kingsnake.com Bad Business practices.

[JETZEN]

Thanks Harlin,
even tho i don't like ks.com, i hope you do very well there.






John Sommerfield

 

[Mangshan]

Hey John.
Thank you for the last reply.
I wish you the best as well.
Regardless of any thoughts about ks.com....we ALL know that Faunaclassifieds and the BOI are GREAT forums!
Kudos to Rich Z. for his hard work maintaining this site!
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

 

[JETZEN]

Harlin,
i agree Rich has done a great piece of work with this site.
i use it to do background checks on sellers.
and i love to post good guy reports.

this site is the main reason i have never been ripped-off in the hobby,(yet)lol!


John Sommerfied

 

[Mangshan]

WOW!
Glad to hear that you have been lucky enough to dodge the dim-wits. (rip off artists)
I am sure that this site saves people a lot of money and a boatload of grief.
It is nice to come here and read posts of satisfied customers...and you are right, it is great to post about the Good Guys and Gals in this business/hobby.

I was ripped off back in 1994....wish Rich had this site going back then!
At the time it really hurt. I remember it as if it were yesterday.
Now I can look back...and I see that the jerk who ripped me off, also likely taught me some of the best lessons I have learned in this hobby....not that I want to learn any lessons like that again!
Sort of like hitting you thumb with a hammer.
You learn fairly quickly where the head of the nail is....not that you enjoyed the lesson....but that it is a lesson you will not soon forget!
In this case, I learned to trust my gut instinct. And I learned that the Good Guys usually run in the same circles....The old "birds of a feather" saying....bad guys seem to run in their own circles as well.
I have never had to bring a negative post to the BOI about someone trying to rip me off....and I hope I never will. But it is nice to be able to do your homework prior to dealing with a new contact.
Oh, and the guy who ripped me off...he's still around. I have often thought of posting something about him...to spare someone else of the same grief.
But, alas...it was so long ago. And I have allowed it to become water under the bridge. Hopefully this person has made an effort to change their ways.
And the lessons I learned, though painful, have helped me to improve my business.
Because, I also learned what NOT to do....now I am able to see the whole incident in a positive light.....although I would still never deal with that person again.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

 

[JETZEN]

Harlin,
Beats me why there's so many rip-offs, jailbirds,deadbeats,liars and troublemakers in this hobby.
One of my gripes about ks.com is that it knowingly allows those types to post in their classifieds.(or they used to)
And i have discoverd a few ripps on ks.com with the use of the BOI.

I guess it's just something that goes with the territory overthere.


J.Sommerfield
kingsnake keeper

 

[shrap]

Harlin,
Beats me why there's so many rip-offs, jailbirds,deadbeats,liars and troublemakers in this hobby.....

Any hobby/industry where business is not being done face to face is just leaving itself wide open for folks to abuse it.

Prior to the internet it was mail fraud, and phone scams. So it is not so much this hobby as it is ones ability to stay anonymous via the net.

That is my 2 cents.

 

[JETZEN]

Shrap,
what you just said makes too much sense for me to disagree.





thanks,

J.Sommerfield

 

[catsandrats]

Kingsnake.com is the best

There would not be a good business for reptiles without kingsnake.com. What would we do without it? I know I can't do much business without it, buying or selling. I live in an area where nice reptiles are rare and everyone around here only wants cheap reptiles for cheap prices. Kingsnake.com is the main source of reptile selling and breeding.

 

[catsandrats]

Sorry, mistake on last line. It suppose to say selling and buying.

 

[Mangshan]

John,

To me, it seems that every avocation has a few jerks running around in it.
It is a relief to know that the good guys still do seem to out number the rotten apples.
The flip side about your gripe with ks.com is that they HAVE been involved in nailing quite a few of these rip-offs when the offences were more than petty crimes.

Someone made the point that Ks.com is more of a business community and Fauna is more of a neighborhood community. This is fairly accurate.

