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Ken of Exotic Pets in Las Vegas*BAD*

Question please....

Is it even legal to ship that way? This is a tough one if it is not.. if both parties agreed to the shipping method then they are both at fault???.. now who is more at fault, who did or didnt do this or that is another story that I dont even want to get into.

I know I ship LEGAL.. DELTA DASH.. yea it cost me 69 bucks each time. But a few extra bucks is worth a LIVE arrival, in the same day and NOT ILLEGAL. Seems there were many mistakes made here. I am by no means perfect.. but one of the first things I did even though I dont have much, or anything at this time, to sell, is setup a legal shipping method.

I hope this all works out for both of you and you can both come out happy...

Shawn Morelan
www.SouthernBoids.com
 
well?

i 100% totally agree w/seamus,you are wrong bobbypruett,people that ship w/o insulation,heat/cold packs etc.should be BANNED from the hobby there is no excuse you could ever give,and youve done this for 10yrs.? you say?,that along w/this whole situation is PATHETIC,YOU OWE KEN AN APOLIGY AT THE LEAST FOR THIS POST,YOU WERE WRONG ,,,,,and IMHO your idiocy caused those poor snakes death,,,,,,,,,,,,, thomas davis T&S reptile farm
 
the legality of shipping....

Shawn, shipping animals by fedex is not illegal. I do believe it is against company policy though. My understanding is that no laws were broken. I do ship fedex if the customer insists (a policy I might just revise now). I know that airborne does not allow snakes to be shipped either, but I happen to do this on almost a daily basis. The drivers know what's in the box, so do the managers. On the other hand, they do not promise live delivery of any animal, and of course especially the ones that thier policy says they won't ship. I also agree with you that delta is the safest way to go. However, under the conditions that I have to ship, the animals on delta run the same risks as the ones I ship airborne. Yes, the warehouse is airconditioned, but the trip across the tarmac to the plane is not. Those animals run the same risks as the ones that I ship overnight to a customers door. If packaged properly, the short trip will do no harm, especially on my end, when the ice/coldpacks are still fresh and frosty. Thanks for your input
 
Shawn,

You are going against a company policy but you are not breaking any shipping law by shipping live snakes. As far as I understand what is "illegal" though is shipping without proper identification (common name and species) of the animal being shipped (Lacey Act).

Both parties have blame in this case, and unfortunatley, for Bobby, I can't agree with him that Ken owes him anything.

In my opinion is the shipper that is ultimately at fault, as he is the one that has the final decision if it is safe or not for the snakes, not to mention shipping under unproper packaging conditions.

Regards
 
More I guess

Alvaro,, I am not sure where that quote you have came from, but it was not from me.

I was merely saying that it sounded like there were a few things that didnt work correctly due to lack of communication, packaging, tracking etc.

I forget that my town is very small and we only have a single desk for Delta.. so my package comes off the plane and directly inside. I can see where larger airports may still have problems with weather when moving from the plane to the desk.

I am not blaming anyone in this matter.. just saying that I use Delta to avoid the problems they are having now. I really think same day ship and arrival is the way to go. I dont think a box in a truck in the heat even if it is supposed to be delivered by a certain time is the best method.

Again.. I am not a heavy shipper.. just my thoughts. I do know that I am very anxious when I am expecting a shipment and track it so that it does not sit anywhere, be it inside or out, for long. However if I was getting packages on a daily basis that may not be possible. I am also picky about tracking shipments I send out to make sure they also are picked up as soon as possible.

I hope they can work it all out and we can all learn something about packing, shipping etc. The frozen spounge sounds like a good idea for a cool pack. See.. I learned something new already.

