Luis Taracena (herphobbiest) bad deal

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Mike,
I just got back from doing some Google reading myself. Indications are that salmonella can withstand normal freezing, as you indicate. There's always "ifs and buts", but its a tougher organism than I thought. When I saw the words of "Dr. Johnson", my first reaction was that somebody was pulling my Johnson. I will post any analysis that I get from my vet if and when. Still have my teeth.

 

[HerpHobbiest]

Why are you sending the results to another vet? So you can prolong this matter for a while longer?

No Tom,

I am sending the results to a Reptile Veterinarian so that he can explain in plain english what does the scientific terms in the necropsy really mean.

And also so none of us try and play snake doctor wanna be.

Just a couple more thoughts. MD's and Vet's are usually very specific and accurate about the words they use. Not a whole lot of "slang" or laziness in word choice. Also, if this was from a frozen snake, wasn't it frozen for weeks? And lest anyone never have tested, most freezers chill to about 19 degree F or colder. Most organisms have to be sub 25 degrees minimum to feeze solid, so we're not talking about 31 degree slush here. If I have a kick in the teeth coming on this, kick away. Something stinks in Denmark to me.

Jim,

What I posted was not the actual necropsy results. That was just an e-mail from Dr Johnson. The Report is being mail out to me. I too, expect the Full Report to be very specific and completely technical. That is why I am having a Well known Reptile Vet look at it and explain it even further and in plain English. So that all of us can understand what the report says. I trust the professionals to do their job right!!!

I am off to bed. Regards, Luis T.

PS. Neil, The snake probably got Salmonella back in 1997 from those chicken tacos it ate while visiting Puerto Peñasco. Lets wait for the Report... Shall we? Luis

 

[Chameleon Company]

Don't know that this will clear up anything.

I didn't spend a great deal of time on Google looking at the salmonella and freezing issue. What I did read about it mostly pertained to its ability to survive in frozen ice cream. I got this from a vet this morning, and it renews my doubts about necropsies on frozen snakes with regard to bacteria.

Culturing must be done on a fresh speciimen that died recently. After a few hours post death all kinds of organisms can grow. Freezing is ok for viral isolation sometimes or other organisms that produce inclusion bodies or eggs that can't die from freezing. However, bacteria will die if the animal is
frozen and Salmonella is a common inhabitant of reptiles even if it is not
causing disease. So a frozen culture not only should reveal false results
and can't be trusted, it really shouldn't reveal much of anything.

I think that no matter how you look at it, post-freezing necropsies may not be definitive under many circumstances. Good luck.

 

[Junkyard]

As I stated before, the culture is what I was curious about as it really would not show much evidence in the death of the animal. Fresh tissue is pretty much the only way to make sure the results are accurate. Looking under a microscope would be difficult because the cells in the frozen tissue rupture when defrosted. I have yet to find a case were salmonella has been the cause of death in a snake/reptiles. There are products out there made to clean salmonella out of a reptile's body, like NutriBac. If anyone has ever experienced salmonella poisoning, they will know that is it something that happens very quickly that can last from 2 days to 2 weeks. Being that there is normally salmonella in the snakes body that does not just include the intestines, but also the liver, saying it died from salmonella seems inconclusive.

Though I will withhold other comments until after the necropsy results are posted in this thread in it's entirety.

 

[esoteric-lizard]

I trust the professionals to do their job right!!!

maybe then Luis Taracena, you should follow their example of conducting business!

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Ya know guys, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.... With all the inconsistencies in Luis' "stories", and with the snake being FROZEN.... It makes no difference at all what the Vet report says (to me)....

Rick, as nice of a guy as you seem to be, the ONLY problem now, Rick, lies between YOUR EARS and this "peer-pressured morals clause" you THINK you have to follow!!.... You've got your snake back, you've got Matt's Balls.... SOLUTION.... Send Matt his Ball's back, do whatever you want with the babies produced by your snake, AND BE DONE WITH THIS!!.... Personally, as I said before, I wouldn't give Luis a THING, but if YOU want to, Rick, (for whatever reason allows you to sleep at night), knock your socks off.... but THIS fiasco should be over with already....