As a business Ks.com does not have a lot of time or interest to get involved with squabbles between it's patrons. As a business type site, I can understand that they cannot play advocate to one side or the other...it might needlessly cost them an account/patron.
However, when a serious offence is committed they do step in, and sometimes even work alongside law enforcement agencies and the Courts to solve help solve the problem... and get rid of the bad apple.
Likewise, it is also better to shed the account of someone who talks negatively about your business...than it is to maintain the account ("business" relationship) with someone who has nothing nice to say about your service.

Things are a little different here on Fauna...as it is a different community.
I am sure that Rich would tell you that Paid Advertising and the "business end" is still vital to the ongoing maintenance of this site. Nonetheless, the "Community" is the focus here...our community must watch out for one-another. Fauna is different from KS.com.
It is a warm friendly site....Kinsnake is a business type site.

They are both good places to visit and patronize. Both are useful, and in my opinion integral to a maintaining good presence in the herp community.
Although they have different approaches/philosophies....both serve a purpose.
It would be wonderful if the owners of each of these sites are able to see eye-to-eye and work with one-another to improve the hobby for ALL of us.
Easier said than done. A lot of murky water has passed under that bridge!
But, you never know. Perhaps someday they will be able to make amends and team up to REALLY knock our socks off. I won't hold my breath...just a nice thought.
Take care,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

 

[bcherps]

Reply to catsandrats

I have to disagree that kingsnake is best for the market.

I have been breeding for selling purposes for almost a decade now, and due to kingsnake I have lost business on several levels.

1. Now the local shops can find out that joe blow in california has the same animals as I do in Florida, but becuase joe is a hobbyist and needs money to buy an x-box he wants more than his snakes he is willing to sell them for half the amount I am-becuase I need a certian amount to keep my business afloat. If you take a million sellers, someone is always having a crisis, divorce, or just plan wants out of a specie, so they are willing to dump the animals. Many KS buyers now think that the lowest price they saw something for should be the average everyday price. I cannot discount my animals 75% to compete with jane doe's divorce sale, but that is what is expected now-a-days.

2. Now everyone can get almost everything at anytime-info, snakes, equipment. So I have seen a sharp decline in many of the herp society attendances, non sale show/info display type meet and greets, and scientific hep talks.

3. Increase in the distrust of good breeders hets, becuase of the amount of scammers in the het world.

4. Now my being an official business means much less, becuase a kid dealing 5 states with a nifty website looks more like a business than I do. I am too busy feeding and breeding-I don't have the time to build websites, photoshop, and create fake accounts to give myself kudos all over the web.

5. Kingsnake has almost eliminated seasonal depression and seasonal pricing. 5 years ago I used to hold a hundred balls specifically for december. I used to be able to get 32.50 each, now this year I bought females in january for $16.

Kingsnake has been great for the buyer, the bargian hunter, and retail shops that do not have any/or limited local breeders. However, it has severely hurt the middle sized breeder, and herp societies.

I am regaining my sales base by breeding animals that are not on the kingsnake buyer level, and getting global accounts, but I had to leave behind many species that were near and dear to my heart and hobby.

thanks
ben cole

 

[DISCERN]

Ben,

While I do see your points, I do believe that the results you are seeing are more just from a standpoint of the fact that the internet now exists and the hobby has more people in it than ever. That means accessability and competition is more than ever before. With that, the choices that buyers have is really vast. To me, it is more about the internet existing overall, thus creating what you have seen. Kingsnake just happens to be a site that is the biggest in the business.

I saw price drops and fierce competition in the breeding scene down here in TX. back when I bred in the mid nineties, and this was before Kingsnake.

Overall, the internet now exists and is a commonplace for way more business in this hobby than ever before.

