Kingsnake problem, anyone else had this problem with classified account?

[KJUN]

Also, Jeff owns nothing, at least not until Bob has been paid in full and since we're talking about a felon (I think right) here I would have to say Jeff;s going to do what he can to hide anything he is worth. Bob has all the right in the world to look into it and Savannah filing that court order only makes me think she is hiding something!

Very good point. I've got a suspicion that this is correct, too.
KJ

 

[KJUN]

Bob, I would contact the host of her site and have the hosting pulled, fairly mean but Jeff B did it to me (nice move btw Jeff) and I'm sure they would do it for you as I doubt they wanna deal with the legal issues and I'm sure something in their TOS would keep her from posting the info on this there.

OK for Bob to have done but bad for Jeff to have done? I must have missed something here. I'm serious. I'm not trying to be a smart-butt or anything. I think having someone's page removed from a site you do NOT own, without a valid reason that would stand up in court, isn't a good thing. Stressing the need for the reason, of course.

Hey, wouldn't that be a violation of his restraining order? LOL.
KJ

 

[MikeWilbanks]

Savannah - if you have not done so, get an attorney.

Good advice Roger, she's going to need one, or maybe two.

 

[MikeWilbanks]

OK, I give up, how was this information known to Bob Clark and Mike Wilbanks? Was Savannah that loose with the information about her sales and customers? I mean, if someone posted here exactly what I shipped out to my customers on Tuesday, I would be rather flabbergasted at them having that sort of information.

It was obtained as part of an ongoing and in depth investigation.

 

[Bob Clark]

Here's an email from Bing Shee (Mrs. Anson Wong) offering me dwarf Burmese:

----- Original Message -----
From: Anson
To: Bob Clark
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:00 PM


Bob,

Have 2 females now, U$8,000 each.

Bing Shee


Josh Burm Guy- You've been singing the same song for a while now but its not necessary that I buy everything that is offered to me, nor does it prove anything if I did or did not buy these animals. They were offered to me from Europe for $2000. each. Savannah asked $60,000 each for them, BTW!

 

[Classic Dum's]

You know what is really sad about this thread, that people like Jolly Rancher there can think its acceptable for someone to pow wow around with convicted theives/smugglers like Jeff Miller. If her buddy/partner/delta shipping friend whatever he is was a convicted drug dealer who served his time and went clean then ya I could see the forgive and forget bit. But open your eyes mr jolly people like Jeff M put our hobby in joepardy. So for anyone to try and justify her actions with him I am sorry but thats just wrong. Its obvious since his release he has not atempted to go stright either. He hasnt paid Bob one cent of the money he rightfully owes him and almost imediatly upon his release is running around and shipping animals for Savanna. Going straight would mean paying Bob and staying as far away from reptiles as he can. He hasnt done either so Id bet $500 that in time, maybe not this year, maybe not next year but sometime well all see his name in the headlines again for some illegal reptile operation.

Now as far as your remarks about Adam and the mites. I for one have never heard anything of this as I am sure no one else has. Ive seen bobs animals at shows even bought a few from time to time and all were very clean animals 100% up to par. So where Adam gets this from whos knows and who cares. Sometimes I honestly think Adam lives in another realm or something. Sometimes when reading Adams posts I sware I hear that theme from the twilight zone, do do do do....do do do do. However for once I have to give Adam some credit as he does seem to be right on the money about a few other things within this thread. So he may have done a flip but atleast he is seeing through the crap( IM not attacking you Adam so dont throw on the war paint). And as much as he hates Jeff B I am sure he is even man enough to admit that Jeff did a huge favor to all of us by kicking her off ksnake whatever his reasons for doing so where. Neither Jeff M nor anyone affliated/buddies/partners/ someone who allows him to ship 15g's worth their animals should be allowed to conduct buinsess anywhere within this community. He has been convited NOT charge or accused, convicted! He had his chance at inocent till proven guilty and he was PROVEN guilty. Savanna admits she let him ship those animals, oh and he helps her out from time to time to, that makes the truth painfully obvious to me.