Neil

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

I assure you Neil, I do not succumb to peer pressure that easily. LOL The decisions that I make are based on what My conscience dictated to Me, and very little to do with others opinions of Me. Just ask those who know Me. LOL Though I may agree with much of what you have had to say, it has very little sway in My ultimate decision.

At any rate. Though Salmonella may be a/the cause of death, we still seem to be lacking time frames, and other facts. Too many unknown things to concider. Like, even the rats we feed our snakes can cause them to get salmonella. Luis fed it twice. Salmonela usually manifests itself within 48 hours of contamination, (for humans). What about reptiles that carry it and remain Asymptomatic? Seems like something would have to happen to "cause" the bacterium to manifest itself in such quantity as to actually kill the snake.
The freezing thing. Just because that's all the vet found, does not mean that there were not other "undetectable due to freezing" organisms involved. Just means they only found Salmonella.

Still much to know and concider if I am to make an unbiased decision. IMHO that is.

Rick

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Rick (or should I say, "Mr. Integrity".... lol),

OK, I understand your point (I have all along), but since there will NEVER be any conclusive evidence as to what killed that snake, you should ABSOLUTELY just send Matt his snakes.... After that, you can make any decision you want to with YOUR animals, but Matt's Balls (lol) SHOULD be returned to him.... Don't you think??....

Neil

 

[Bill_Leverton]

Ya know guys, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.... With all the inconsistencies in Luis' "stories", and with the snake being FROZEN.... It makes no difference at all what the Vet report says (to me)....
Rick, as nice of a guy as you seem to be, the ONLY problem now, Rick, lies between YOUR EARS and this "peer-pressured morals clause" you THINK you have to follow!!.... You've got your snake back, you've got Matt's Balls.... SOLUTION.... Send Matt his Ball's back, do whatever you want with the babies produced by your snake, AND BE DONE WITH THIS!!.... Personally, as I said before, I wouldn't give Luis a THING, but if YOU want to, Rick, (for whatever reason allows you to sleep at night), knock your socks off.... but THIS fiasco should be over with already....
Neil

Neil I couldn't agree more, This should just of ended as of break of dawn this morning, Matt should get his snakes on the first flight Monday the 17th. why should it be Rick responsibility to keep these fed while Luis yanks their chains with the excuses on how this snake died. at this point Who in the pit of Hades cares any more. Matt should get his......Rick got his......and Luis I'm sure in the future you will get yours .......Lets Just put this Nightmare away and let everybody get on to the next piece of Luis oops I mean turd.

 

[Chameleon Company]

We all know that an asymptomatic snake can be overcome by any of a number of pathogenic organisms if its husbandry becomes poor, or some other debilitating factor joins the mix, sometimes with the organisms showing as symptomatic within a matter of a couple of weeks, give or take. I also know from personal experience in statistically significant numbers that an otherwise healthy animal can be "dosed" with large numbers of a pathogenic organism, such as salmonella or pseudomonas and others, such that the affected animal can become symptomatic in less than a week. It takes a good dose of contamination, but once delivered, it can bring down the healthiest of animals quickly. It only adds to the belief that a bacterial cause in this case, or any other especially involving a frozen animal, will not be conclusive as to assessing blame, particularly where the animal had changed hands while alive in the months prior to its demise.

 

[liquidleaf]

Right, it doesn't matter how much bacteria shows up on the necropsy, because the snake had been in Luis' care for enough time for poor husbandry (if that was the case) to affect it. Only if the snake had a pre-existing DEFINITELY identifiable disease or fatal flaw (organ defect, cancer etc) should Luis get the ball pythons back. Like others have pointed out, no one knows how long the snake was laying dead in its cage (a few hours overnight could have allowed all sorts of bacteria to grow). It will be very interesting to see what the necropsy report (and the vet explanation of the report) reveal.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

How 'bout that necropsy report Luis? You said 7-10 "business days", it is now day 11. And to be frank, I am getting tired of holding Matt's Balls. (LOL) In reality, they would have been in His possesion by now. Shipping was supposed to take place months ago.