Shawn Morelan
www.SouthernBoids.com
 
Re: well?

thomas davis said:
i 100% totally agree w/seamus,you are wrong bobbypruett,people that ship w/o insulation,heat/cold packs etc.should be BANNED from the hobby there is no excuse you could ever give,and youve done this for 10yrs.? you say?,that along w/this whole situation is PATHETIC,YOU OWE KEN AN APOLIGY AT THE LEAST FOR THIS POST,YOU WERE WRONG ,,,,,and IMHO your idiocy caused those poor snakes death,,,,,,,,,,,,, thomas davis T&S reptile farm

If you must know ive been breeding reptiles for 13years,feel free to check what ever you want out. I am not sorry for making this post. They arrived bright and early and he wasnt there to get them plain and simple! The fact they showed back up hours later in the hottest part of the day is on Ken for not being there to get them in the morning. He was emailed the tracking number and the fact they were sent through Fed-Ex. Ken wasnt there to get the bolx and the snakes are dead. Ken is just writting me off for him not being there to get the box. My animals are dead. My money is spent. I really dont see where im wrong here. One other thing, set your personal friendships aside and try posting without the name calling. We are all adults here.
 
It is not illegal to ship via the overnight carriers, but it does violate the carriers' policies. It the same difference between violating the speed limit and going the wrong way in a private parking lot lane. One is a definite crime, the other is an annoyance perhaps, but not criminal.

As to the question at hand, I would say that anyone who ships to Las Vegas in July without insulation or cool packs either (a) does not know what he is doing, (b) knows what he is doing and does not care enough to spend an extra buck or two on the necessities, or (c) was simply negligent in his packaging. Regardless of which it actually is, Bobby seems to be at least partially to blame here. Should Ken have known when the animals were to arrive and made certain he was there? Possibly so, but that would only reduce Bobby's fault by a relatively minor percentage in this instance, because if the animals had been packaged correctly, they would have likely been alive, regardless of the circumstances.

In a comparative negligence scenario, assuming Ken was in the wrong for not being there for delivery (and we do NOT know that at all yet!), I would think that Bobby is at least 75% to blame here (50% because he was wrong in the first place, and 25% because the snakes may have had a 50-50 chance of surviving the heat exposure of a delayed delivery). Therefore, if I were Ken, the absolute MOST I would offer to Bobby is 25% of the value of those snakes, and I would only do that IF I believed that I had been in the wrong for not being present to accept the initial delivery attempt.

Finally, it would seem prudent to have all packages held at the local carrier office when it is extremely hot (90+ F) at the destination site. That way, the animals do not spend a day in a those furnaces they call trucks, and the buyer can get the box as soon as they want. A shipper may require that the box be picked up before noon to keep the guarantees alive, but that is another debate . . .
 
I am not sorry for making this post.

You made this post before giving him ample time to discuss the issue with you, you should feel sorry about it... You have made an attempt (I say attempt because anyone with half a brain can see that Ken is not wrong here) to damage someone's reputation over YOUR mistake and you did it in such a manner that left them no room to attempt to satisfy your requests.

They arrived bright and early and he wasnt there to get them plain and simple!

You also shipped them bright and early, far earlier than you needed to, adding a good eight hours of stress onto the already improperly packaged animals... If they attempted delivery just before nine, and the delivery was completed just after one, Ken (IF he's at fault, which I don't believe, you knew his business hours in advance) only added four, maybe four and a half hours onto the duration of time they were packaged... Once again Bobby, YOUR "mistake" (and by mistake I mean gross negligence).

My animals are dead. My money is spent.

Ah... so because you don't know what the word "cold pack" means, it should be his animals gone and his money spent? that makes a lot of sense... he should pay for your mistakes. Life doesn't work that way.

I really dont see where im wrong here. One other thing, set your personal friendships aside and try posting without the name calling. We are all adults here

Lets see... how are you wrong...

I'd say you have no idea how to properly package an animal, that's wrong...

I'd say that you didn't give Ken time to even attempt to discuss some kind of mutually agreed compromise here, that's wrong...

I'd say that you seem to be blind to the fact that everyone else sees how you're wrong... that's wrong too.

Simple fact of the matter is Bobby, you shipped animals in a way that wasn't safe, they arrived dead. That is nobody's fault but your own, you chose the carrier, you chose the packaging, you chose not to let Ken know that they deliver eraly, you chose not to mark the box in a manner that would have caused the carrier to complete the delivery quicker.

Ken did nothing other than what he was supposed to and now you expect him to pay for it... That is a steaming load Bobby, and I think you know it.

Add in the fact that Ken has an immaculate record and Bobby has one that could be called spotty at best, specifically in the area of the care of the animals in his posession and the value he applies to them (none as living things, they are nothing but dollar signs) and it becomes even more obvious who is in the right here.