I feel for Savanna I truely do. I think she is young and niave got coached into this by Jeff. I think he probally convinced her that everything would be alright and now even if she does sever her ties to him shell always have a hard time earning respect within the community. Savanna you need to sever those ties to Jeff, TODAY!!! Youll find that any respectable buisness will do exactly like Jeff B did and slam the door in your face as long as you are assoicated with him in any way shape or form.

Now I dont know this to be fact but I have my suspisions about who those animals actually belong to. If by chance it was Jeffs money that funded it or partially funded it, savanna take them and walk away. Whats he going to do sue ya?? Ya right!! if some of those are by chance his or partially his all hes going to do is whine and snivel. If he admits to ownership or even partial owner ship #1 Bob will take them #2 Jeff will be in for a bunch of legal problems because they were imported, he cant legally import anything and him admitting to some kind of ownership over those animals would implicate him in the importation of them. Like I said I dont know any of that as fact but have my opinions based on what I have seen here and if anything above is even remotly true just walk away, thats all ya have to do. The reptile community as a whole is way to small for you to hide and conduct buisness within.

Anyway I think that pretty much anything that needs to be said has been said.

 

[Bob Clark]

Here's an email from one of my European customers:

----- Original Message -----
From: Au.bengali
To: Bob Clark
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: snake price list


Bob,
sorry, I did not know it was hollyday,
did you have the list with burmses for me ??

the dwarf burmese womes from one Islands from indonesia as far as know, and they grow only 2.50 ( +/-)
Miss Wong ask 2000$ for them ...

I would like the shipment next week if possible
regis

Savannah has no exclusive. The animals can still be bought and for less than $60K

 

[Darin Chappell]

This appears to be one of those threads "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing!" I mean, there will be a lot of posting about who said what and when, the thread will begin to take on a life of its own, but I highly doubt that we will be getting to the bottom of this anytime soon.

I find it difficult to believe that an 18 year old has the money and connections to accomplish on her own what Savannah says she has done. I also find it difficult to understand how someone savvy enough in the world of business to have a purported corner on the market of a highly desireable morph is too tenderhearted to talk to Bob Clark on the phone. But those are just my difficulties, I suppose.

I can certainly understand why Bob is concerned (if not convinced) that Jeff Miller may well be involved with Savannah and her corporation. After all, he has his suspicions about her capacities as I outlined above, but he also has a very personal interest in finding out if Miller is making any money for him to collect. More power to Bob in that effort of collecting money from Miller, I say!

However, there is not as much explicit mystery here about Savannah's use of pronouns, her exaggerated timeline, or her formation of a corporation as has been suggested by a few. C'mon everyone! We all know firsthand of people right here on the old BOI who have pumped up their business image by using "We" instead of "I." Call it the "Royal We," if you choose, but that is not so hard to accept as a possibility. Further, saying you have been doing something for a few years is a lot better than saying "I'm 18 1/2 now, and I started at 16 . . . want to send me a lot of money?!?!?!?" To the same point, those three little letters "Inc." make one appear established and ready for business. Would I have used that tactic just starting out? Nope. But I didn't buy high dollar snakes at 18 either!

It may very well be that Jeff Miller is financing, expediting, maybe even running Morph Specialties, but I think Bob will have a very hard time proving that sufficiently to motivate a court to take action. However, the standard of proof for motivating JeffB is far lower. JeffB obviously looked at Savannah's situation, and, for whatever reason, determined that she was more headache to him than her account money was worth to him. Fair enough; it's his site, and he has every right to do that. Even if it could be proven that JeffB did this simply because Bob asked him to do so, how is that illegal? I sold out of all of my animals this year, and even had to buy some more to fill an order, but I do not advertise on KS. I don't buy the "You have to be on KS to be legitimate" nonsense, so I also don't buy the "JeffB unfairly rules the reptile world" nonsense, either.

