Kingsnake problem, anyone else had this problem with classified account?

[Hues1]

*Mental Note*

Dont lie and get caught on the BOI. NOT GOOD !

 

[brucestephenson]

Now we're getting arial photos of her house? Jesus!

 

[Adam Block]

The zip code is correct according to the deed of trust filed on 01/05/99 with the Maricop County Recorder's Office. The deed is in the name of Jamie and Brenda St Vincent, a husband and wife. They have records recorded back into the '80's so it would appear they are an older couple. Maybe grandparents?

Come on this is a stretch! Maybe it's the wrong address? As for the areal photo, I just wanted to see where on a map the address was, the photo was just a click away.

 

[brucestephenson]

Adam, you are going to make my head explode!

 

[W.Wedeking]

Grandparents would make sense since AZ has a large retirement population.
Could also be mother remarried and Savannah wasn't adopted. There are many explainations.


Adam, I thought you were in time-out?

 

[Hues1]

Anybody wonder if maybe Jamie St. Vincent is tied into Jeff Miller and not Savannah ?

Or maybe Jeff Miller is more than Just an acquaintance of Savannah's...anybody seen this pic on Savannahs site.....

Notice the ring on the "finger"...maybe its Savannah herself...and maybe its not.

All just speculation.......

 

[DThomas]

Come on this is a stretch! Maybe it's the wrong address? As for the areal photo, I just wanted to see where on a map the address was, the photo was just a click away.

Thats why I said maybe. And of course it can be a wrong address. But of course, you are just making assumptions also. That is all we can do without Savannah's input. All I did was provided a little more information for the address.

 

[Hues1]

Pic for Above post

pic

 

[Adam Block]

Grandparents would make sense since AZ has a large retirement population.

Maybe Savannahs grandmother shot JR in Dallas? I'm just saying it's insane to come to all these conclusions when she hasn't even done anything wrong! You guys already got a rope and you're looking for a tree but nobody cares to stay on topic?

Did Bob ask Jeff to delete her account? I think that's a bigger issue then the population of retired people in AZ and if she's using one of their addresses.

Bob isn't looking like an angel here folks.

 

[Jules_]

I've been following this thread, and it goes everywhere. Really only a few of the same people keep posting tho. All assumptions, speculation, guess work. A bunch of detective work. I can throw my own speculations in. Maybe Savannah still lives at home, as she is 18. So maybe there wouldn't be much record of her, as she has no criminal record. Maybe Savannah hasn't ever done any great grievance to anyone. I haven't seen a single post about how she did anyone wrong on any deals. Bob himself said she wasn't a thief or a smuggler. If her only crime in this apparent jury trial in here is knowing Jeff Miller, that's not a gold star moment but I don't see how that's punishable by death. I don't see how knowing who he is would be reason for her account to be pulled by kingsnake, either. But what's really important to this original thread is, I really don't see how JeffB could learn that she knows Jeff Miller. Does he keep records of who people associate with? Or did he get a phone call from a suspicious person informing him? I have sat here, night after night, sitting on my hands, not saying a thing, but enough is enough. Bob, if you are so sure that those snakes are the work and business of Jeff Miller, someone you have said yourself you are certain has no money, then why haven't you seized them yet?
To those that have posted a single 18 year old girls home and cell phone number, personal address, and pictures of her house, shame on you.
To those that have assumed so much...
I have an S Corp. I am the sole invester, stock holder, CEO, PRES, VP and treasurer of my corp. I did this under the advice of my accountant and attorney. I knew I was getting into business and knew little else except to know that if I'm going to get into business, I'm going to need an accountant and an attorney. So I hired them. They got me the paperwork I needed and helped me fill them out and showed me where to mail them. When ever something major happens in my corp, I call them for advice. I don't find this unusual.
Personally, I believe that if someone like Bob Clark called and threatened me with the serious allegations that he was making, then I would call my attorney, whether those allegations were true or not. Before I would do much else.
Savannah did not call her attorney first, she did not call Jeff Miller first. I know this because she called me first.
I was not listening in on the phone call between Bob Clark and Savannah, I can not guess what was said. But I have a pretty good idea.
I know this because Bob Clark called me first.
Anything beyond this, I'm really not sure is anyone's business, nor is it of any importance to the real issue of this thread.
I am the Julie that showed Bob the dwarf burm at the KC show.
I am the Julie that has been friends with JeffB for years (though I haven't talked with him in about 2 years now, nothing personal against him or me, just life getting in the way).
I have had a very good business relationship with Bob Clark for years. And I hope to continue that relationship.
I also happen to know Savannah personally.
This has put me in a very awkward position. I've never visited Savannah at her home. I can't pretend to know everyone she knows. I find this hard to watch while you guys burn her at the stake like some witch trial.
Now you'll pick and pry every word I have said apart and no doubt will discover that I'm related to Tom Crutchfield or the Pope or both. Dunno.
Bob, I really am trying to give you the benefit of doubt here. But why is it okay for you to know Anson Wong for 20 years, and for you to admit you still do business with his wife, but Savannah can't even admit to knowing who Jeff Miller is without you making such a huge deal of it? I am missing something, I admit, and am willing to be corrected. I honestly didn't know she knew Jeff Miller, I don't guess that is the kind of information you go around telling everyone. But every time I think of the situation (she was honestly trying to do business with you, sell you animals) I can't see how her admitting to you that she knew who he was would help her close a deal with you. It's obvious (and for very very good reason, mind you) that he is a thorn in your side, and a sensitive subject for you. I do believe you are entitled to the money that Jeff owes you. I do believe that if Savannah is a front, then you should get the snakes. But I also believe that if she is NOT a front (and I truely do believe that she is not) then you owe her a very big apology for attempting to ruin her business on false grounds all because she knows someone you don't like and was hesitant to admit it to you on your first phone conversation.
Because I know everyone involved personally, I have tried to be objective and fair in this. Hear both sides, keep my personal opinions out of this. Something isn't feeling right, and I haven't picked out exactly what it is. How did Bob come to know that Savannah knows Miller? If she didn't tell him, who did? It's late. just thoughts. I'm tired and I've probably said too much.

