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JENNIFER HARRISON GOOD GAL!!!

RedDevil said:
I never so much as implied to Jen that she would owe me anything if the Stripe was put down.

I was also originally under the impression that my snake was going to be put down aswell. I actually made it a point to try not talking to Jen because I knew I'd have her save it if she offered. It was a complete surprise to me when she asked when she could send it back, because I never asked it to be saved to begin with.

As for speaking up about "my part in this" - what exactly was there to say? I sent an animal to her. Her collection got a virus. That's about all there was to it - nothing to do with me not being forthcoming. Hell, I didn't even have to clear up that little misunderstanding above. I could have just as easily ignored that if I was trying to hide something.

Either way, I have absolutely no more room for snakes right now, so I would not take you up on any snakes regardless. Although I do fail to see how I'm the only one unable to do what is needed when Jen spared a snake for herself aswell.

Thank you for clearing up a few issues in my train of thought. I didn't mean to sound as if I were accusing you of anything, honestly. Sometimes, my words just don't come across the way I want them to. I meant that I hadn't read any posts from you (when Jen was going though this) actively saying to put yours down too. I don't think anyone feels comfortable destroying someone else's property (but that's just me).

You mean there's another snake alive in Jen's possession?...sigh.
 
deborahbroadus said:
Thank you for clearing up a few issues in my train of thought. I didn't mean to sound as if I were accusing you of anything, honestly. Sometimes, my words just don't come across the way I want them to. I meant that I hadn't read any posts from you (when Jen was going though this) actively saying to put yours down too. I don't think anyone feels comfortable destroying someone else's property (but that's just me).

You mean there's another snake alive in Jen's possession?...sigh.

I do tend to read too much into things, so it is most likely my fault I took your post that way.

While I do agree about how it is destroying someone else's property, I simply assumed (wrongfully) that my snake was included when she stated they were all being put down. I should have had her go back and put mine down when I found out she wasn't going to, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. Yes, I am that weak.

She has one snake of hers still. I'm pretty sure she has mentioned it in this thread a few times.
 
Jen,
When do you plan on shipping this animal back to Tommy? Let us know what date you plan on shipping this animal out, as well as what shipping company you are going to use. If this virus is airborne I would like to make sure that there is no chance it is in a plane, truck, or hub with any animals heading my way.

In fact if Tommy did not ask you to save this animal and is willing to take the loss of his 1. G-Stripe without holding you financially responsible, just freeze it. Throw it in a pillow case with that other snake you kept and put it next to your ice cream :ack2:.
 
RJK890 said:
Jen,
When do you plan on shipping this animal back to Tommy? Let us know what date you plan on shipping this animal out, as well as what shipping company you are going to use. If this virus is airborne I would like to make sure that there is no chance it is in a plane, truck, or hub with any animals heading my way.

In fact if Tommy did not ask you to save this animal and is willing to take the loss of his 1. G-Stripe without holding you financially responsible, just freeze it. Throw it in a pillow case with that other snake you kept and put it next to your ice cream :ack2:.

Wow. I am a complete idiot for not considering that it could spread during shipment. That is definately not a risk I would be willing to take. I will email Jen to say she can keep it or put it down, because I definately do not want to run the risk of it spreading because I had to have it shipped.
 
Tommy,
Going by your post's here in this thread you seem to be a real "good guy." I am sorry for your loss, and if I had animals like that to give away I would offer you a replacement G-Stripe.
 
RedDevil said:
That said, I never asked that it not be put down either. In all honesty, I just like that snake way too much to ask for it to be killed. I certainly wouldn't have held it against her if she did put it down, though.


Thats an entirely selfish reason to even risk the possibility. Sorry.... but I think the choice being made is wrong, and causes risk to others, whether you believe it or not.
 
RedDevil said:
Wow. I am a complete idiot for not considering that it could spread during shipment. That is definately not a risk I would be willing to take. I will email Jen to say she can keep it or put it down, because I definately do not want to run the risk of it spreading because I had to have it shipped.

Ah, did not see this part until now.

This is the best decision for you, and everyone. Im sorry you are losing a snake you cared about, but its for the best, for all involved.

