LLL Reptile - Unhappy

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I ordered a batch of 250 waxworms from LLL Reptile a week or so ago. The little guys seemed fine 07-26 morning; I pulled them out for a 2nd feed for my Leos and forgot to put them back in the fridge. When I got home at about 10:30pm I had a thought to treat my Tokays. I opened the lid and their were these little white worms at the bottom of the tub. I was like ok...These are either baby waxworms that happened to hatch or they're maggots. I emailed LLL Reptile inquiring on what they might be...

LLL Reptile reply ---

Unfortunately without seeing them in person, I cant tell you for sure. The best thing I can tell you is that they are harmless if they are either one. If you are storing them in your fridge, chances are they are small waxworms, but I cant say for sure Should be harmless.

So, I sent a picture (attached at bottom) of what I was seeing...At this point, I was extremely concerned...

My reply ---

If they're maggots, that's not OK. I'm really thinking they ARE maggots now, because they're eating a dead waxworm that's in the tub. Is this how all your waxworms come? Infested? I just threw out 1/2 my container of 250 because I am not feeding my healthy animals infested prey.

LLL reply ---

Where are you keeping the container of waxworms? Are they kept in the fridge, or at room temperature? Let me know.

My reply ---

The container they came in. I keep them in the fridge when I don't need them. I took them out yesterday morning, I found the maggots last night (they'd been out at room temperature all day). I've never had any problems with waxworms before...Usually though I'd pick a small amount up at a local pet store.

LLL reply ---

I have never had a bug issue or a complaint about them. Maggots cant live at that cold of temp though to my knowledge. So unless you had some die off, and maggots attacked them, I would guess something else. What I would tell you though, regardless of where they came from, is as disgusting as maggots are, people feed them to many, many reptiles. I dont think that they came from our supplier, but I wont say for sure obviously, anything is possible. However, they will not, in any way, harm a lizard Hope that helps a bit. I would always store them in the fridge though, and take only what you need out of the container to feed. That is what I do with mine. Good luck

Does anyone see what's wrong with this statement??? He's telling me "regardless of where they came from, is as disgusting as maggots are, people feed them to many, many reptiles. However, they will not, in any way, harm a lizard."

I didn't order WAXWORMS with a side of MAGGOTS for my prize leos!

I've pretty much thrown my hands up in the air in frustration and checked them on the list of never ordering from them again. I'm out about $7 of waxworms, but what can I do?

 

[hhmoore]

they sure look like maggots to me. As far as what to do - (ASSuming you don't want to feed them to anything) you can pick out the waxworms, or not - your choice, then seal the whole container, and drop it in a convenient garbage can...like at a gas station, supermarket, or fastfood place. It's too bad that your container is wasted/contaminated, but tis the season for such things. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't say that LLL is responsible.

 

[KelliH]

That's really gross. Looks like there are several dead waxworms in the cup. When I get waxworms I dump the cup out into a larger rubbermaid container and keep them at regular room temps. I always make sure to pick out (with tongs!) any dead waxworms, otherwise they attract what I like to call crap flies (only I replace the word crap with another word that starts with the letter S), and in turn you get maggots. Pretty nasty.

Were there a lot of dead waxies in the cup when you received them?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

That's the thing. Their was one dead waxworm in the morning...When I came home at night (10:30ish) their were a ton more. The ones on the right were nothing but the outer shell...Like the maggots ate them out. But how could this happen in 12 hours of this tub being exposed to a room if it happened here???

 

[pch101]

They are maggots, and if you are leaving these guys out all day, you can expect them (especially if you have some dead waxworms in the container as you did. I do not know exactly what type of maggot they are or the exact type of fly that produced them, but I do know that flys have a very short lifespan, and reproductive cycle. This may not have happened before if the weather was cooler, but it is hot through most of the country, and flys are just dying to get in the house and then of course find a suitable place to lay their eggs before they die. I can't think of a better place than a little pile of dead waxworms. To a fly a dead waxworm is like ready made baby food just waiting for the baby maggots to hatch and dig in. Umm umm, now that's good eatin! LLL gave you good advice. The maggots are harmless if eaten, and you should avoid leaving the worms out at room temp for any real amount of time.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I don't think you're reading what I've written fully...

They're kept in the fridge when I'm not feeding...That morning I left them out from 11ish to 10:30ish...

Their was ONE dead waxworm in that cup when I left in the morning...

My house is kept around 73 degrees...Hardly hot...

I highly doubt the life cycle from laying to hatching for flies is within 10 hours...I will ask my brother though; he's an entomologist and should be able to shed some light on the question...