 

[WebSlave]

Thank you Julie.

With this above post, how about we try to keep this thread on track and focused. I believe the entire issue, which this thread SHOULD be focused on, can be summed up in one question:

Why did Savannah get banned from kingsnake.com?

 

[Seamus Haley]

With this above post, how about we try to keep this thread on track and focused. I believe the entire issue, which this thread SHOULD be focused on, can be summed up in one question:

Why did Savannah get banned from kingsnake.com?

I have one... maybe one and a half questions, mostly due to a bit of confusion and some conflicting wording in Savannah's few posts on this thread...

Did she actually get BANNED or was her request for an account simply denied?

In one instance she states that "I never said in my post my account was canceled and never said Jeff Barringer did it."

And the email she herself posted had the following text...

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:53:00 -0500
From: "Jeff Barringer"
To:
Subject: Re: 16512 - Secure Online Credit Card Transaction

We are sorry but we will be unable to supply advertising services
to your business.

Which... based off the tense involved and the subject kind of imply that her attempt to set up an account to begin with was denied. This might not be the case, but I don't cruise KS's classifieds sections enough to see if she actually had an account that was subsequently terminated or if it was never past the initial approval stages.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that someplace in KS's TOS agreement the site owners/moderators have the right to refuse service to anyone, for any (or no) stated reason... so legally I'm pretty sure Jeff is in the clear. Morally might be another story, might not be though, which is what a lot of this speculation seems to be about.

I've got my own issues with Jeff and with Kingsnake... Kraplan is the devil incarnate and what Jeff attempted to force Rich to do crossed a massive number of lines when it came to respecting the sanctity of another website BUT...

And this is a big BUT...

Even if Jeff denied or cancelled service (or one of his staff) based solely off speculation surrounding this young woman's potential associates and even if all speculation was based off the evidence presented by Bob Clark, Kingsnake is well within it's rights to simply decide that someone is undesireable within the confines of their own website and thus deny service.

A parallel can be drawn here as well... There were comments early in that FIRE show thread that pretty much said (paraphrased here) "From a business standpoint, sometimes a promoter (web site owner) is placed between a rock and a hard place. Forced to make choices about who they wish to maintain a business relationship with when there are individuals who are incompatable. A choice must be made about who will stay and who will go." If it came down to a choice between a major advertiser... a major forum supporter... a major breeder... a major contributor to the informational resources on a website such as hosted chats, message board responses and linked care information and a startup business with somewhat questionable associations, even if the associations prove to be nothing... The decision seems pretty clear cut.