The risk is never worth it.
 
Tommy has said that he never asked that his animal not be put down, and that he had assumed his animal was being put down with the rest of Jen's collection. He also said that he never implied that Jen would owe him a replacement G-Stripe, or monetary reimbursement. It was Jen that contacted him and asked when he wanted the animal shipped back to him.
After I brought up the risk factor of shipping this animal Tommy said that he was going to contact Jen and tell her to put the animal down, or keep it. He seems to be the "good guy" y'all seem to keep making Jen out to be.
 
RJK890 said:
Tommy has said that he never asked that his animal not be put down, and that he had assumed his animal was being put down with the rest of Jen's collection. He also said that he never implied that Jen would owe him a replacement G-Stripe, or monetary reimbursement. It was Jen that contacted him and asked when he wanted the animal shipped back to him.
After I brought up the risk factor of shipping this animal Tommy said that he was going to contact Jen and tell her to put the animal down, or keep it. He seems to be the "good guy" y'all seem to keep making Jen out to be.

Jen's a good person, though. She was just afraid I would have wanted reimbursement if she put it down, so I can't really blame her for not doing it. I'd have been worried about the same thing if it were the other way around.

Everything is settled now. I told her not to ship it back, and she could do with it as she sees fit. She agreed, so no worries about it being shipped or me trying to sneak it into my breeding program.

Thanks for the defense, though. :)
 
Tommy never demanded that I repay him or that I owed him anything after what happened -- he knew it was out of my control. My thought to try to figure out compensation for him was MY idea because I felt bad for everything that has transpired after he was nice enough to loan the snake to me in the first place last year. He never demanded that the g-stripe be sent back to him -- back before I put my collection down, I offered to withhold freezing him and send him back because I didn't feel right killing him without Tommy giving me permission first, as it was HIS snake, and ultimately HIS decision as to what happened to it. I told him that it needed to be kept away from his others, and that is where the business about him keeping it at his brother's house came up on the TSK forums. Since yesterday, Tommy PM'd me and asked me just to hang onto it instead of sending it back. He said he doesn't mind if I freeze it, but would prefer it if I just kept him as a pet with Spoon since he felt bad that I hadn't gotten to keep Lucky like I had wanted to. And considering that I don't have any reason not to, that's the plan. Neither are hurting anything or anyone by living in my room. Neither will ever leave my posession for any reason, nor leave my house.

Robert, why do I have to freeze Spoon? He is the only snake I have left (aside from the fact that I've been hanging onto the g-stripe as well, waiting to get an answer on what was going on with it), and I'm not doing anything with them nor am I getting any new ones ever again. So what harm is he doing by being my pet in my house? I haven't gone to a reptile show in years, nor do I go to anyone's house that has snakes. They don't pose a threat to anyone or anything.

Deborah, as I explained in my PM to you, I stated from day one on here that I would be keeping Spoon as my pet (and had intended to keep Lucky as well but it didn't work out that way). It isn't my fault that you didn't read that. You can go back and check if you feel the need.

Seamus, how many other people in this hobby do you know of that "quarantine" their snakes in separate rooms within their house? Pretty much every single person I know that isn't a large breeder does exactly that. So maybe instead of acting like I did something malicious or irresponsible, you should realize that we all just learned a big lesson on how things really can spread, and maybe the hundreds of other keepers that use an extra bedroom or a basement to quarantine their new arrivals should revise how they do things and go out and build a completely separate building on their lawn to avoid going through what I did.

Dan, the overall consensus from every vet was it was airborne. There was no other shared vector for transmission -- not water, not tools, not contact with me or anyone else, not parasites, not substrate, not food, not anything. Snakes in completely different racks in completely different rooms were affected at varying intervals with no pattern or method. I don't have any other info on the virus because Dr. Jacobson doesn't have anything new to give me -- he's still working on identifying it and breaking it down with what little funds he has. I'm hoping we'll have more answers relatively soon since he got 2 brand new sets of samples to work with when I put my animals down.
 