Also, in the three years I've been useing waxworms...I have NEVER had this happen no matter what the temperatures...This is the first batch I've actually kept in the fridge because of how many I had purchased.

 

[ravensgait]

How much did these worms cost? Just interested to know as I'm not a lizard person and have never bought any.

I guess you seem to think that they sent you the maggots which I suppose is possible. So what do you want them to do about this???

I'm no fly expert but one morning last week I put a frozen Emerald out on an ant mound for them to clean. Had to be around 8 in the morning when I put it frozen solid on the mound. Checked on it that evening and the ants were hard at work but there were also little maggots already crawling around in it. So I think it would be hard to say for sure where the ones you have came from. Randy

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

LLL had them at $14/shipped for the 250. I lost about half (and "lost" I mean I took the container...maggots, waxies and all...put them in a bag, dumped bleach in...Tied it up and threw it in the garbage).

I just did a total scrub down of the reptile room too. I'm really grossed out by this.

I don't think they sent me maggots...I think their were eggs in their that hatched once they were warmed up from sitting out for a few hours. They do not produce them either...They get them from a supplier elsewhere (whom probably ships directly to LLL customers). I let them know my concerns about the quality and infestation...

I'm also extremely upset that he's giving me the the advice to feed the maggot infested waxies to my Leos!

 

[loteer]

I am not a fly or maggot expert but i would not think that feeding a maggot to a lizard would be harmfull considering some people eat maggots. I even watched a show on food network ounce where they were visiting someone that included insects in their regular diet, they made a salad dressing of sorts using a blender and a whole bunch of maggots. Apparently, they all thought it was great but YUCK!!! lol

 

[Jim O]

I'm also extremely upset that he's giving me the the advice to feed the maggot infested waxies to my Leos!

I can understand your frustration but this is mainly an emotional response. One of three things will happen if any maggots get in with your lizards. Either they will be eaten, they will die, or they will turn into small flies. None of those is really awful. As James pointed out, it is fly season.

One other point I would make is that waxworms, mealworms, superworms and the like are all insect larvae. Maggots are...insect larvae. Insectivorous lizards will eat them if they find them appealing.

As for how the eggs might have gotten in with them, that could have happened when the worms were being placed from a large container into a smaller one. I imagine whoever shipped them did many at one time, not just yours. The containers may have been out and open for an hour or two and that would have been more than long enough. They were warm in shipping for a day or two, then matured and hatched out when you left the worms out for half a day.

To avoid them, follow Kelli's advice.

 

[DragonCharm]

According to what I found fly eggs should hatch in approx 24 hrs, depending on the temps I can see that number varying some and maybe 10 hrs is enough time. Keep in mind 24 hrs might be the time at 60 degrees and at 75 it's half the time......who really knows. I think the maggots were caused by leaving it on the counter, no one will ever know for sure. Bottom line though as we've already known, LLL cares about nothing but money......it's just their nature.

 

[critical bill]

I don't think you're reading what I've written fully...

Check it out....we know how to read. And we know how to read the signs of a fruit cake hobbyist with nothing but time on their hands to start a lame ass thread like this.

Their was ONE dead waxworm in that cup when I left in the morning...

Sure, because thats the first thing I do before I leave my house for the day. I count every insect to see if any are dead. Did you name all 250 of them?

I would have billed you for the free larvae.

 

[Crested Lady]

I've dealt with LLLReptile at a number of reptile shows and have never had a problem with how they conduct their business. They've always been quick to answer any questions I have, and I've always been very satisfied with their products.

Being a gecko breeder, I've bought my fair share of feeder insects. One thing I know is that you don't leave your waxworms out at room temperature any longer than it takes to grab your worms, and put them in the dish. You also have to be very careful to remove any kind of dead insects (whether they're crickets, waxworms, mealworms, etc.) immediately or else you're going to muck up your colony. I realize that it can be easy to forget about putting the worms back in the fridge, however I do not feel that LLLReptile should be responsible for what you failed to do.

I'm sorry that you lost alot of worms and had to deal with maggots (I know the sight of them is vomit-inducing)...however, I believe that this should be viewed as a learning experience, not as a bad deal with a business that was willing to take the time to promptly answer your questions and offer their advice.

 

[pch101]

Oh boy, here we go.

"I don't think you're reading what I've written fully..."

You should not presume things, and that is what you are doing with me and with this complaint. I DID read your post (twice), and I comprehended its meaning. Now, it is you that I dare say is not reading what I have written to you.

