Info Johathon at Breeders Circle saying his Citrus Pastel WO makes our Power House WO

[mountain top]

hmm...

I feel that Amir's radio interview was nothing more than the SHAM I expected to hear from him. Where does he feel that this did anything? All I heard was a person making statements without one shred of proof. Amir, do you really think the statements that you made covered any shred of the accusations (I feel that were made by the other side with strong poof and photographic evidence) that were laid out in this BOI thread. I for one am not done with this thread until Amir S. Mike Bell, and Jonathan F come on fauna show us real proof. Clark has shown hard evidence and with pictures with multiple clutches and I have yet to see anything from you three. Where is everyone's washouts Amir? Mike isn't it strange that you were given credit of making an animal that was already 3 months old and it was produced by Clark? Clark has also proven that this washout gene is not attached to any one particular gene including your citrus pastel or even a calico. The lone Washout is pictured earlier in this thread, and they are their own visual morph. Mike you have the most citrus pastels second to Amir, but only one snake that makes washouts as of now. Would you care to elaborate here on Fauna for us Mike? I find that rather suspect in and of itself. I also find this rather distasteful that I have to comment on what appears to be a complete lack of honesty or personal integrity from these 3 men. I am willing to sit out here and except potshots (from the trolls) at my personal integrity and honesty but where is Mike B., Jonathan F. and Amir S. It is RJK980 belief as well as my own that Amir is trying to breed Mike Bells animals into his own citrus pastel to manufacture proof after the fact of overcharging people for his citrus pastels. I never heard you even approach anything to do with the this thread or all the proof that is on here at all Amir. Ok guys, why don't the three of you come here to Fauna and do the right thing. Or you guys can continue to run! K. Matthews AKA mountain top

 

[Get Sum]

I feel that Amir's radio interview was nothing more than the SHAM I expected to hear from him. Where does he feel that this did anything? All I heard was a person making statements without one shred of proof. Amir, do you really think the statements that you made covered any shred of the accusations (I feel that were made by the other side with strong poof and photographic evidence) that were laid out in this BOI thread. I for one am not done with this thread until Amir S. Mike Bell, and Jonathan F come on fauna show us real proof. Clark has shown hard evidence and with pictures with multiple clutches and I have yet to see anything from you three. Where is everyone's washouts Amir? Mike isn't it strange that you were given credit of making an animal that was already 3 months old and it was produced by Clark? Clark has also proven that this washout gene is not attached to any one particular gene including your citrus pastel or even a calico. The lone Washout is pictured earlier in this thread, and they are their own visual morph. Mike you have the most citrus pastels second to Amir, but only one snake that makes washouts as of now. Would you care to elaborate here on Fauna for us Mike? I find that rather suspect in and of itself. I also find this rather distasteful that I have to comment on what appears to be a complete lack of honesty or personal integrity from these 3 men. I am willing to sit out here and except potshots (from the trolls) at my personal integrity and honesty but where is Mike B., Jonathan F. and Amir S. It is RJK980 belief as well as my own that Amir is trying to breed Mike Bells animals into his own citrus pastel to manufacture proof after the fact of overcharging people for his citrus pastels. I never heard you even approach anything to do with the this thread or all the proof that is on here at all Amir. Ok guys, why don't the three of you come here to Fauna and do the right thing. Or you guys can continue to run! K. Matthews AKA mountain top

Kevin, I agree with some of the statements you have stated, however I think you need to leave Mike Bell out of this. Mike has done nothing wrong nor has he even been involved in this thread. Clarks animals are: Power House Washouts. Mike's animals are labeled as Citrus Whiteouts.

Yes, it would have been nice if Amir had spoken about some of the issues related to this thread, however his silence on the matter at stake helps to confirm my original assumptions.

We all know that Clark started with (1) original male to create all of his amazing mutations- he has the gene- Fact.

We also know that there are hundreds of citrus pastels or "citrus pastel whiteouts" on the market and in numerous breeders collections.

If only one other individual that I am aware of is able to produce identical looking animals as Clark's Washout line using the citrus pastel gene, well I think we can rest our case! Uhmm.... ahhh... pause, Uhmm...ahhh...pause

I think it's time to leave this one alone and wait to see what new mutations are created next year and so on.

I know who has the gene capable of producing the visual animals that I would like to produce myself. I also know were my money is going on his next clutch that should be hatching very soon if he makes any of them available!