 

[Jim O]

Sorry, Ben, but while I sympathize with your plight I disagree with your position wholeheartedly. Competition is the basis of capitalism. If you can do it for less and still make a profit then you are going to draw business. There will always be "Going Out of Business" and "Fire" sales. The big companies still compete with them successfully.

An animal's "worth" is what the market determines its worth to be. If you can't sell your animals for what you are asking, you are asking too much. Ask GM and Ford about it. They can't sell their product because Toyota and Honda make an equivalent (or better) product and sell it for less.

Now back to the Kingsnake.com bickering. ...

 

[catsandrats]

Reply to BCherps

I am in a different situation than you but I do understand what you are saying. I am just starting a business of reptile breeding and I find kingsnake.com very useful. I live in upstate NY and there is no good reptiles around here. They are all cheaper WC reptiles in the pet stores that die in a week or two. The only pet store that sells good quality cb reptiles is Petco and then it's limited on what they get (Leopard Geckos, Crested Geckos, Ball Pythons, and Cornsnakes). So to get nice reptiles I have to depend on the internet. I have gotten a lot of nice reptiles from Kingsnake.com, a lot of them come from Good reputation breeders like Ben Seigels, JNJ Reptiles, Infinity Reptiles, etc. I have also got ripped off a couple of times by others. I have just learned to check on references from anyone I buy or trade from. That is where Fauna BOI comes in quite handy.

As for me getting in the Reptile Business I depend on Kingsnake.com and Faunaclassifieds to sell. It would be a waste of time for me to try to open a pet store around here because reptiles are not popular up here. Most people up here do not know the difference between a ball python and a cornsnake. I am very serious about starting my own business and building a good reputation for it, so posting ads on Kingsnake and Fauna is one out of two options for me. The second option is moving to a place where reptiles are in demand, which is a possibility for the future for me.

Now I have a question maybe you can help me with! If you were in a situation like I am, how would you start out a reptile business. I have been building up on innovatory and have over 60 snakes that are all of good - great quality and being well taken care of. I have thousands of dollars invested in these guys and planning on spending thousands more. I have just started posting on kingsnake.com and have had great luck so far.

 

[bcherps]

Hey,


Catsandrats-contact me at [email protected] and I can help you with startup questions.

Others I do understand competetion, and supply and demand curves. Economics was a required class while getting my undergrad degree. However, since Kingsnake has been around the supply and demand curves don't follow the rules anymore.

I'll give you a recent example. Last month I produced several clutches of spider balls. These were high quality, no wobble heads in any, average reduced black, but super high white, bright and large animals. Almost all I would deem breedstock quality. I looked at kingsnake and saw several ads for spiders in 200gram range for 700-750 range. So I emailed a friend who is a legit business who buys from me occasionally and offered a ten lot for $400 each. He got back to me with "Nope, that is a retail price". Well please tell me what retail store is selling breedstock quality spiders for $400 to the public. So I email another guy and he says he will have his spiders at $250 when they hatch. I ask when they are going to hatch, and his reply is his females are gravid now and won't lay until late july. So we are looking at a september hatch. Septemer babies are not may babies. Males are a breed year behind, and he still has no idea if his animals are pet grade, have wobbles, or are truely breedstock grade. So I talk to a few "household names" in the ball world. One came to my facility when he was in town, and I went to anothers and between the two of them they paid me $400 cash, and $450 trade for my entire 2007 production of spiders(that have no het status). So why would a household name buy my spiders for that much when other business's and kingsnake jobbers are claiming that is retail pricing? How can breeders compare thier animals that is not even produced are cheaper than my animals that are already on the ground and feeding?

People did the same thing with albinos all winter. I had a ten lot back in february/march for 1250 each. People claimed albinos were 700 but when I tried to buy they said well I don't have any or I have this one dinker that I couldn't get to eat for 2 months. I finally sold my 10 lot at my desired price through the show circuit.

Also kingsnake has created a whole army of jobbers who think that they should not have to pay sales tax, get wholesale pricing when they are buying 3 animals, and when giving wholesale prices expect grade-A or breedstock quality animals with all sorts of guarantees and paperwork.