"They're kept in the fridge when I'm not feeding...That morning I left them out from 11ish to 10:30ish..."

10 hours is equal to about 25 to 75 years to a fly (depending on the species). Ravensgait's example illustrated this perfectly. He had a snake go from being frozen solid snake to a maggot infested snake in approximately the same time frame.

"Their was ONE dead waxworm in that cup when I left in the morning..."

In my experience waxworms start to die off pretty fast when left out at room temp in their little container.

"My house is kept around 73 degrees...Hardly hot..."

Well, at least Jim O figured out what I was trying to tell you. It is fly season. Flies are abundant in the summer, and they want in the house when it is hot out side. When you were a kid didn't your mom ever yell at you to "shut the door, you are letting all the flies in"? So you see, the files are very common this time of year, and your 73 degree home is like a tropical paradise with an all you eat free buffet for their young ones to munch on when they hatch.

"I highly doubt the life cycle from laying to hatching for flies is within 10 hours..."

Well you can doubt, but it does not change the facts. Ravensgait's response demonstrates that.

"I will ask my brother though; he's an entomologist and should be able to shed some light on the question..."

That would have been a good move before posting this. Show him the pic so he can try to get an idea as to the type of maggots you are dealing with.

"Also, in the three years I've been using waxworms...I have NEVER had this happen no matter what the temperatures...This is the first batch I've actually kept in the fridge because of how many I had purchased."

Its fly season, and it only takes one....

Let me say I am NOT a big fan of LLL, in fact I do not like them at all. That being said, I do not feel this is a fair complaint to raise against them. Did you inform them that you were coming here with this? I personally think you are displaying an irrational emotional response in regard to your fear and disgust of maggots. I too am freaked out by them, but I would still try to be logical about the situation. If you received a container full of maggots and dead waxworms then you would have a real gripe. LLL cannot be responsible for what happens once you have taken possession of them. If they sent you a container of live waxworms, then they have fulfilled their obligation.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Ok, I'm going to post the last emails between LLL and I; and then reply to all of you. This might be a little long, my apologies ahead of time...

LLL Reptile ---

Funny, I was polite, answered all of your questions honestly, as best I could. We hadnt even discussed if it was necessary to replace the worms for you, although I dont think that was necessary considering the circumstances. And someone emailed me this morning telling me about your post on fauna. What a disappointment. Even the people at the board know that A: It isnt our fault. B: I gave you good advice. C: My emails were totally nice to you. I am really curious. What made you do that? Do you really think that was necessary? I think you honestly should post an apology, but I dont see that happening. The post itself isnt that big of deal, just the fact that you choose to handle it like that. Just disappointing to see, when there is just no reason for that. That board should be a last resort for people who have a real complaint. Not about worms that were left at room temp and went bad. Even you said that they were fine the first day. I am really curious, if you dont mind, tell me what made you think that was the right idea, or even necessary to do?

Me ---

At this point with the BOI...It seems any post is negative...I DID NOT write "LLL Reptile - BAD GUY"; now did I? I wrote that I was UNHAPPY because I am. I also wrote that these waxies do not come from you, but a supplier (whom probably ship directly to the customer). I have NEVER had this happen before. In 3 years of using waxies, NEVER had this happened. Usually I pick up 50 counts...Which I do not refrigerate because they're gone in a week. Also, I worked for a pet store for a year a while back, we NEVER refrigerated our waxies...They sit on top of a fridge in our hot back room for at least 3 weeks...No maggots...The little buggers did turn into moths though. I have 4,000 crickets running around in 2 58.6 L tubs that get refreshed every 2 weeks...No maggots in their either. I'm sorry, but I will not be buying from LLL Reptile again. I'm not sure who your supplier is, I don't really think you'd give me that information...and that's ok! I do not want feeders from that supplier. I think I might go back to just getting 50 counts at a higher price at a local store. Though I really don't think you should be going around recommending to customers that feeding maggot infested prey is ok. That's really disgusting. I may be totally grossed out and some posts on the BOI may believe otherwise (which I'm sure there's truth in the posts)...But I really wouldn't recommend it. Flies can carry disease. Blek!

Jim O - you are correct about them being exposed at shipping. They were packed in a cricket box without the screening, which would allow flies access. If they were a relatively small fly, they could get into the holes in the container. I hadn't thought of that. Their were a few dead waxworms (I'm talking 2 or 3) in the container upon arrival. I did remove them prior to placing them in my fridge. I find that a very logical explanation. Screening or not, I'm sure a fruit fly could have gotten in anyway.