 

[charleshanklin]

I feel that Amir's radio interview was nothing more than the SHAM I expected to hear from him. Where does he feel that this did anything? All I heard was a person making statements without one shred of proof. Amir, do you really think the statements that you made covered any shred of the accusations (I feel that were made by the other side with strong poof and photographic evidence) that were laid out in this BOI thread. I for one am not done with this thread until Amir S. Mike Bell, and Jonathan F come on fauna show us real proof. Clark has shown hard evidence and with pictures with multiple clutches and I have yet to see anything from you three. Where is everyone's washouts Amir? Mike isn't it strange that you were given credit of making an animal that was already 3 months old and it was produced by Clark? Clark has also proven that this washout gene is not attached to any one particular gene including your citrus pastel or even a calico. The lone Washout is pictured earlier in this thread, and they are their own visual morph. Mike you have the most citrus pastels second to Amir, but only one snake that makes washouts as of now. Would you care to elaborate here on Fauna for us Mike? I find that rather suspect in and of itself. I also find this rather distasteful that I have to comment on what appears to be a complete lack of honesty or personal integrity from these 3 men. I am willing to sit out here and except potshots (from the trolls) at my personal integrity and honesty but where is Mike B., Jonathan F. and Amir S. It is RJK980 belief as well as my own that Amir is trying to breed Mike Bells animals into his own citrus pastel to manufacture proof after the fact of overcharging people for his citrus pastels. I never heard you even approach anything to do with the this thread or all the proof that is on here at all Amir. Ok guys, why don't the three of you come here to Fauna and do the right thing. Or you guys can continue to run! K. Matthews AKA mountain top

Can you point me to a link where Mike is misleading anyone about the animals?

 

[mountain top]

For one, Mike pictured in a competing forum a clutch that was the same as Clark's washouts. Mike posted that they were a super citrus calico whiteout clutch. Posted on fauna already is a citrus pastel calico whiteout that doesn't have the washouts markings. Obviously they can't be related. 2nd of all, during Amir's speech on Sunday, he tried to give credit to Mike for producing the animals first by not mentioning Clark and Mike is yet to put Amir straight on this publicly. In closing I feel that this is enough to call into question, that Mike is being misleading by failing to set the record straight.
K. Matthews aka mountain top

 

[charleshanklin]

Mike got his anmals from Amir and is going by what he is told by the person he got them from. This whole thread is a whiteoutwash with what the founders of this morph have said or not said. It seems to me that more breedings need to done to figure out this morph.

 

[dustinNMpythons]

I agree that Mike is going off of what he was told by the breeder but if he has test bred and had results that further disproved this morph then he should let his customers know his findings instead of cashing in and staying hush hush. Not saying this is the case but if it is then that's wrong.

 

[Mike Bell Reptiles]

Hello Everyone,
First of all I'd like to say I didn't even know this thread existed until this past Saturday when I was in Tampa for the Repticon Show. I haven't even read all of it, there are 19 pages. I don't have the time. Out of all the involved parties, Clark, Joe, Jonathan and Amir, Amir is the only one I even know. He has always been up front with me on every deal we have had together. I'm not even quite sure why Clark is upset with anyone, it seems he doesn't like Jonathan's ads stating citrus makes whiteouts. I don't think Jonathan advertised that citrus makes a PH anything. If Clark has a different gene, why does it matter what Jonathan does. I might have missed the whole point.

I have never mislead anyone, I'm also not cashing in on this project. I barely even advertise any of them. I've advertised my original clutch with the super citrus calicos and some of the g-stripe stuff, but I haven't sold any of them. I did sell one of the original super citrus calicos to Amir soon after they were born. I sold one citrus fly at Tampa, its color was amazing and it stood out on its own, there was no need to mention the possibility of a hidden gene. I have hatched lots of pastels this year that I believe are citrus, for now I'm hanging on to them to see how everything turns out.

In 2010 I hatched three super citrus calicos that were all silver or "white" at birth. There was also a super citrus pastel in the clutch with a very unusual busy pattern. This clutch was from a citrus female bred by a citrus calico male, both animals came from Amir as citrus animals. Clark hatched some animals at about the same time (I believe his were first) that looked identical at birth to mine. I haven't seen pictures of those after they grew to compare to mine. I assumed then and still believe that the calico gene had a major influence on the faded pattern of these animals and the citrus helped it along. I understand this isn't a very scientific explanation, but I'm not a scientist and have never tried to explain this in a definitive manner.

I have a citrus g-stripe male that isn't an extremely nice version, (non-whiteout). He has been bred to het stripes that I produced from a plain g-stripe male, so none of my het females have the citrus or whiteout gene in their background. About half of this males pastel stripe offspring are born with whiteheads and are much brighter than the others. Some of the g-stripes are a few shades lighter in color than the others, I don't know if this is an indication of another gene or not. These clutches are the strongest evidence I have that there is another gene involved.