JenHarrison said:
Seamus, how many other people in this hobby do you know of that "quarantine" their snakes in separate rooms within their house? Pretty much every single person I know that isn't a large breeder does exactly that. So maybe instead of acting like I did something malicious or irresponsible, you should realize that we all just learned a big lesson on how things really can spread, and maybe the hundreds of other keepers that use an extra bedroom or a basement to quarantine their new arrivals should revise how they do things and go out and build a completely separate building on their lawn to avoid going through what I did.

Quarantine in seperate rooms... with a connected ventilation system that would allow airborne pathenogens to travel through them? There may be a wall involved, but that's one room.

There was an element that was introduced to your collection externally that can be identified as a catalyst. Precautions that could have prevented the degree of impact could have been in place but were not- that aspect is hindsight though, your practices were not uncommon, although they certainly weren't comprehensive either. Not a lot to be done about that after the fact.

When it comes to irresponsibility though, you have espoused viewpoints and taken actions that are absolutely irresponsible, to the point where I would even say the last few were maliciously so. Just because something wasn't your fault doesn't mean you can avoid the responsibility of dealing with it appropriately.

While you ultimately made the right decisions, few of them were your first choice and each new incident came complete with it's own round of you whining and seeking pity and everyone who was trying to correct your negligent, dangerous, stupid behavior having to couch their criticisms of your actions in the center of a dozen compliments and sympathetic comments. You didn't want to put the animals down. I'm not inclined to go back and find the exact details but I believe I remember you either obtaining more or trying to sell asymptomatic ones. You tried to sell caging that was used to house afflicted animals. You still have animals that were exposed to that potentially virulent and deadly environment that haven't been euthanized as a precaution... Every step an argument, every step met with resistance.

That's why I said... it's great that you're going to compensate the people who you owe... and why I noted that it seemed to be the first ethically right decision you were able to make independantly without having to be alternately shouted at and babied into taking it.

For whatever my opinion might be worth, your constant resistance to doing the right thing has me convinced that you are far from a good person. I simply don't think you can be trusted to make the right decisions in any situation, since your every impulse with this one was so very, very wrong.
 
Seamus and Robert.... you both are a couple of dicks. Plain and simple.
 
shrap said:
Seamus and Robert.... you both are a couple of dicks. Plain and simple.

Because I don't think a personal tradgedy is a valid excuse for a total meltdown of ethical responsibilities?

I was pretty sympathetic until the second or third outrageously inappropriate thing that Jen did (or tried to do, or said she was planning).

What the hell would posess someone who had just witnessed firsthand the devastation of a pathenogen on a collection to try spreading it around by unloading animals that were in a bin next to one that died... or to sell the bin itself? Handling other people's animals, attending shows... When does it stop being "a mistake" and start becoming "malignant negligence" by your definition?
 
Seamus Haley said:
Quarantine in seperate rooms... with a connected ventilation system that would allow airborne pathenogens to travel through them? There may be a wall involved, but that's one room.

There was an element that was introduced to your collection externally that can be identified as a catalyst. Precautions that could have prevented the degree of impact could have been in place but were not- that aspect is hindsight though, your practices were not uncommon, although they certainly weren't comprehensive either. Not a lot to be done about that after the fact.

When it comes to irresponsibility though, you have espoused viewpoints and taken actions that are absolutely irresponsible, to the point where I would even say the last few were maliciously so. Just because something wasn't your fault doesn't mean you can avoid the responsibility of dealing with it appropriately.

While you ultimately made the right decisions, few of them were your first choice and each new incident came complete with it's own round of you whining and seeking pity and everyone who was trying to correct your negligent, dangerous, stupid behavior having to couch their criticisms of your actions in the center of a dozen compliments and sympathetic comments. You didn't want to put the animals down. I'm not inclined to go back and find the exact details but I believe I remember you either obtaining more or trying to sell asymptomatic ones. You tried to sell caging that was used to house afflicted animals. You still have animals that were exposed to that potentially virulent and deadly environment that haven't been euthanized as a precaution... Every step an argument, every step met with resistance.

That's why I said... it's great that you're going to compensate the people who you owe... and why I noted that it seemed to be the first ethically right decision you were able to make independantly without having to be alternately shouted at and babied into taking it.

