Kingsnake Upped their price to post! Actually doubled it!

[HerpVenue]

I voted to pay for both sites.
Because the only problem I have with KS is a couple of the animal rights moderators....and the sometimes "choosy" way of enforcing the rules. Other wise the forums have "generaly" good people in them. The classifieds MOVE the animals. Now if the moderators were all against the reptile ban....and if they enforced the rules fairly accross the board....then for goodness sakes charge what you want. Actually it is his site...so he can charge what he wants. We may all cry about it...we may all not like it. I know I don't.......but in the end....after all the bickering and arguing...it is still his site. To do with as he pleases. If we do not like it...we do not have to go there. We can all support other sites. I know I have no money right now to help with this site...but I do give my time...since I am already here anyway. I also have given my time and offered my services to other sites and classifieds.

I admit that i was somewhat surprised when I read my Email from Kingsnake this afternoon.

Man I must suck....I did not get one. Oh well....that is what I get when I hit send before thinking.


Personally I started chuckling to myself when I read this thread. When you can make grown men cry......props to you.

 

[Adam Block]

You know, I just added a FC banner to the front page of my site and the links section. Now, it's true I only get about 500 hits a week but we should all try to bring as much new traffic here as we can. I suggest you all do the same and help support Rich!

Adam Block
www.4adam.com

 

[Fred Albury]

Times are hard, hard indeed

Haveing used both sites to sell snakes,I have found that the kingsnake site seemed to draw more hits. What does this mean though? If you look closer,out of those hits that were drawn on kingsnake, a good percentage of them were totally non serious people, ones that just wanted to see if they could get the price dropped down , make an unveven trade offer, or get something for nothing.

So.....it is basically the same.Neither site sold my snakes out right away as Adam said was his experience with K/S.

I will say that Josh hit the nail on the head. People leap at defending a business or person when really they need no defense at all. If they choose to do business that way you either deal with it, or abstain from advertising there. Period.Its not yours to make better and improve upon, it the owners, and if they dont want to make the changes that make people feel like staying, then thats their right. But defending thme is kind of a waste of time, as its just a choice they offer, their way or some other way.


Adam seems to have a change of heart,i wont applaud him and say that he matured somehow, thats just his choice. Just because I disagree with it, doesnt mean that he shouldnt be able to have that choice.


#1)What I am seeing is increased fees on kingsnake.com

#2)What I am seeing is a posting process that allows for
ads to be differentiated not on the creativity of the person posting them, but on their ability to"afford" certain tools with which to make their ads stand out from others, giving them an advantage that was predicated in being able to financially afford to pay extra for it.

#3) What i am seeing is a drastic increase in both user fees and structure for services that mirrored the old services.

#4) Lastly but not least, the peole most affected by these changes will be those that can least afford to have a kingsnake class acoutn in the first place. Brokers, jobbers, big breedes and giant retail establishments will gladly absorb the hit from this, as this is one of their major venues for "moveing" product. Neil gubitz clarified that earlier. The diffrence between Neil and i is like day and night, Neil sells perhaps 3005 more snakes than i do, and i have snakes n my collection that I have had for 14 years, have every feed and shed record since I got them and...more iportantly, I dont take snakes and resell them,I raise them up and BREED them. this takes time, usually aminimum of 4 years.



So who do you think is going to be more adversally affected by this increase in cost?
If you guessed me youd be right, as I produce alimitd number of true *quality* snakes and rarely if ever resell snakes that I havent produced , unlesss they are snakes I bought to keep and finances force me to sell them aftert takeing care of them for years.

So..now that you know who is goignt o be affected, you can now realize that in terms of good business sense I would modify what i do and turn toward brokering snakes, where the money is at COMPARED to breeding them. but im afraid I dont even have amodicum of business sense. Raising rates drastically is bad for people in general. whether it be electricity, rents or food.
Is it legal? Yes. Is it right? You make the call Can you stop it?No


I know one thing, to support and defend soemone doing it is wrong. If they want to do it, then they will. The conversation should really be about what we are going to do as individuals in the face of it, versus supporting and defending or tearing down what someone else does that we cant change.


What else can you say? This industry, it sickens me.


Fred Albury

Aztec Reptiles

 

[turtleman1]

kingsnake

fauna is without a doubt my 1st choice, i have had sales from here, not as many as from KS, but it does well, my lasy shipment was posted on KS , fauna & reptilian classifieds, about 75% of sales came from reptilian, it is the 1st time anyone has beat KS and it beat them 4 to 1, but fauna is my favoriote thanks rich
c. g. arnold
gene

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Without trying to sound like I am downplaying the 100% increase as nothing, let's take a look at the "impact" we are talking about.