Anyway, I have no doubt that this will turn into a full-fledged docu-drama here on the BOI. I just hope that whomever it is that is being the crook is caught and punished. I'm just not going to hold my breath on it.

 

[TJEvans]

SPECULATION!!!!!

This entire thread so far has been so calk full of some serious speculation.

How does Savanah have that kind of money?
Gee, I don't know....inheritance? Lottery? Savings? Perhaps she had a parent that passed away and collected SS until she was 18, and SAVED all of it?

There ae SO many answers that could all be true. What doe it matter to anyone else HOW she got the money. Jeff Miller had supposedly just gotten out of prison and had a HUGE legal debt to pay off. Please don't speculate that he had this outrageous ammount of money stashed away that the courts didn't find.

Here's another point of speculation.....
Savanah HAS an import license (according to testimony )
PERHAPS......Jeff Miller HELPED her get it....you know, what forms to fill out, who to contact, etc. PERHAPS, she incorporated with a couple of friends (other than Miller) and he just simply acts as a professional mentor. Obviously the guy knows HOW to import, and deal with reptiles, albeit illegally.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that until Savanah posts some of the facts that people are looking for, it is merely speculation that she is in ANY kind of business relationship with Jeff Miller. So he took some snakes to the airport. PERHAPS he's an employee of hers?

 

[WebSlave]

From what I have heard, quite a number of people have gotten into this business because of a large inheritance, insurance settlement, law suit settlement, generous wealthy grandparents, or just hooking up with a rich partner with lots of money but no experience, putting a large amount of money into their pockets to spend on animals.

Let's face it, normal working stiffs like me and you are not going to have the kind of money to throw around on $15,000+ snakes. But there are certainly circumstances arising that do put some people in the position to be able to afford such things, and the history of this business has it's own share of them.

I don't see anything unusual about this sort of thing happening yet again. Heck, SOMEONE has to be buying those high end animals and they all don't have to be 30+ years old, do they?

 

[MikeWilbanks]

. Jeff Miller had supposedly just gotten out of prison and had a HUGE legal debt to pay off.

Remember, Jeff Miller stole a 2 million dollar project from Bob. The animals were never recovered. It is not diffucult to conceive that he had a huge stash of cash waiting for him when he got out of prison. Stolen money, like the kind Jeff had is not the kind you just put in the bank. If the cash was hidden somewhere, the courts would never find it. The huge legal debt that you speak of, has not had one cent paid on it.

Sure there are other ways to get money and some have been mentioned here. We have all seen people come in over the years, some with thousands of dollars to spend. But how many have come in with thousands of dollars to spend on reptiles and STARTED in the high risk game of wiring money overseas and importing animals? All the people that I have seen come in new to the hobby, start dealing with American breeders and work their way up, most never play the import game. It's too risky. How many of you, when you were 18, woke up one day and said "I believe that I will make some contacts in Maylasia, wire thousands of dollars to these people I just met and get in the reptile business?

How much evidence do you require? An 18yr old kid teams up with a Maylasian exporter and buys thousands of dollars worth of animals. This Maylasian exporter just happens to be Jeff Miller's old contact. Jeff Miller just happens to clean cages and handle shipping for the innocent 18yr old. The pieces of this puzzle aren't creating a picture for you?

If Savannah had these contacts on her own as she claims, why involve Miller at all? She had to know his involvement would cause her trouble.

Also, what about the cages that Jeff Miller, himself purchased just before the animals were imported. Could these cages be traced to Savannah's facility? Are these the cages that the pictures on the MorphSpecialities site show?

 

[Hues1]

Savannah.....are you still going to or did you graduate from Buckeye Union H.S. this past season ??? or maybe Corona H.S. ???

18 years old, wheeling and dealing with the big boys....NOT.

I've got nothing against you personally, but if you keep company with people like Jeff Miller....I'm sorry to say, but you've basically taped a bullseye on your chest.