I have managed retail, I have been a jobber, and now I own an S-corp, and produce 2000+ animals a year. I have seen the market from all sides. Some people blame petco's for the fall of the mom and pop exotics stores, other people blame the internet, and so on and so on. But I can tell you that KS has effected me more than petco's/petsmart's ever could.

Thanks
ben

 

[bcherps]

ONe more thing

One thing I did forget to add.

As for me, I was able to flex and survive, and in fact this will be my highest grossing year ever. But if you are solely a jobber, and only sell on KS-what happens when kingsnake bans you, or your shipper decides to block your packages becuase they found out your were shipping reptiles without a cert?

Kingsnake has made lots of little guys a lot of money, but if your account goes sour you will be in a world of hurt mighty quick.

Thanks
ben cole

 

[Rick Staub]

Harlin Wall posted;

The advertisements in my account, were however, all deleted....rather than just being hidden from public view....until I had a chance to fax the licenses.
This forced me to rewrite each advertisement....not a big deal really.

The same thing happened to me though I do consider it a big deal. It takes a lot of time to type out all those ads just to have them deleted when they could have easily just hidden them. In fact, in the email I got it states that they were hidden though my guess is there is no chance of getting them back after I submit my business license. Here is the excerp from the email

Dear Sir or Madam

Your recent classified ad entitled "2007 male probable super hypo" has been removed due to a violation of our Terms of Service.

Excerpt from the TOS:

Cannot post as a business, even in the body of the ad, without being verified by our Account Review Department:

ALL ads hidden:

I guess I should be used to it by now but this is just another example of the cold and impersonal way they do business over there. You would think that they would have sent out a warning email at least to let you know that this new policy needs to be met or all your ads will be pulled and deleted.

 

[Wraith]

Why don't you just save a copy of your ads in a text file on your computer. I do that with my ads...???? it's good common sense to always have a back up system.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Someone made the point that Ks.com is more of a business community and Fauna is more of a neighborhood community. This is fairly accurate.

Not accurate at all if you look at the percentage of each site that's devoted to one or the other. Kingsnake has a more heavily posted to, more heavily read classifieds section, sure... and it's the major draw for a lot of the users who are going to utilize the site but... Kingsnake also has a far more extensive set of forums if you really need to know "whAT do my sanke eets?!/1?1//!!?!?1one!!??eleven!!" or if you've just got to have an article about a woman breastfeeding puppies or absolutely can't do without the interaction of their (snicker, snicker) expert forum mods.

KS may be a venue through which more business is done, but it is not a businesslike place. It's not the place to talk about business with other people in it, it's really not the place to seek out professionals for interaction (despite the continued tendency of some truly genuinely worthwhile people who patrol their forums, start a thread and you'll get forty brain damaged types who've owned an animal for three months that want to chime in with idiocy for each credible member) and it's really not a place that has a history of professional interaction with it's users and customer base.

Kingsnake is a good place to do business through but that doesn't automatically turn into a business community. The community over there has very, very few individuals who could be said to engage in business when looked at as a percentage of the total active member base.

 

[JETZEN]

reply to catsandrats

There would not be a good business for reptiles without kingsnake.com. What would we do without it? I know I can't do much business without it, buying or selling. I live in an area where nice reptiles are rare and everyone around here only wants cheap reptiles for cheap prices. Kingsnake.com is the main source of reptile selling and breeding.

ks.com is not the best, it is common knowledge that they have even tried to fix prices on certain high end reptiles.
Would the best internet site for selling reptiles stoop at something that low?
What happened to free enterprise?
So what if they have more traffic? The person with the best deals is gonna get the customers regardless of where they're sold.

And if customers want cheap reptiles well then that's what they're gonna buy.

The customer is always right(or used to be).



J.Sommerfield