$53 per year
$4.41 per month
$1.02 per week
$.15 per day

All this discussion about vendors changing the way they market their animals to "absorb the hit" is a bit much don't you think?

 

[dwedeking]

KS is a tool. That's it. Not a way of life. Evaluate whether it works for your business model and utilize it if it does.

The people that will decide if Jeff's decision was correct will be consumers like Cheryl (post on page 2 or 3). KS caters to the end user (small time hobbyist) and as such can dictate it's terms to the vendors on the site as long as it pulls the numbers. If he was wrong (I really believe this will discourage some of the small players, and the end users will decide if they like that or not) then his numbers will go down as more and more people will search out other classifieds. The reason KS works up to now is that everyone posted their ads on KS (for the most part) so there was no need for the end user to go any further (they would just see a re-hash of the same ads, usually cut and pasted so they even looked the same).

 

[Fred Albury]

Downplaying impact and why not to.....

Sunking,

The increase in the amount of $53.00 represents the mimimum service available. Imagine then, trying to compete with ads that have all the bells and whistles, highlighted in bright pink.
Now....that doesnt in any way say that the ad was worded better, or that he animals are better quality, just that INITIALLY, the public is going to be drawn or gravitate toward that and AWAY from anything you post, though they may come back later on. And....this extended, deluxe, service package isnt a mere $53.00 a year increase, it is instead $269.38. But has new increased features, which again will draw people to it.


Sunking,i think that you did try to downplay the cost issue, but what really is at stake isnt just the cost but the rapid increase in it and the competitiveness of the services offered. Hey, its business right?

I think that the smaller breeder, the person that produces 15-40 animals PER YEAR of the highest quality available, that person will be affected the most by this change in structure and pricing. They will have to weigh out for themselves if the products they sell merit the out lay of cash, and if with the new ad structure, they stand a real chance of being able to even sell their product in the face of other bigger vendors that have the deluxe packages that call even more attention to their ads. With a litany of other places to go to offer their snakes for sale, it really comes down to the individuals choice as to what they will do.

But to thinkthat it wont affect them is a mistake. I think that the larger and more financially succesfull breeders wil easily absorb the rate increase and welcome the chance to get the deluxe package so as to have an even more aggresive vehicle to push their product with. No loss there, can right it off anyway.



My comments, my opinion,



Take care guys,


Fred
Aztec Reptiles

 

[The BoidSmith]

I think that the smaller breeder, the person that produces 15-40 animals PER YEAR of the highest quality available, that person will be affected the most by this change in structure and pricing.

True. But the small breeder usually produces just a few clutches during certain time of the year (Maybe a 2-3 month span?).

As far as I understand (I'm not a user of KS) KS offers the 6-month option for the same amount of money as last year's. Most of the production of the small breeder will thus not be "taxed" by this increment. If he sells his animals during that window of opportunity he will be paying exactly the same as last year. Only when he wants to sell one of his breeders or hold-backs off-season will this raise affect him. Then again he can probably try to channel that particular sale through other sites.

In my opinion the new tariff is mostly aimed at large and diversified breeders (that sell year round'), brokers, etc. In short those that buy and sell for a living 365 days of the year. For them the increment means also very little as it is spread over more sales.

Best regards.

 

[Fred Albury]

6month package.....

True,they offer a 6month package, but again, you may have missed my point, that being that other advertisers will have the availability of a method of posting their animals, which cost them more, that will set their animals apart from the overall selection and cause buyers to go there first.
So if Joe W. needs to sell his only clutch of Albino boas, then he is going to, in that small 3 month windo, cmpete with ads that are designed to draw users to them, including users that buy albino boas.
End result: Loss of sales for Joe W.


Hey, Im not complaining so much as observing.When itcomes to this industry, not necessarily JUST kingsnake.com, but buyers and even a few bad brokers , theres an old saying that rings true:

"I used to be disgusted, but now I'm just amused"



Life goes on, heck we are about to embark upon war with another country, and that means American casualties. This crap is small potatoes.


Fred

Aztec Reptiles

 

[HerpVenue]

I hope that the people who voted definately no would come back and give us input. If some of you are already here...then great more props to you. Thanks for helping. But to the others who are not....the way I see it, it is basically complaining but not having the ummpph to do anything about it.