I had intended to keep this shorter... I have difficulty doing that as most people know... I'll sum up the above pretty quickly for anyone who skipped the long parts-

1)Did she actually have an account cancelled or was it simply denied during the application process?

2)Is the ability to make seemingly arbitrary decisions about approvals within KS's TOS agreement when applying?

3)Even if the choice WAS made because of her potential associations AND/OR because of pressure from Mister Clark, can anyone legitimately say it was a poor business decision?

These are, as always, simply a few thoughts I had on the subject. To be honest I kinda skimmed half the thread so if I missed anything glaringly obvious that contradicts everything i wrote, I'm sure someone will let me know.

Thanks,
-Seamus

 

[Adam Block]

Julie that's an excellent post with some great points. I think the assumptions in this thread have gone way over board and have shown me nothing to say Savannah is a bad person. I think it's a poor choice to pick a NV corp and know Jeff M. at the same time however I've made many poor choices in my life and hers may have been just that. She's either educated very well or being coached and I just can't tell.

1)Did she actually have an account cancelled or was it simply denied during the application process?

Very good point, that email could have been in responce to a declined credit card.

2)Is the ability to make seemingly arbitrary decisions about approvals within KS's TOS agreement when applying?

I don't see how much could be missed in there but just cause you say it on your TOS doesn't make it legal either. I don't know either way but a website has to follow the law no matter what their TOS is.

3)Even if the choice WAS made because of her potential associations AND/OR because of pressure from Mister Clark, can anyone legitimately say it was a poor business decision?

Well, I don't see Wal-Mart turning away OJ when he goes shopping. I mean from a business standpoint Jeff make poor choices due to the fact that I think he's fairly emotional. That's fine I don't really care but they're poor choices.

Look at eBay, they have rules, you follow them and you're fine if not you're warned a few times and gone. Very even rules that effect all in the same way. Wise business choice and look at the result.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I don't see how much could be missed in there but just cause you say it on your TOS doesn't make it legal either. I don't know either way but a website has to follow the law no matter what their TOS is.

I'm fairly sure that denials of service are completely legal, I see disclaimers such as "Management reserves the right to refuse service." all over the place, online, through mail order businesses, on television infomercials and inside physical businesses.

 

[Adam Block]

Well in AZ I saw signs at every park saying no firearms allowed but the fact of the matter was the laws of AZ said it was within your rights.

Not sure that's the same just saying you can't have a sign on your business saying "no xxxxrace allowed" and there are just some things you can't do. Jeff may be within the laws but if Bob called him and he refused her based on who she knows he may not be.

 

[HerpVenue]

Well in AZ I saw signs at every park saying no firearms allowed but the fact of the matter was the laws of AZ said it was within your rights

Tha law also states that you have to follow those posted sigs.
If an establishment posts a sign of no guns allowed.....then you decide to bring your gun.

You just broke the law.

You are talking to a concealed weapons permit holder. For both AZ and SC. (yes both have expired)

 

[DThomas]

Well in AZ I saw signs at every park saying no firearms allowed but the fact of the matter was the laws of AZ said it was within your rights.

No. In Arizona you are not allowed to carry a firearm where it is posted no firearms allowed.

Unless it can be proven that Savannah's account was denied/banned deliberately to prevent competition to Bob Clark, I don't see anything wrong, legally. It is generally accepted that businesses have the right to refuse service to whomever they choose.

 

[brucestephenson]

No Way, Dennis! Over the past 200 plus years, a strict set of legal guidelines has evolved which SEVERELY limits whom a business can refuse service to.

 

[Bob Clark]

Sanannah's KS Account

I will say again, I have no idea why, or even if, Savannah Sernas' account with Kingsnake.com was cancelled. I have been investigating Jeff Miller since his release from prison and the connection with Savannah has come to light during the process. I have nothing against Savannah herself only Miller.

Savannah actively pursued me with the dwarf Burmese with the help of my friend Julie. In my first conversation with Savannah directly I asked her if she knew Jeff Miller. She said she didn't know the name. She DID know that she didn't want ME to know about the relationship so she lied about it.

 

[W.Wedeking]

What prompted you to ask if she knew him?