One last thing... Bobby, you claim to have been doing this for thirteen years and "know" what's right? Why don't you ask Ken how long he has been doing this and what he has learned? You'll never get him to admit that he's an old fart... but if someone stays in this business (Business for twenty plus mind you, hobby goes even further) for 20+ years and does so successfully, then they have an understanding of how to go about doing things the RIGHT WAY, how to deal with people (Ken's post was the most level headed on the entire thread) and how to take proper care of the animals at all times, including when shipping- all of which is clearly more than you do Mister Pruett.
 
Darin, I had no idea that the snakes would be delivered to me so early, or I would have been there for sure. I only live 3 minutes from work. I meet sales reps, customers, suppliers, and yes, even delivery people there if I am forwarned in advance, usually at all hours. I do not want to rip anyone off, and I try to be as fair as I can. I don't think I "owe" Bobby anything, but I emailed him to try to work something out anyway. I see he has posted here a couple of time since my email to him, but has not deemed me the time to respond to me privately. I do my very best, I take care of my animals, I will put the knowledge and caring of my staff up against any other business any day, and I don't want to be labeled a bad guy. Without customer service, I'm out of business, period. I'm once again sorry for all this, but I am not going to take the blame for this. Bobby, at least put a label on that says what's inside is perishable. Even fruit is given better shipping conditions then you showed living creatures. Even my smoked salmon I have shipped in has big red letters that say "PERISHABLE". I have not had a chance to photo the box or the animals, but I will later today, and have the pics by tonight, if anyone is interested. Bobby, I don't want a war with you sir, I'm sure you are a good guy. I have no beef with you. If you want to work something out, contact me. However, I will not be taking a loss on this transaction, especially not now. I'm not mad, just a bit put off
 
Bobby,
I am sorry about your loss.
It is the shippers responsibility to make sure that the shipping conditions are good and that the animals are packed right!Also you should always expect something to go wrong with the delivery time.
I think you should have known better! Especially with 13 years in the business.
I have known Ken for around 20 years and I was offened by your BAD GUY post.Ken is a straight up guy!



Chris Reimann


Gila Ranch
PO Box 307
Comfort,Tx.
78013

www.gilaranch.com
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They arrived bright and early and he wasnt there to get them plain and simple!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You also shipped them bright and early,

Aside from the poor packaging thing, It is imperitive to get the animals out later, the later they go out, the less time they are in trasnsit. I ALWAYS get my animals out as late as possible, hot or cold. My shipper closes at 6:30pm, and I am never there before 6:15pm with live animals.

Bobby, it may be in your best interest to let this thread rest and give Ken a call. From what I read in his posts, he is still willing to help this matter by working something out on the animals you wanted from him.

I do understand your point on him not being at his shop to accept this package, but how is he supposed to be there to accept it if he is not aware they are en route?
 
ok

Bobby,

I can understand what your saying about him not being there to sign for them when they arrived. My terms clearly state that Live Arrival is guaranteed if they sign on the first delivery attempt. However, the animals very well have arrived alive if you had used a little better judgement in your packing method. No matter if it is summer or winter all my packages get Styrofoam lined boxes and depending on the temperatures they will get a cool pack or a heat pack. I think the animals would have also fared better had you not shipped them so early in the day on your end. I try to ship my packages as late in the afternoon that I can. I always drop mine off myself rather than have a driver pick them. With all the things that have happened with this I truly feel that you both bear the responsibility for the demise of these animals.
 
To Ken

Ken, I've been lurking and reading posts on the BOI for the last month or so. One thing I've kept in mind are those who I should avoid in the future. Another thing I've noted are those whose method of representing themselves are far and above the average. I just wanted you to know that you are one person who I have targeted to purchase from in the future when I have the wherewhithal to purchase snakes. Because of the weather here in Arizona I've decided that I will only be able to receive shipments during two periods of vacation I have, in spring and in the fall. I plan on saving up for that time, and I'm sure you'll hear from me.

This "bad guy" post has done more FOR your GOOD reputation and more for the "BAD GUY" reputation of the other guy than anything. I haven't done business with you, but plan to do so, and to post about that at some point in the future.

