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    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

LLL Reptile - Unhappy

New York Worms- Rita Smith: Good Guy (Gal)

Here's her contact info:
Rita Smith
[email protected]
New York Worms
Your Feeder Insect Superstore!
http://www.nyworms.com

She was running a deal on KS for 2000 large supers for $33.00 shipped, I picked one up and was pleased. Will be ordering them from her from now on (unless I am slow to order and need bugs the next day, then I'll order from Fluker). I paid $31.50 for 1000 from Flukers delivered, $33.00 for 2000 delivered from NY Worms......much better price. The only thing is that they were shipped to me via DHL ground, fine for me being in CT as they were only one state away and arrived the day after they were shipped but might not work out so well for those on the left coast so check ahead to see how they will ship to you and decide if the risk is worth it.

Also, she only ships on Tuesday so factor that in when ordering. I know this is pretty standard policy for bug suppliers but if you need them overnighted and its Thursday keep it in mind. At least with Flukers if I order before 3pm EST they are at my house the next morning, I can always use them as a backup if my schedule won't work with a Tuesday shipping company.
 
DragonCharm said:
Here's her contact info:
Rita Smith
[email protected]
New York Worms
Your Feeder Insect Superstore!
http://www.nyworms.com

She was running a deal on KS for 2000 large supers for $33.00 shipped, I picked one up and was pleased. Will be ordering them from her from now on (unless I am slow to order and need bugs the next day, then I'll order from Fluker). I paid $31.50 for 1000 from Flukers delivered, $33.00 for 2000 delivered from NY Worms......much better price. The only thing is that they were shipped to me via DHL ground, fine for me being in CT as they were only one state away and arrived the day after they were shipped but might not work out so well for those on the left coast so check ahead to see how they will ship to you and decide if the risk is worth it.

Also, she only ships on Tuesday so factor that in when ordering. I know this is pretty standard policy for bug suppliers but if you need them overnighted and its Thursday keep it in mind. At least with Flukers if I order before 3pm EST they are at my house the next morning, I can always use them as a backup if my schedule won't work with a Tuesday shipping company.
Click to expand...

CRAP! I hit reply not new topic......DOH! Mods please delete.
 
Stephanie, maybe I'm a little

:>off_to<: here, but my first impression when I saw your thread starter post was two-fold. You mentioned something akin to not wanting to feed maggots (or whatever they are) to your prize leos, and that had me scratching my head wondering what the value was in waxworms shipped from LLL ? This might be an issue for others, but what nutritional or quality guarantee is there what-so-ever in those waxworms? My assumption is that they only received the minimum necessary to be alive so as to get your money, just as crickets in a petstore are usually only fed raw potatoes. I realize that it takes a minimum level of nutrition to get them to that stage, but only a minimum. At least with maggots, you have some ability to provide nutritional input. I would also tend to recommend only using bugs where you can have a role in gut-loading them prior to consumption by your leos, such as mealworms, appropriate-sized crickets, etc. I also realize that waxworms may only be an occasional thing, a "treat" maybe, and that the bulk of their nutrition comes from elsewhere, but I guess my position boils down to that the waxworms as you have them are of little positive nutritional consequence, possibly more bad than good, and not worth the trouble or expense. I have to give LLL credit for the extent of their replies, although maybe a refund or replacement should have been offered immediately. If someone with more knowledge than I about leos and waxworms wants to tell me that research indicates that they are worth the trouble as purchased, I won't argue! I am not getting into either!

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC
 
I have to give LLL credit for the extent of their replies, although maybe a refund or replacement should have been offered immediately.
Click to expand...

What kind of guarantee do you expect on feeder insects? Most companies provide a live arrival guarantee and that's it. I just don't see how you can expect a company to provide a refund on feeder insects a day or two after arrival. LLL did nothing wrong here and remained courteous throughout the transaction, what more can you expect from a company in this situation except to hand out free feeders as an advertising venture (but how long until that gets out and you have everyone who has a single wax worm die wanting a full refund/replacement).

I have to say, I've found some wonderful customers, vendors and friends in the online reptile industry. People that have shown understanding when things have gone wrong with transactions and turned the experience into something that is mutually beneficial for both parties. I've also found people that are extremely impatient, don't plan for things that can go wrong, and do not understand the issues that can happen with the mail order process.

Daniel Wedeking
Scales - Premium Exotic Reptiles
http://www.exoticlizards.com
 
Well, since you asked!
Originally posted be Dwedeking:
What kind of guarantee do you expect on feeder insects?
Click to expand...