Even if everything you've said up to this point has been true.....the whole Jeff Miller thing pretty much destroyed any credibility you might or may have.

 

[ms_terese]

it is merely speculation that she is in ANY kind of business relationship with Jeff Miller. So he took some snakes to the airport. PERHAPS he's an employee of hers?

People who do work for companies are typically considered employees, which would constitute a business relationship. If Jeff Miller is an employee, Bob Clark would certainly have a vested interest in that relationship, so that he can attach those wages.

If Jeff Miller is working "under the table" for this corporation, as in doing work but not being set up as an actual employee, that is illegal.

However, it IS all speculation, and it IS off topic for the thread. I must say I'm glad to have the new information about Jeff Miller out there though. The herp community needs to stay aware when one of the verified bad guys gets back into the hobby.

I don't think Savanna will post here any further, so if there was more information about the cancellation of her account at KS, which was the topic of this thread, we'll probably never know what it was.

 

[Classic Dum's]

it is merely speculation that she is in ANY kind of business relationship with Jeff Miller.

Oh come on, do you allow people to wander around with 15g's worth of your animals?? I know I wouldnt(I dont have that much in animals) if I had that much in animals. Theres two people in this world that would ever lay hands on them, my better half and myself, NO ONE ELSE. If I was to sell them you can rest assured NO ONE would touch those animals untill they were safely in the hands of Delta Airlines fully insured and I had paper work to prove it. No one would touch those animals. Would you allow anyone else to go running around with 15g's worth of your animals?? Espacially someone like Jeff Miller a convicted theif and smuggler?????

How much evidence do you require? An 18yr old kid teams up with a Maylasian exporter and buys thousands of dollars worth of animals. This Maylasian exporter just happens to be Jeff Miller's old contact.

You forgot the part about how she got her buddy(Jeffs), old maylasian contact info through and directory and not Jeff himself.

I got their numbers from a directory put out years ago by a company in Lodi California, great Valley Serpt.

Him we know she lied to Bob about knowing Jeff. Did she also lie right here in this board about where her contact info came from? I dunno

 

[Hues1]

I got their numbers from a directory put out years ago by a company in Lodi California, great Valley Serpt. [/QUOTE

Actually I believe that was almost 5 years ago...back in 1999 or 98. I dont remember exactly....but I do know that it hasnt been in circulation for at least 3 plus years.

 

[trisha]

A few questions for Mr. Clark

To: Bob Clark
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:00 PM
Bob,

Have 2 females now, U$8,000 each.

Bing Shee

They were offered to me from Europe for $2000

Bob,
sorry, I did not know it was hollyday,
did you have the list with burmses for me ??

the dwarf burmese womes from one Islands from indonesia as far as know, and they grow only 2.50 ( +/-)
Miss Wong ask 2000$ for them ...

I would like the shipment next week if possible
regis


To me this is not being offered the snakes at $2000. So where is the e-mail from Ms. Wong offering them for $2000

Also, what about the cages that Jeff Miller, himself purchased just before the animals were imported. Could these cages be traced to Savannah's facility? Are these the cages that the pictures on the MorphSpecialities site show?

Now we have this. Does someone have a copy of bill of sale to Miller for these cages? If I missed something in a post then my bad.



sent Savannah two polite emails about this.
I think there was more than 2 sent. I would like to see Clarks e-mails from Savannah. She posted her e-mails.

This is the main question I would like to see answered.
Savannah,
Still waiting for you call. Unless I hear from you today I will expose you and Jeff on Kingsnake. Bob Clark

How did you plan on exposing her???

 

[Classic Dum's]

I dont doubt there was a list, I just have serious doubt about her actually getting Wongs contact from the list instead of Jeff as she claims. I think its safe to say that considering Jeffs recent release from a several year prison term that his contact info printed on that list is outdated and invaled. So I really dont think she found Jeff through that list, nor do I think she found Wong through it either.