If you voted no. Tell us why or why not. Tell us what we can do to improve or what not. But do not tell us here. Tell us on the "discussions about this site" section

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

I would like to start that I dislike the double increase in prices for accounts on KS. Does this mean I will not use them? No I am sorry but I get about 70+% of my online sales from the KS site. Everyone has to increase prices from time to time to cover expenses and this is supposedly what Jeff is doing.
I think the new ability to only have an account for a short period of time is a great benefit to those who do not sell animals year round.
As far as the new extra system, it is no different than doing a Reptile show. If you want to put on a good display, you purchase a nice banner, Nice table cloths, and make yourself, your employees, and your buisness look as nice as you can. This new service is just like that. Not everyone will buy the new service, but those that want to go that extra mile will. At the shows, Person A can have an animal for $35, and Person B can have the same exact animal for $45,If person A has a basic set up he will get sales but if Person B has gone the extra mile in his presentation he will get more sales. Remember, people like to purchase from a company that shows professionalism,cleanliness, and a good display.

 

[WebSlave]

Dang!

Vic's original message was apparently trying to drum up some support for this site, but after this thread turned into one big group hug with KS, it's making me think the best thing I could do is just pull the plug on this entire site and be done with it.

I do believe I made a fundamental error with this site. I had thought I would gear it more towards the professional segment of our industry. However, as has been driven home to me this last couple of days, these people think with their wallets, and this site does not provide enough of a return on their dollars for them to put much effort into supporting it. So that means either I have to change the direction, or deep six it. From what I am hearing here and elsewhere, it is the traffic of the buyers that the people willing and able to pay the bills want the most. The BOI is not what will provide that, by a long shot. Nor are the classifieds to any real extent. It is the forums that bring the people in. Much more traffic will come from the "What should I name my iguana?" crowd, I believe.

Not that I think having copycat forums is going to make much difference at this late date, but perhaps I should consider giving it a shot. It will mean some major restructuring, however, and I may have to shut down the whole site for a day to do that.

I'll have to admit that this thread was a hell of an eye opener for me.

Heck, I should send Jeff a bill for all the good press this thread has given him. Almost makes ME want to open up a classified account on KS......

 

[HerpVenue]

It is not a group hug.

It more a ......what are you people doing posting on the BOI about other people's prices?

We can drum up support other ways.
Crying about prices on the BOI is not it.
We can cry about prices in the general buisness discussions. This thread was started because of high prices.

last time I checked a person can raise prices if they want.
I am all for argueing for the right. But what am I supposed to argue about here. High prices?

 

[dwedeking]

Webslave,

The two different (I stress different) websites target different demographics. If it is your purpose to generate a living with this site then yes you need to cater to the "What do I name my iguana crowd". If your purpose is out the scammers and provide a vehicle for honest trade in this industry then you are proceeding correctly. Those that see the benefit to a site like this will step up and assist when you need it.

Thread Here Of People Stepping Up

I subscribe to both Reptiles magazine and also read Pet Product News (a trade magazine). I would advertise in Reptiles but not necessarily in Pet Products News as it doesn't reach my customers. This makes the second mag no less important in running my business.

I wouldn't pay for posting ads in the classifieds on this site based on return but would as a way to support this site.

 

[Adam Block]

Jeff did something I too would have done had I been in his shoes. He cut the fat off of his business. If he can double his prices and only loose 1/3 of his customers then he did well and I assume that is what will happen.

Now here is the key! Who's going to be the first to capitalize on that 1/3? Somebody is going to pick them up so who's going to make the changes needed in time?

Rich, I use to play this online game from time to time. When I did I was always one of the top 10 players out of 2500+ people. The reason was, to do well you had to take the right risks at the right time. I'm sure it's clear I'm not a play it safe 401k and IRA kinda guy. With that it's just about what you want out of this site and what risks you're willing to take.

I would either keep your site as it is and continue to provide the herp comunity with a service or I would grow it. If you want to grow it I think free things are the keys. Free caresheets, forums, classifieds, boi, DIY projects and maybe a few other "nobody else does or has this" kind of things along the same lines as the boi. Anything from a live chat room to well, whatever. The point is free brings traffic and you need more of that then you currently have to start making money off the site. 12 months of free bells and wistles and you'll have the traffic you need to start charging a small fee and not loose business but continue to grow. You have enough traffic for banner ads but not enough to charge for the other things.

I had a hard enough time giving Jeff that $54 but I can see why people would choose to.