Dan, I understand your point completely. I cannot say that I know whether or not you understand mine, that you quoted. Please note that I did not mention anything about a guarantee, but since you asked about a guarantee, the answer is that I don't expect any specific guarantee outside of live arrival. I do think it wise that LLL also has some policy regarding customer satisfaction, but that is for them to define, not for me to tell them what its parameters should be. In this case, offering the replacement may have been good business, as by their own emails, they could not explain the maggots. To replace the order has nothing to do with responsibility or guilt, its just a business decision. I have to commend LLL for giving what I thought was very good advice .... ie, you shouldn't worry about it. We can debate the merits of whether or not this thread has any business in the BOI, but here it is, with at least one other contributor saying that regardless of the merits of this thread, they don't care for LLL either. In my mind, LLL had no obligation to offer a replacement, but it might have been the wise thing to do! ;)
I hope that answers your question.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC
 
Jim,

Thank you for taking the time to post. I guess 1/2 way through my post it became more of a general business discussion rather than concerning this transaction in particular. At what point does going above and beyond in customer service become just giving stuff away with no expected return? If someone is going to post negatively about some errant insect larvae in their order of insect larvea, do you have a chance to "win over" that customer or would it just be hush money to keep it off a public forum.

Anyway, I think LLL handled this transaction in the proper manner, even if both parties were not 100% satisfied at the end of it.
 
Posted by Dwedeking:
Anyway, I think LLL handled this transaction in the proper manner, even if both parties were not 100% satisfied at the end of it.
Click to expand...


Dan, I agree completely, and for the sake of LLL, I could have taken more time earlier to be sure to not hint of dissatisfaction with their actions here. We both know the the old adage "the customer is always right" has it limitations. My own experience with LLL, although limited, has always been good. Again, my "surprise" was only in that, once taking the time to engage Stephanie in the e-mail exchange, they didn't make the offer, since at that point they've already made a time investment in addressing her worries beyond the profit they made on the deal. In my own bug dealings, as a customer, I buy over 25,000 adult crickets a week, and raise another 150,000 smaller ones myself. Its nothing to call my supplier with a concern that automaically gets me 2,000 free in my next order if there was any problem what-so-ever. Its a business decision on their part ..... I'm a big account and I don't complain much. Unfortunately for Stephanie, and not that LLL doesn't care, for they surely did as evidenced by their communications, but its a different ballgame.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC
 
These kinds of things happen in the summer months with feeder bugs.

As far as leaving waxies out at room temps, I do it everytime I order them, however I do not leave them in the cup, I dump them into a larger container (shoebox for instance), then pick out ALL the dead ones. I leave them at room temps (74ish) and mine are always fine for the entire week I have them. Now if they are left sitting in a small deli cup all crammed together for several days at room temp of course many of them will die, and attract "crap" flies, which lay eggs that hatch into maggots (eww).

Maybe if when you had contacted LLL, you had said, "Hey, all my waxies are dead and I only had them for 1 day etc., I would like a replacement, they may very well have sent out a replacemet. I buy my feeders from reptilefood.com now, and they have always arrived live (they are sent UPS Next Day Air). Now I have found a few spiders in the crickets before, which grosses me out, but I haven't had any real problems with their worms.

Grubco is another company I have ordered from in the past, and anytime there was any type of issue they always sent me replacements.

I guess what I am getting at is that I don't really think maggots appearing in your cup of waxworms merits a BOI post. Maggots happen sometimes, especially in the summer. Just gotta keep your bugs clean and it lessens the problem.
 
Jeez poor maggots getting a bad rap. What exactly do you think the difference is between maggots and waxies? Well lets see one is the larval stage on an insect and the other one is the larval stage of an insect. Granted the maggots had all the nutrition the waves had (since they ate them) and less of the fat but whats with the "EW" factor?

Anyways, Ive bought from LLL reptile it was fine. FYI anytime you are selling live anything stuff happens.
 
ok enough

Now as to my professional experience here (I am licensed exterminator in MI)(Gee get paid to eliminate what I keep at home)as well as sanitation manager for a major food producer.

As several have pointed out. A maggot is nothing but the laval stage of a fly. (Doesnt mean house fly or crap fly) just a fly. Your waxies are nothing but the laval stage of a beatle (not John, Paul, George and Ringo). The difference is the label that society has put on the term maggot. I would loose my job if confused flour beatles were in my plant, yet many feeder dealers will sell them too you......