I have 1.2 citrus flies that came from Amir, they are drop dead gorgeous. The females weren't up to size for 2011, but the male was. I produced a citrus fly that I sold at Tampa, several people stated it was the nicest they had seen. I showed the buyer other fire flies available at the show, there was no comparison. I have another clutch with more citrus flies and some super citrus, super citrus flies, these are all amazing. I'll post some pictures of them soon. These clutches are from citrus fly male to citrus females.

I hatched a citrus puma. I haven't seen other pastel pumas, but mine has a whitehead, for what that is worth. I like it though.

My initial reason for getting in to the citrus was they are very nice pastels. I believe there is something else going on now though. The calicos can be explained by "that is what the calico can do", I believe the citrus had an influence also. The stripes are my strongest belief that there is something else involved. The citrus flies and citrus YBs I have are outstanding, they don't have an extreme whiteout look as the calicos did. With or without having a whiteout gene showing, the citrus makes amazing animals.

I don't know what anyone else is making or selling, I'm not involved with their projects. I have tried to explain what I have done, and what I believe the citrus can do. I have never mislead anyone about this or anything else. Just because I wasn't on here defending this project doesn't mean I'm being misleading, I didn't even know this thread was here until Saturday. I'm sure there are more questions, if I can help answer them I will.

Here is a link to my photo page, I'm sure most of you that are concerned about this have already seen these pictures. There is a little bit of description along with the pictures. All of these snakes were hatched by me, from snakes I obtained from Amir, with the exception of the female het g-stripes that I bred to a citrus stripe male.

http://imageevent.com/mikebellreptiles/citrusstuff/citrusstuffinfo

Citrus Puma

 

[mountain top]

Mike, Thank you for coming here to answer questions. Could you please show us a few pictures
of the female that produced your great calico crosses that you have previously posted? So we can understand what you mean.
Thank You, K. Matthews aka mountain top

 

[Mike Bell Reptiles]

Citrus

Kevin,
I'll include the picture of the dam from my original super citrus calico litter.

When I posted yesterday, I had just sort of skimmed over some of the posts, I wanted to set the record straight on some of the issues. First of all, you are incorrectly assuming that I'm keeping up with all of this nonsense, both here and the radio show. I didn't know this thread existed until Saturday when I was in Tampa. I haven't even heard most of the radio show, I got home Sunday night and listened to the last 8-9 minutes, there was no mention of citrus during that time. You believe Amir is trying to breed my animals back in to the citrus to improve the citrus and deflect criticism if the existing citrus don't produce what is claimed. You have quite an imagination. My original clutch was four animals, three super citrus calicos and a super citrus, all four are females. Amir bought one of the super citrus calicos, the other three I still have here. Amir bought one female in 2010, that wouldn't go very far towards improving his stock. You mentioned that I haven't corrected Amir's statement that I produced my clutch first as evidence I was hiding something. I have never heard the show to know exactly what was said, but does it matter at all? I don't think this thread was about who was first, but rather what produces what. I'll give Clark credit for being first if that makes a difference, but explain this, if Clark says his isn't citrus, then I produced the first super citrus calicos and Clark produced the first PH washout. I have been as open and honest as I can be about this from the very beginning. I'm easy to contact if you had any questions you wanted answered before you accused me of being misleading. At this time I feel you over reacted and included me with others you feel aren't being straight forward. I have worked very hard to have a good name in this hobby/business. I feel your comments were unjustified. I have done everything I can to set the record straight. As you know, there is nothing more important in any business, especially this business, than your reputation. So at this time, I respectfully ask that you retract your claims of any wrong doing or deception on my part, I feel you owe me an apology.

I tried to explain the whiteout aspect of the citrus project in my earlier post. I won't go over that part again, as I don't feel that is the important part of the citrus project. I got my citrus because they were nicer pastels than average. Then it got better with the different combos, YB, citrus flies, g-stripes, bees, etc. Every pastel combo is better when it is made with citrus. Then it got even better with the calico whiteout clutch, to me this is just icing on the cake, an unexpected added bonus. If Clark's mutation is different and not citrus, he should add citrus to improve what he is already doing. In the near future I'll get some more pictures of citrus combos to try to show what I'm talking about. I have many new hatchling citrus flies, super citrus flies and super citrus that need to shed and feed before posting pictures.
This is the dam of my super citrus calico clutch, she is a citrus pastel.