Anybody shipping to He!! (Las Vegas, or Phoenix, or other extremely hot places) without a cold pack is sending their animals to their deaths. And anyone taking animals to be shipped out at the very beginning of the day is asking for those animals to sit in who knows what conditions long before they even leave the place of departure.

I feel for those poor snakes. They are super high on my want list also.
 
Just a quick note... Bobby did not post his story... and it a story, being a work of fiction... Just on Fauna...

It can also be found at http://novogate.com/forums/1046/4875/25458-1.html#201806

I have not yet had time to check corallus.com, their forums were down when I first tried... And I haven't gone near KS... but it wouldn't surprise me if Bobby tried the same thing on other sites as well... If everyone doesn't mind keeping an eye out for anywhere else that Bobby may have spread his manure, please toss a link onto this thread so that those interested can respond everywhere that he has posted his nonsense.

And anyone wishing to add their thoughts to the thread over there in addition to the one here... Well, I like massive outpourings of public opinion, especially when the majority seem to be in agreement with mine. It's only right to let the users of every site this has been spread to know the actual facts behind the matter.
 
I can understand what your saying about him not being there to sign for them when they arrived. My terms clearly state that Live Arrival is guaranteed if they sign on the first delivery attempt. However, the animals very well have arrived alive if you had used a little better judgement in your packing method. No matter if it is summer or winter all my packages get Styrofoam lined boxes and depending on the temperatures they will get a cool pack or a heat pack. I think the animals would have also fared better had you not shipped them so early in the day on your end.

Something I pointed out earlier but may have been lost in the ensuing shuffle... plus Bobby didn't answer the questions I asked, but it doesn't matter at this point...

Bobby approached Ken with the trade based off an ad Ken had posted on kingsnake with animals FOR SALE. This makes Bobby's terms and conditions meaningless, Ken's are the ones that need to be applied to the situation. Ken never agreed to Bobby's terms, Bobby (by approaching Ken about an ad) agreed to Ken's.

It may seem like a nuance, but it is an important one... Bobby can rant and groan and moan all he likes about how his terms were breached but the fact of the matter is, his terms never applied to start. Since he was the supplicant for the deal, Bobby shipped first, Bobby assumed the risk and Bobby's crappy packaging and shipping practices killed those snakes. Ken never got what was agreed to, so he owes Bobby nothing.

Now if Bobby would just grow up a bit and admit some guilt... Something he has thus far refused to do despite the common consensus and something he never did on the other threads where he was clearly at fault (The snow boa thread for example)... Perhaps approach Ken in a polite and apologetic manner... Then maybe he could work out something so that his loss is not as severe as his own actions have thus far made it.

Ken is a far more patient man than I am, so far he has continued to offer the possibility of some kind of compromise despite Bobby's continued insistances about the situation (the ones that directly contradict all avaliable evidence)...

First thing I personally would offer, if I were Bobby... is to make a request of the moderators to edit the title of this thread to more accurately reflect the fact that Bobby screwed up and Ken is STILL offering to at least discuss what can be done.
 
Ive not done business with ken yet but even after reading this post I still intend to. Seldom do I ever misjudge someone and Ken seems to be a decent guy and has his heart in the right place. Now if you two had an arrangment for the animals to be delivered at 8:45am and no one was there thats poor planning. Flip side to the same coin, styrofoam will hold in cold or heat and will hold out cold or heat.....I guarantee if you had a styrofoam box been packaged in cool indoors then shaded in transit it wouldnt have been nowhere near 115 degrees in that box.

I hope you get things ironed out Bobby but Ill suggest two things...rethink your packaging and shipping methods and give Ken the chance to clear the air of the delima.
 
Just my 02.