The maggots or at least the eggs came with the waxies. Even in fly season, even in warm temps you would not see the larvae generate in 10 hours, no way. The 24 hours is from the time the egg is laid to produce at optimum conditions. So whoever supplied LLL has a fly problem contained by the refrigeration of the waxies. And yet I would say...take the freebie feeders and enjoy.

Oh just so we have no missunderstanding.....I dislike LLL
 
Are we getting off topic?

As others have said, it seems we're getting off topic with this thread. It's one thing to have a major loss of a large insect order that they didn't want to replace, but to lose out on $14 worth of waxworms and make a thread about it is kinda shady... In your first post, you said you got them "a week or so ago." Even if the flies didn't get in there yesterday, you've had them a week, and have assumingly been using them during that time. I would think it's also safe to assume they've been left out during that week, whether it was 5 minutes or 10 hours. So if you figure you've paid $14 (half of which should be called shipping), used them for a week and now have an issue that I thought LLL was reasonable in explaining, you're really not losing out on anything. I'm more irritated by the fuzzy worms and beetles that show up in my crickets than I would be of a "maggot," and the worms essentially do the same things to the crickets, but to call it a problem that needs fixing is sorta reaching or the stars. My waxworms never seem to last longer than a week anyways, and as Jim pointed out, there's no nutritional value in them, more would be found in a maggot or silkworm.
 
My 2 cents worth may save you more in the long run... stop buying from middlemen when it comes to your feeders! Buy from a grower and try to find a reliable one that is closer to you, not from someone 2000 miles away and in an entirely different ecosystem! Also, never purchase more than you will feed in 2 weeks unless you have the capabilities to maintain them. BTW, waxies tend to die off when you change their temperatures drastically (such as the 36 degrees or so in the fridge to the 73 room temp!)

Back to being more on topic: I don't have a problem with the value lost but when it's a week after receiving a "bug" shipment then you plain and simply don't have a leg to stand on.
 
Well Now

Back in the good old days when I ran my computer by candles because power wasnt available....My name and quote were automatic. Guess I need to work on the old User CP..


Anyway

Michael Heald
Dragondad
And lots of other reptiles now
 
Dragondad said:
Back in the good old days when I ran my computer by candles because power wasnt available....My name and quote were automatic. Guess I need to work on the old User CP..


Anyway

Michael Heald
Dragondad
And lots of other reptiles now
Click to expand...
Michael, I think automatic signatures are now limited to paid members. You can go to the CP and put in your full name and it will appear to the left of each post. That will satisfy the BOI requirement.
 
As I said

ok again way back when...i WAS a paid member.... nevermind.


For the $14 I dont think this is that big of deal. Too bad you threw them away since their entire nutrition structure was based on he food source you wanted to provide. Hey a crawler that the geckos, chams, dragons eat is just food. Forget what we in the house would call it... maggot, worm, slimer, them in the wild call it "FOOD". You think that a cham in the wild is going to turn down a "maggot" just because it came from s**t, or refuse??? Or the geckos dont just love a pile of maggots when the happen on them. Like I said in my original post, it is what society has pushed on the label not what they really are.


Michael Heald
 
Ok, I'm going to try to reply to a few of you...If I miss anyone...I do want to thank you for your contribution on this thread. I appreciate it when discussions are made in the manner most of this thread was...

montezuma --- My 2 cents worth may save you more in the long run... stop buying from middlemen when it comes to your feeders! Buy from a grower and try to find a reliable one that is closer to you, not from someone 2000 miles away and in an entirely different ecosystem! Also, never purchase more than you will feed in 2 weeks unless you have the capabilities to maintain them. BTW, waxies tend to die off when you change their temperatures drastically (such as the 36 degrees or so in the fridge to the 73 room temp!)
Click to expand...

I know better then to buy from a middleman. I guess I just wasn't thinking about what type of company LLL really was (not "bad guy" - but as you said, "middleman"). I saw an ad on Kingsnake.com and ordered.

I have a wonderful cricket supplier that automatically sends my supply every 2 weeks (www.qualitycrickets.com). ANY problem I have with my order...They'll take care of it. My very first order I had 1,000 1/4" crickets die on me for no apparant reason one week after I ordered. I didn't expect them to send me a new supply, I just wanted to know if maybe something I did caused the smalls to die and how to correct it...but they DID send me a replacement 1,000, without me asking. I wish they did worms!

I've never purchased this many waxies at one time, I knew though they would be fed off within two weeks though. Thanks for the information on the sharp temperature change. I hadn't thought of that! It would make sense then why I had a few die within that 10 hour period.