DragonCharm - Thank you for the information on the fly cycles. I figured it would be around 24 hours. I'm still going to give my brother a ring about it to see what he thinks.

CriticalBill - What exactly was your point in posting? I think I've read a lot of threads where you personally attack individuals and/or companies. I'm sure in a lot of cases you have every right to. The statement "fruit cake hobbyist with nothing but time on their hands to start a lame ass thread like this" was a personal attack that I did not deserve. Do you know me? Do I post on the BOI every other day with silly accusations? Nope, I don't think you know me; nor do I post every other day on the BOI. I really don't know what your problem is, but I think you need to refrain from posting if you can't play nice (I do understand though that "playing nice" isn't always possible). I am not going to get into a MB battle with you. I will call bull**** as bull**** though.

pch101 - I have not stated once in this thread that LLL are "bad guys." I wanted to share my experience and concerns with their product and advice. Possibly, to avoid the personal attacks, I could have posted on the Leo forum here or elsewhere. I didn't, so here the thread must remain. Does fly season happen every year? Or is this year unusually bad for them. I'm honestly not being a smartass about it, I noticed the june beetles are AWFUL this year. If "fly season" was every summer...Wouldn't, logically, I have had problems the previous two summers seeing that I would keep my 50 count waxies at room temperature?

Well, that's all for now, folks! I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread.

 

[critical bill]

CriticalBill - What exactly was your point in posting?

Self satisfaction in basically calling you a fool. Youre well on your way to dumbass though.

I think I've read a lot of threads where you personally attack individuals and/or companies.

Only the bad guys my dear, but even the bad ones get a pass sometimes when they realize thier mistakes early on and cooperate.

I'm sure in a lot of cases you have every right to.

I've been wrong quite a few times so dont be so sure. And when found wrong I will alwatys apologize with the same enthusiasm I did while insulting.

The statement "fruit cake hobbyist with nothing but time on their hands to start a lame ass thread like this" was a personal attack that I did not deserve.

I think you did deserve it. And seeing your last email correspondence with LLL has me quite assured that you did indeed deserve what I wote.

Do you know me?

Do I need to? Other than this lame ass post by you over $14.50...about some free extra bugs you received...do you think I'd want to get to know you?

Anyway.....Congratulations nut job! You hatched and raised maggots! Do the right thing....count them out and send the aditional money you owe LLL for hooking you up.

 

[pch101]

"Anyway.....Congratulations nut job! You hatched and raised maggots! Do the right thing....count them out and send the aditional money you owe LLL for hooking you up."

I really do not want to encourage you here, but Darn it Chuck, you are killing me, and I can't argue with your logic.

 

[DavidBeard]

Am I the only one who thinks this topic may be a bit unsuitable for the BOI? You lost $7 in worms for crying out loud....it sounds like LL tried to handle the situation, but you for whatever reason decided to make a big fuss out of some freaking worms? I'd understand if you bought a huge amount and they all arrived dead or they caused one of your animals to choke because they didn't like the taste of maggots or something like that but JEEZ....I for one think this thread is a waste of bandwidth.

 

[critical bill]

Its cool you left me negative feedback for calling you a nut case, Stephanie. I left you a positive so you'll have something to work with. When I left it for you I felt like I did a very good deed. Like helping a blind person cross a busy intersection. No need to thank me though....next time I'll leave you dead smack in the middle of it.

BUT WAIT....

OH MY GOD...

IT MIGHT BE HAPPENING TO ME!!! I JUST SAW A FRUIT FLY HOVERING SOME FRESH BANANAS I BOUGHT YESTERDAY. SHOULD I CALL SHOPRITE AND COMPLAIN TO THE PRODUCE MANAGER? HOW DARE HE GIVE ME FRUIT FLIES WITH MY FRUIT.

YOU JACKASS.

 

[Jungle Gems]

Personal Experience with LLL Reptile and Supply

Dan and I have ordered thousands of feeders (insects and rodents) from LLL and have never had an issue. One time, DHL made an "attempted delivery" (we were here all day, mind you... typical DHL) and the bugs came in a day late but with no more casualties than you'd expect if they had gotten here on time. We're more than satisfied with our service from LLL. They are even courteous enough to call if their supplier is out of what we ordered, unlike some other insect suppliers who will gladly send out an order only half-filled. Unless we encounter significant problems with LLL in the future, we will continue to purchase our supply of feeders from them. (Now, if I could just convince them to throw in a few hundred extra feeders into our next order...)

Jennifer Webb
Jungle Gems Exotics
www.JungleGemsExotics.com