For whatever my opinion might be worth, your constant resistance to doing the right thing has me convinced that you are far from a good person. I simply don't think you can be trusted to make the right decisions in any situation, since your every impulse with this one was so very, very wrong.


That's your answer in the last sentence, Seamus. Impulse. She is a woman, most female decisions will be made out of impulse or emotion. Very rarely do we make logical decisions unless we have been trained to think that way. What she did is natural and normal (coupled with the fact that she apparently based some of her decisions on information that we knew nothing about at the time).

Your post while blunt is also true in essence. While I do agree with you, because I am also a woman, I can understand how some females minds work (No, I am not speaking for all women, this is merely my viewpoint on how we may make decisions versus some men). It doesn't make the way some females make decisions right; it just explains the reason why she had to be talked to logically to be led to see what she needed to do....and perhaps if she could have been talked to logically without insults that put her on the defensive and blinded her to the correct path because her defenses may have been on alert, this "saga" that you speak of may not have gone on as long as it did.

Jen, since you put my name in here. Let me explain something. I also make bad decisions based on a lack of information or emotions. Whether it's my fault for not reading or what (I actually did skip some posts, so if there was some good information in it...the tone, or beginning possibly turned me off) I also know when I have made a bad decision when I get the correct information and I do correct myself instead of following though and compounding my error.

Regarding your current situation, I would have put all the animals down regardless of my feelings because:

1. While it is asserted that it is an air-borne disease..I would be cautious, because very few pathogens are air-borne only, and in my mind, I simply do not have enough information on this illness to be able to make the "correct" decisions right now.

2. Because of number 1, we can not say that someone may not come to the house who owns a snake (service men, the mailman, repairmen..all of these are potential owners) and because of my decision (made emotionally) this saga may continue. (it will anyway, because I have NOT forgotten that other animals are out there..but we are talking about THIS decision).

3. If I get get sick/something happens and my animals need to be boorded....(I don't even want to think about that one) it will be taken out of the house.

4. It could escape. People are having their animals escape everyday.

That said. My offer was made to YOU. I am sorry, but It is not transferrable. What you did with the snakes once I gave them to you would be your decision. IMO: Nothing bad has happened to them requiring assistance to help them recover even if it's not their fault that this whole situation happened. Bad business decisions are made every day in which we did not see the outcome, and this snake loss can be a tax write off if it's an actual business depending on how it's set up. :yesnod:
 
Seamus Haley said:
Quarantine in seperate rooms... with a connected ventilation system that would allow airborne pathenogens to travel through them? There may be a wall involved, but that's one room.

Seamus, how would you suggest folks who have no access to separate buildings and such quarantine their animals? I'm not asking to be a PITA, I'm honestly curious as to what method you think would be acceptable, or if folks who cannot have separate buildings or two separate air systems in their home just shouldn't be breeding snakes at all?
 
deborahbroadus said:
She is a woman, most female decisions will be made out of impulse or emotion. Very rarely do we make logical decisions unless we have been trained to think that way.

That has to be one of the stupidest things I have seen typed on here yet.

I'm not even going to justify it with an arguement - even though my first impulse was to do so, the presence of logic and common sense tells me that it would be pointless.
 
Cat_72 said:
That has to be one of the stupidest things I have seen typed on here yet.

I'm not even going to justify it with an arguement - even though my first impulse was to do so, the presence of logic and common sense tells me that it would be pointless.


Your first "impluse." I rest my case. :shrug01:

Don't try and convince me that you operate from logic with the simple impluse response above. Logic and common sense would have told you that it's MY opinion and does not need a response. Impluse and emotion are simply other egos from which women (and some men) operate.
 
deborahbroadus said:
Your first "impluse." I rest my case.

Apparently you didn't get the fact that my saying that was supposed to be poking fun at your "deep" theory....presented as fact, not opinion.

I rest MY case as to it being pointless. :rofl:
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
I never thought I'd see the day where a sexist statement about women is made by a woman... :shrug01:

Perhaps she was "trained to think that way".... :iagree:
 
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