KelliH -- These kinds of things happen in the summer months with feeder bugs. As far as leaving waxies out at room temps, I do it everytime I order them, however I do not leave them in the cup, I dump them into a larger container (shoebox for instance), then pick out ALL the dead ones. I leave them at room temps (74ish) and mine are always fine for the entire week I have them. Now if they are left sitting in a small deli cup all crammed together for several days at room temp of course many of them will die, and attract "crap" flies, which lay eggs that hatch into maggots (eww).

I buy my feeders from reptilefood.com now, and they have always arrived live (they are sent UPS Next Day Air). Now I have found a few spiders in the crickets before, which grosses me out, but I haven't had any real problems with their worms. Grubco is another company I have ordered from in the past, and anytime there was any type of issue they always sent me replacements.
Click to expand...

See, that's what confuses me. I'm told that because I left the cup out for 1/2 day that's why I ended up with maggots. Then you say that you do leave you're waxies out for a week without a problem (and I've also had experience with this). I guess in the end no one will ever know exactly WHY they ended up in there (though I think the theory on eggs being laid during shipping is a logical one).

Also, thanks for the recommendations on the suppliers. I will have to test them out. What type of bedding/feed do you use for your waxies you keep?

Dragondad -- Your waxies are nothing but the laval stage of a beatle (not John, Paul, George and Ringo). The difference is the label that society has put on the term maggot. I would loose my job if confused flour beatles were in my plant, yet many feeder dealers will sell them too you......

The maggots or at least the eggs came with the waxies. Even in fly season, even in warm temps you would not see the larvae generate in 10 hours, no way. The 24 hours is from the time the egg is laid to produce at optimum conditions. So whoever supplied LLL has a fly problem contained by the refrigeration of the waxies.
Click to expand...

Waxies are the larval stage of a moth. :) Thank you for the additional information on fly cycles. I didn't think it could have happened here within that short amount of time!

I also have been informed that LLL is supplied by Tophat Cricket Farm.

BLUEBEASTREPTIL -- As others have said, it seems we're getting off topic with this thread. It's one thing to have a major loss of a large insect order that they didn't want to replace, but to lose out on $14 worth of waxworms and make a thread about it is kinda shady... In your first post, you said you got them "a week or so ago." Even if the flies didn't get in there yesterday, you've had them a week, and have assumingly been using them during that time. I would think it's also safe to assume they've been left out during that week, whether it was 5 minutes or 10 hours. So if you figure you've paid $14 (half of which should be called shipping), used them for a week and now have an issue that I thought LLL was reasonable in explaining, you're really not losing out on anything.
Click to expand...

As I've said from the beginning...I used about half of them the day I received them...Put them in the fridge...The other day I pulled them out, set them on a table in my reptile room...Forgot about them until I got home 10-12 hours later...Then SURPRISE...MAGGOTS! I could have purchased from a local store, paid $4 for a tub of 50 and used them up rather quickly. I understand that accidents happen...but LLL is saying "I'm not sure what they are...but I'm sure they'll be safe" when they really don't know. They're insisting that their supplier couldn't possibly have infested waxworms...When they really don't know...I don't know...Maybe I'm reading into LLL statements too much.
 
Should this post even be on the BOI? The way I see it is as follows:

1) The worms were not kept to specifications. They were left out all day instead of being in the fridge. Is that LLL's fault that you didn't follow proper housing procedures?

2) You are accusing LLL of selling you a defective produce when there is a good chance the maggots were a result of a fly in your house laying eggs in the worm container that should have been in the fridge to begin with.

3) LLL seems very nice in there emails back to you so you it's not like you are complaining about their customer service.

4) You are out $7 in worms.......which again were most likely a result of them not being in the fridge all day.

I personally don't see a problem here. If anything LLL should be complaining that a customer of theres didn't keep the worms properly, lost $7 of them and then has a fit on the BOI accusing them of being in the wrong. Hopefully this was worth $7 for you.

Regards,
Corey
 
Corey - please read the post by Dragonsdad. He did confirm that the egg laying in the waxworms could not happen here. It was either at the facility that supplied them, or via shipment. Also, their really is not right or wrong about how to keep waxworms (unless you go drastic and put them in your freezer or stove *lol*). Their are posts even on this thread that state keeping them at room temperature for a week or so causes no ill effects (outside a few dead). Also, where did I "throw a fit." I believe I was completely professional and courteous when I replied to individuals on this thread.
 
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