The fact of the matter is there is no way anyone can say for sure if the snakes were alive at 8:48 am. And that is Bobby's argument, He is thinking that they were, But if they were packaged properly and THEN they died you would have a much better argument Bobby. Should Ken have been there to recieve them? Probably, especially if he knew they were on the way and that they could be that early. More importantly though is this question.....If they were packaged properly would 4, 5 or even 6 hours have made differance enough to kill them? I would have to say no. That being the case one has to consider if they even survived to get to his door, and that is a just as justifiable an argument as yours Bobby because they are both what if's. The facts are much more simple I believe, In this case your shipping method was by no means acceptable for what you shipped, Ken should have been there to recieve them. Those two statements being fact here is what I think....( Remember, this is just my opinion ) I believe Bobby is somewhere in the area of 75 to 85% at fault here, First and foremost they should have been shipped correctly, That is not an arguable issue, It is a fact. Ken you should have been there to recieve them, that is a responsibilty of the reciever. I honestly dont think it would have made much differance in this case but it is still something that should have been done.

The fact you were so fast to post everywhere that Ken is a bad guy really bothers me Bobby, It seems to me Ken has been trying to resolve this with you. Ken has also been very nice and inteligent throughout this ordeal. And has even tried to email you to work this out. In my opinion, the fact that Ken has very little fault here ( 15 to 25% ) Yet he is the one who is trying to make it right tells me without a doubt that Ken is a GOOD GUY. Once again this was just MY opinion. Thank you
 
Hello every one. I have never done business with either person. But I think of Bobby as a friend and I am going to look at this from an outside view.

Bobby
Maybe you should have used better packing methods with this one my friend. When I see the DOA posts most of the time it comes down to shipping. No one can say for sure that the animals would have been alive if you used a different method. They just do not know. Would it have helped sure but saved them who knows.


Ken
If you got a tracking # maybe you should have called and got an arrival date/time. or atleast tried. It can be said that they could be still alive if they were signed for on the first delivery attempt. But as with the packing method no one knows.

To both of the parties
I feel now after reading all posts and it seems that both parties are saying the same thing just not agreeing on fault. That it is the fault of both parties. If I buy/trade and animal I make sure the shipper knows how to pack. Shoot I would even double check the big time breeders. lol I would say it is this hot or cold here make sure you do this or that. No As the shipper the same should have happened. So both are at fault here. IMHO

I think the name calling is not called for here. It does not help anything here. I will say Bobby is a great person and I would buy from him. He knows his stuff. This is just a mistake on both parties. It happens. It is sad but it happens.

Maybe both perties can work this out and everything be as close to fixed as can be.

maybe just maybe this is getting to blown up and two good people just need to sit down and talk about it.

The blame on this is just not one person IMHO.
 
To start I am also a long time friend of Ken Foose and have had many successful business dealings with him.

That said I have to add here that IMO the shipper bears the burden of responsibility in these transactions. At a minimum he/she is responsible for

1. Properly packing the animals for the weather conditions.

2. Making sure the receiver is going to be there the day of shipment.

3. Making sure the receiver knows when (time and day) the package is going to be delivered.

4. Supplying the receiver with the tracking number.

There are probably more. I have shipped many animals and I never send an animal unless I have previously heard back from the buyer that they will be there on that day. In this case I think it goes to common sense that a pet shop is not normally open before 9 am. Many don't open until 10 am. Anyone that has been in the business for "13 years" should know this.

Gary. I do not expect the receiver to use the tracking number to determine when the package is coming. It is my responsibility to tell him. The tracking number, IMO, is supplied so that the receiver can check into a package that did not arrive at the specified time.

Lastly, regardless of the weather, it is unconscionable to send any animal in a plain cardboard box. Even on an 80 degree day, an animal can cook if only left in the direct sun for an hour or so. When you (Bobby P) say you have been shipping this way for 13 years, I can only reply that you have been extremely lucky. Beyond lucky.

Ken. Your initial response is one of the most thoughtful, calm, and even handed replies I have ever read in response to an open and IMO unfounded attack. You missed your calling, you should have been a politician. Yeah right! lol
 
WE WILL NEVER KNOW HOW MY SHIPPING IS SINCE KEN WASNT THERE IN THE MORNING TO GET THE BOX.

Like I said put your personal friendship aside and just READ what I posted. Just so you know, with temps in the 60's and 70's here where I live I could have left them outside for 24hrs before pickup and they would have been fine.

If the box would have not been delivered until 1pm his time that would have been on me. BUT, it was there at 8am and he wasnt, so thats on him.

One more thing. I booked the pickup online but they didnt pick the animals up until 530pm so know do the math
 
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