 

[mountain top]

Mike, love the pastel but I am not seeing the visual genetic markers that Amir spoke of Sunday evening? To the best of your understanding would you please elaborate?
Thanks, K. Matthews aka mountain top

 

[Mike Bell Reptiles]

I never stated that I knew what the markers were, you will have to ask someone else. Other than the nice overall look, high blushing and exact records of what I have bred to what, I don't know.

I never claimed to know the exact details of the citrus project, I don't know that anyone does at this time, I don't know if anyone ever will know for sure. I'm taking what I have and making the most of it, so far I have not been disappointed. Citrus is a very important part of my collection.

All I tried to do in another location was show what I have done personally with citrus animals I received from Amir, and tell the little bit that I know about the project. The g-stripe is in my opinion the best proof I have that there is something else going on. This is the only thing I have done as far as this topic, try to explain what I have personally done, not what I think it might do or anything else. For this I get accused of being misleading. I still feel you owe me an apology for your earlier posts.

The bottom snake is fresh out of the egg, the other two have shed and fed.

 

[Power House Reptiles]

Mike,

Just to state the facts once again for you because, you seem to have missed a few things in your skimming of the forum.
This thread is about the very serious allegations against Jonathan for the misrepresentation of the genetics of the animals he is selling. He has been accused of selling citrus pastels as citrus pastel whiteouts.
When asked to show proof of how he was able to tell the deference in the two genetics he said that the gene was random and could show up in any citrus but was only carried in the citrus line.
Later on a different forum Amir stated that the genetics of his citrus line had markers that identify them from other lines of pastel (the same line Jonathan is selling as citrus and citrus whiteout pastels.)
Amir said there are genetic markers which clearly show if the snake is or is NOT caring the citrus gene and/or the whiteout gene.
For all involved this is a very important point!
Amir never stated the genetic markers of his citrus gene on this forum. Instead he choose to take to the radio to describe the genetic markers that he said made it clearly visible which animals carried the gene and which ones did not.
Maybe you should have told Amir what the snake he sold you looked like before he described the genetic markers to the rest of the world on the radio.
He claims the mutations you made carry his line of citrus pastel.
Wait! Your snake has none of the markers Amir tells us to look for when identifying his citrus pastel line from other lines of pastel.
Wait! Amir claims your animals also carry his whiteout gene.
Wow, how is this possible? Because as I understand it, you have never purchased a whiteout animal from Amir only citrus pastels.
Wow, you simply got lucky and produced a clutch of super citrus calico whiteouts from a citrus pastel female with NO citrus pastel markers!
How do we know this is even a citrus pastel?
Amir referred to your animals specifically as Super Citrus Pastel Calico WHITEOUTS ( the first ever produced ?)
Again, we come to the fact that Jonathan claimed the genetics of the whiteout gene are random and within the citrus gene.
Amir claims that there are markers that identify which snakes carry the whiteout gene. He also claims that he has even produced sibling snakes that show the markers and carry the whiteout gene independent of the citrus pastel.
Wow, you claim to have made four Super Citrus mutations from a snake that does not even carry the citrus markers that the origin breeder, Amir, claims they should have.
We have three very respected breeders within the Ball Python community involved with the citrus pastel gene. When asked about one single genetic caricature the three of you have come up with very different answers on the same gene. However, no proof as to what you are selling or how to identify it? Amir steps in to clean up Jonathan's mess and you step in and undermine everything that Amir said with one photo.
Wow, you guys should really get together and compare notes on this project.

Best regards,
Clark Tucker
www.powerhousereptiles.com
334 422 4246

 

[HerpVenue]

Mike,

Just to state the facts once again for you because, you seem to have missed a few things in your skimming of the forum.
This thread is about the very serious allegations against Jonathan for the misrepresentation of the genetics of the animals he is selling.

Really? Then why are you taking it out on Mike? he already said he does not know what is oging on with the gene.

When asked about one single genetic caricature the three of you have come up with very different answers on the same gene. However, no proof as to what you are selling or how to identify it?

Slow your roll. You are all over the place. you are so hyper about this subject that you are actually confusing people.

You say you asked about one Genetic caricature. Did you? Because you mentioned citrus pastels, citrus pastel whiteouts, Super Citrus Pastel Calico WHITEOUTS.