 

[Hues1]

Jason

What I was refering to was the list hasnt been around for a while...so if she did see it and did have a copy of it...she would've been around 14-15 years old at the time.

Not to mention that the list wasnt exactly free.....it was big bucks and it wasnt offered to the general public.

 

[JuliusSqueezer]

hmmm just stumbled into this today. fun reading!

I never joined KS anyway because I hate the layout of the forums and before I ever had time to get familiar with the clutter there..I found a much better site...it was new but growing and I stuck with it and now it has over 4000 members. Because we offer free classifieds, Jeff banned any mention of Redtailboa.net on KS too...woopie who cares...we are still alive and well.

I'm extremely excited that there is a new burm morph that Bob hasn't sunk his claws into yet. I just hope that this line can be produced responsibly and without inbreeding them into the dirt. Virtually every other burm morph seems to be suffering greatly from the (herpmills) from which they originated from...Labs, Greens, Granites, Blondes...where are they all disappearing to? Seems to be a really bad chronic RI problem popping up in these animals sometime before they hit 3 years old....unfortunatly with a little powerfeeding and bad morals or lack of being informed...this is plenty of time to reproduce and pass this gene on. I would love to see some nice breeding projects where sibling pairs are not offered for sale. Sorry Bob, but just because you have so far been able to get your cut of pretty much every burm and retic morph found...this doesn't mean you are entitled to a monopoly. Also...finding out about the source of income from a man who owes you is one thing..He served his time and was released. He has a right to make a living. How else would he pay you? How does preventing him from making money help your cause? Who are you to even question what friends someone chooses? Just because you have a problem with him...this does not make him illegal to befriend. What if you went to jail for this harrasment that you are unleashing on Savannah? when you get out..is noone allowed to speak to you ever again because you are a convicted harrasser? I don't know Miller...I have read the info about him on your page. I certainly don't condone what he allegedly has done to you...allthough I don't condone inbreeding, powerfeeding and breeding for a genetic flaw such as amelanism either but unfortunatly at this time your contributions to our happy little herpworld seem to be legal...Not so sure now though...I think you may have stepped over the line a bit with harassment and she certainly has a good civil case. The man (Miller) has a nasty past. I could understand bashing her if she was part of his ring then and then hooked back up when he got out. The point is...he is out. He served his time. Until it is proven that he is breaking the law right now, then he has a right to have friends and Savannah certainly has the right to befriend him. even if he is an ex-con...he has experiences and contacts that are legit and still valuable information that shouldn't be lost ...just because it offends Bob that someone would ever be friends with a man that ripped off Bob.

Savannah, you are more than welcome to offer your animals for sale FREE of charge on our classifieds at redtailboa.net...I'll take an unrelated pair when they drop to under 200 bucks. Might be awhile huh?

 

[Adam Block]

You know, maybe Savannah was helped by Jeff just to tick off Bob, hell, I would do that if I were Jeff. He can't run a snake business so he helps her do what she needs to run it. The $15,000 in snakes from an all honesty standpoint is not like $15,000,000 and while it's still a lot of money it's not so much you can't trust somebody that's a friend with. Whatever he is to us doesn't matter he's a friend to her.

Regardless, as far as I know Savannah has done nothing wrong and I've seen nothing to show anything else. Knowing isn't enough, OJ got let go and there was more to show he did it then there is to show Savannah did anything.

Now as far as your remarks about Adam and the mites. I for one have never heard anything of this as I am sure no one else has. Ive seen bobs animals at shows even bought a few from time to time and all were very clean animals 100% up to par.

Why are you addressing me and not Bob? You love to get into it with me but we have the other party in this thread Jason so now would maybe be a good time to ask the source instead of always trying to attack me, I doubt Bob would deny it and for that matter has yet to say it's never been in issue in his collection. Seems like a very silly waste of our time for you and I to act like children bickering over something when Bobs here, unless of course it's the bickering you were trying to start and not the facts you were trying to find.