. You apparently believe that I put up the auction as a public service or in some other manner in which what I care what people would think about my reserve price really matters to me. Sorry, but that is not the case at all. When Alex Hue made his offer to me, I decided I wouldn't mind selling the domain name at all if I could get a decent price for it. Heck, who wouldn't? But I did not get that domain name with the intention of selling it. I got it with the intention of having it. Up until Alex made his offer, I really had no idea what I was going to ultimately do with that domain name.

Whatever....

The facts of this situation have been plainly stated and are here in black and white (or black and green, I guess), and your belief is not necessary nor required for those facts to remain facts.

Now the question is, did the advertising and exposure the auction provided work? Well I put up a play forum on there with a hit counter, and even taking into consideration that there were MANY lost hits during that abortive server move I did this past weekend, the site has gotten 1668 hits since 11/27, fully a week ago. Take a look at FaunaTopSites and determine the average number of hits per day that the majority of the sites there that have been established MUCH LONGER are getting and compare them with what KINGSNAKES.COM is getting right now. KINGSNAKES.COM would be rated around 52 out of the 258 sites listed there. Not bad, I would say, for a site that now has basically NO content at all on it. Yes, people are coming to that domain name just to see what is there.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I just want to address the question of the ethics of this auction:

The ONLY way that this auction could be construed as a bad deal is from the perspective of a buyer having made a bona fide offer. In other words, if Alex had made Rich an offer on the domain name, and Rich said, "Wow! That's a serious offer, but I think I want to set this up as an auction to see if I could get someone to bid against you and jack up the selling price!" then Alex MIGHT have a bone to pick with Rich . . .

BUT . . .

That's not what happened!!! Alex WANTED the auction to occur, because he was interested in drumming up interest int he site before he took it over (mission accomplished). Rich had a real auction on the offering of the site, and Alex merely put in the first private bid. If there were to be no higher bidders, no one needed to know what that sale price was. Rich stipulated the situation (that he had a previous offer) before the auction even started, and said that he had a purposefully high reserve that had to met if another buyer were to get the site.

Where is the problem??? I wouldn't have given Rich $2 for the name, but if Alex wants it, GREAT! If Rich could have gotten someone else to outbid Alex, GREAT for Rich!

No one got hurt, and no one was dishonest here. Everything else is just background noise, folks!

 

[Wilomn]

I have noticed an interesting, hmmmmmmmm, let's call it a phenomenon for lack of a better discription at this time.

Often times, and yes I've seen it in person, a person who cheats on a spouse or signifigant other is very quick to accuse that very spouse or signifigant other of doing the very same thing, often times when that same spouse or signifgant other has been nothing but loyal.

I have several times seen someone caught stealing accuse others of the same thing, often to the point of absuridity.

I have many times seen known liars accuse others of not telling the truth. Often times the accused were not suspected of anything even remotely related to falsehoods and yet these accusations came right out.

It seems that often times when someone is guilty of something, be it infidelity, or theft, or just plain lying, they are often times most vociferous in the accusations of others whom they THINK are acting in like manner.

Makes me go, HMMMMMMMM wonder why that cheater/thief/liar is accusing this guy of that.

Seems to be some of that happening here.

I don't see any problem with Rich or anything he did here. I don't see any problem with Alex or anythng he did here. I don't know why jerry can't just let it go with his speculations about how deep jeff's pockets are or why his OPINION on this is so much more valid than the people actually involved in the domaine and its eventual disposition.

Rich is a big boy and I'm pretty sure he can take care of himself. I don't think it will make a rat's whisker of difference to 99% of us who read at Fauna what happens with the name.

I fail to see any wrong here. Nose tweaking is not necessarily wrong. In fact if adam and jerry check their digits real carefully they may well find some Webslave snot on them. Unlike some he doesn't get quite so bent from it.

This whole thing is really out there if anyone actually thinks Rich and Alex did anything wrong or unethical. Ohhhhhh Noooooo, I used that word, ethic. Oh well, I guess it just goes back to the beginning of this post, those who think/do a certain way almost always think everyone else does too.

Consider the sourses of the disparaging comments here and you'll see what I mean.

Wes Pollock