I think you need to read his post again. He is still working with the gene and trying to figure out what is going on with it. Seriously, he came here to tell youwhat he is doing and what he has done. Then you lump him with the other two who refuse to come here. MIKE BELL told you what MIKE BELL produced. Then you get mad at MIKE BELL because AMIR stated something different. I think Mike might know what he produced. Don't get upset at the guy because the ones you truly want to grill are not present and REFUSE to be present

 

[mountain top]

After I read the last couple of posts, I feel the need to post on his matter. Clark, I thank you for coming in with the appropriate information that is simple enough for even I to understand. It seems to me after viewing numerous citrus pastels and its combos, they are just nice pastels that won't make this morph that all these people are claiming. It is obvious to me from the information posted in this thread, the citrus pastel whiteout is nothing more than an illusionary tactic to sell overpriced citrus morphs. The partys in question are claiming that those they sell to could make something that they will not. It appears crystal clear to me that the all the people in question "kidnapped" Power Houses Washout morph. Mike, I refuse to give you an apology.
Kevin Matthews aka mountaintop

 

[Chris Kennard]

After I read the last couple of posts, I feel the need to post on his matter. Clark, I thank you for coming in with the appropriate information that is simple enough for even I to understand. It seems to me after viewing numerous citrus pastels and its combos, they are just nice pastels that won't make this morph that all these people are claiming. It is obvious to me from the information posted in this thread, the citrus pastel whiteout is nothing more than an illusionary tactic to sell overpriced citrus morphs. The partys in question are claiming that those they sell to could make something that they will not. It appears crystal clear to me that the all the people in question "kidnapped" Power Houses Washout morph. Mike, I refuse to give you an apology.
Kevin Matthews aka mountaintop

"not sure why you think I would bother my mother for every single tiny posting. if I'm going to post a sentence or 2 bro even if it's a run on I figure you folks can figure it out no need to bother a 79 year old lady..." I certainly wouldn't "bother" my 79 year old mommy at 12:20 a.m.

 

[HerpVenue]

So Mike comes here and tell you what he has done and tells you what he plans to do and tells you he is still unclear of how the gene works.... then you call him a liar.

meanwhile,mountaintop, you go of spouting how Mike sold amir a snake so he can breed it back into everything in his stock. Then we find out that is simply not true and you forget to call yourself a liar.

For one, Mike pictured in a competing forum a clutch that was the same as Clark's washouts.

Let me get this straight. You say Mike showed a picture of a clutch that was the same as clark's washouts. So you are saying they look the same.

Mike posted that they were a super citrus calico whiteout clutch. Posted on fauna already is a citrus pastel calico whiteout that doesn't have the washouts markings. Obviously they can't be related.

Okay now you are saying they do not look the same.

2nd of all, during Amir's speech on Sunday, he tried to give credit to Mike for producing the animals first by not mentioning Clark and Mike is yet to put Amir straight on this publicly.

Now Mike has to take responsibility for what others are saying. And he has to know it the instant they say it. The guy has 9(nine) posts. Obviously he does not spend every waking hour on this forum

 

[bullies&balls]

wow, you guys are just freekin NUTZ !!! Mike is nothing short of incredible when it comes to reptiles and the reptile community. To have the sac to drag him into this and then question his intentions and ethics is laughable at the least and freekin rude at all levels.

Please do us all a favor and save your apologies, as they would not even be worthy. Buy what you want, call it what you want and leave it at that.

Noticed that I didn't say anything about Amir, Jonathan, clark or yourself ?

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

"not sure why you think I would bother my mother for every single tiny posting. if I'm going to post a sentence or 2 bro even if it's a run on I figure you folks can figure it out no need to bother a 79 year old lady..." I certainly wouldn't "bother" my 79 year old mommy at 12:20 a.m.

Yo get a hobby bro, post a BOI on the dude's mother waking up to type for him and whatever else you need to do but you're being very Summer's Eve about the whole ordeal.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Yo get a hobby bro, post a BOI on the dude's mother waking up to type for him and whatever else you need to do but you're being very Summer's Eve about the whole ordeal.

Wow! Good thing you have opened my eyes! I'll just run right along and do as you command, lol. Bro? Dude? Pay attention 'homie', my point is that I don't believe that "dude's mother", or if I may, his 'momses', is typing squat for him. Uh oh! Next time I'll dumb it down for ya 'G'. I have read mountains post closely. Suh-m fishy goin' on yo.

 

[bobtard]

Wow! Good thing you have opened my eyes! I'll just run right along and do as you command, lol. Bro? Dude? Pay attention 'homie', my point is that I don't believe that "dude's mother", or if I may, his 'momses', is typing squat for him. Uh oh! Next time I'll dumb it down for ya 'G'. I have read mountains post closely. Suh-m fishy goin' on yo.

Please, teach me how to troll as hard as you.