What I will say without even noticing the people that have the "dummy" accounts. When I looked at the ads the other day it was a joke to me! The people giving up the extra funds have ads that REALLY stand out! Stand out and say look at my dumb ass, I bet you know what I've paid to be covered in pink with my picture in lights. Way I see it, I wouldn't support one ad that was in pink. If they got enough more for that silly junk they sure as heck don't need mine as bad as the guys above and below them!

Adam Block

 

[HerpVenue]

As for where I am.
I am not always made out of money. In fact I was surprised to have the money to get an account at KS. But I still want my add to differ from the adds of ummm Jesse Underhill's of the world.
So I would think charging a little extra to make special adds would be good. These adds can stay on top. They would not be sinking to the bottom of the page with the Underhill add's.
Now, If crooked people did not exist...then I would not mind my adds falling to the bottom with the others.

am I making sense? don't know if I got my point accross.
shoot what was my point to begin with....I think I need mroe sleep

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

My gut feeling is that less than 10% of Jeff's clientele will opt for the premium service. There just isn't enough extra there to justify the cost. By the way...I have never taken advantage of the current system's ability to customize ads and use html to fancy up my postings. A well worded, gramatically correct ad that presents the info on the animal properly along with good pics of the animals is what the majority of the BUYERS are attracted to. Notice I stress the word BUYERS. My sales have always been excellent with basic ads. Sure, the lookers and dreamers might be attracted to the flashy ads but they never seem to buy anything anyway.

One thing that has been missed is the ability on both levels to post a link to your website. That is, in my opinion, the most important feature of all. That is what brings in repeat business from the individual ads.

That said, I will echo the other statements of support for this site. It provides an invaluable, though different, service as well. I would have no problem paying an annual fee simply to have direct access to the BOI. On two different occasions, I have probably been saved from getting screwed on internet deals because of the info I have found here. Likewise, I have consumated a couple of deals I might have passed on due to good feedback that was available here.

 

[HerpVenue]

It provides an invaluable, though different, service as well. I would have no problem paying an annual fee simply to have direct access to the BOI.

I never thought about htat before. That is a good idea

 

[Adam Block]

I'll repost this here:

Rich, I will start by saying you're a better man then I am. I honestly can't handle the BS as well as you have and I would shut this site down. From my point of view this is where I see the score card.

1) Jeff can slam you and nobody will back you up, as seen over the last two weeks.
2) Yeah Rich you have a great site and I love it as long as it doesn't cost me anything!
3) I would rather give Jeff $107 a year then sell here for free.

That's how I would take the last two weeks of posts if I were you.

I would resond with one of two things:

1) F-that, I'll make a site that's amazing and get all the business.
2) F-that, go use Jeff's site and have fun because I'm dropping this down to just the BOI from here on out, adios.

I can see reasons to do either although I of course hope you go with the first. I got a little burned out and had a negitive post about me months ago. The conclusion after 5 years of not one bad post in here about me after 500+ transactions and not one person came to bat for me before I saw the thread was to close up shop. I saw that as either a slap in the face or whatever but seeing as I was burned out and slipping I just decided to stop breeding like I was.

What you can do to better this site:

1) Forums
2) Keep it free for the time
3) Hosting
4) Find a site designer to work on a % and build sites for people
5) Choices, offer something from the little guy wanting a $100 site up to the big dogs. Offer free hosting with a size limit and banner ads up to whatever needs somebody big will have. People like to choose!
6) Caresheets
7) DIY Section
8) Information
9) Forums
10) Naked women

Rich, you have us as tools. We all like you and are willing to help. Use that to build your site and grow. Increase traffic and build the great site you've started.

Also, I would do a banner exchange. Hear me out on this. Do a free exchange for the next six months to get the free traffic that visits my site and ritchies site but not yours. A banner exchange for free would get you a lot of exposier! Do some advertising and get pro-active promoting this site now.

Good luck and if you need ANYTHING you know you can count on me.

Adam Block

 

[WebSlave]

OK, sooner or later I am going to move this thread up into the administrative section under "Discussions about this site", effectively burying it. No one goes there it seems, but I think that is more appropriate for it's final resting place.

In the meantime I am going to be going over the possibility of a complete overhaul plan in my mind for this site. Probably some people won't like it. Matter of fact, I'm sure that will be the case.

Either that or it will remain 'as is' and I will disengage my time involvement with this whole thing quite a bit and spend my time in other more financially rewarding endeavors. I could have spent all day taking photos of animals to sell instead of trying to get that new server online for this site.

Right now it's a toss up as to which way I will bounce.

Seems to me that it would be rather foolish to continue on my current course when it is very obvious that the financial angle is topmost in most people's minds here. Sorry about being blind for so long to that fact.......