We have met your own quoted time lines, and now it would seem that I should just send Matt his balls and be done with it. You have offered nothing but an email that states Salmonellosis as death. This could not possibly be blamed on any one individual in this case. But, knowing the nature of salmonella, and poor husbandry being a known factor for the bacteria to manifest themselves, and the fact that Aurora came home with an RI after being in your care for about 10 months, sorta leans towards maybe it was your fault after all. But nothing conclusive has been set forth placing responsibility on any one party, so as per our agreement

Originally Posted by crotalusadamanteus
Well, maybe we are starting to come to some sort of a resolution to this deal. Yes, I will help out. BUT.........and here comes the good part.........If I am to play the mediator role, it will be played by MY rules.

1. If I am to take possession of the ball pythons in question, all corespondance involving the ball pythons will take place here at fauna, in the eyes of the public. No exceptions.

2. Me acquiring these ball pythons does not warrant an immediate shipment of said animals to Matt. I will wait for the necropsy report just as I stated. This also is non negotiable.

3. If the necropsy results do not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the snake had some long term ailment that may have caused it's premature death, than I ship them to Matt. I mean by long term ailment, some disease laying dormant, some possible abnormalities in the snakes internal workings from birth. (We all know this has been known to happen with albinos.) You get the picture.

4. If the necropsy does prove beyond a doubt that the snake had some other underlying long term problem, like mentioned above, I will ship back to Luis.

5. If the results cannot pinpoint the exact cause of death, than this is concidered a reasonable doubt, and Matt will receive his reptiles ASAP.


Now, both of you need to publicly agree to this, and by so doing, it is in My hands, and I do not want to hear from either of you how I done you wrong because the outcome did not go YOUR way.

Agreed?


Rick

I AGREE 100%

I like the idea of having a professional Vet look at the Results of the Necropsy!!!

Luis Taracena
520 466 9836

PS: I have a shipping Box and my $50. bucks too!!!

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Damn finger, I hate when it does that.

Anyway, as per our agreement, I believe it is time to go ahead and ship Matts balls to him, and end this fiasco FINALLY. It has been too long already, with too many delays, starting with the shipping.

Matt, I'oll call you and we'll make the arrangments.

To the nasty gram-ers, (no names mentioned, I dont feel the need) Seems a few of you disagree with how I saw fit to handle this. Don't pick Me next time. It's a simple cure.

For those who supported Me, Thank You.


Rick

 

[HerpHobbiest]

How 'bout that necropsy report Luis? You said 7-10 "business days", it is now day 11. And to be frank, I am getting tired of holding Matt's Balls.

Richard, The papers were on the mail Wendsday. They were not here today so maybe tomorrow... Then I will Fax Them to James L. Jarchow, D.V.M.

Sonora Animal Hospital
401 West Simmons Road
Tucson, AZ 85705
Tel: (520) 888-8988

I do not know how much time he may need to file his report.

Richard, you volunteer and agree to be the mediatior in this deal, now you are going to have to hang on to Matt's Balls!!!

Like if the Salmonella could have been in the snake prior to shipping???

Like if shipping could have stress the snake enough to cause that Samonella to become systemic infection???

Like if could the frozen thaw Rats I feed the snake could have been infected in a large enough dosis to kill the snake in a few days???

Like if the snake was kept under normal conditions could a Salmonella infection develop to kill a snake in 6 weeks???

There is a few others.

If Matt has questions he wants answers he can post them here

See, The way I see it, is that I have maintain a collection of Boas for several years.... I raised my Pastel Boa 100% Het Albino and a sister het Albino since 2001. They are healthy and at least the pastel female may be gravid right now.... I purchased my Salmon Hypo from Jeremy Stone back in 2002, and he still alive no diarrhea.... I got a pair of Salmon Hypos from Brian Leubking in 2002, and they are now proven breeders they alive and doing well.... My Anaconda was born in 2002 and I got her as a baby and she still alive eating well and pops normal.... I have 2 Male Albinos Boas I purchased from Rich Ihle in 2003, and they have not die.... I have 2 female Anery Boas possible Het Snow and 2 Normal Females poss Het Snow that were bred and born here, they are healthy as can be.... My female Guyana Bcc is been problem free since 2004... and my 2004 pair of Bolivian Bca are doing excellent.... My 2005 Ghost Boas, all my 2005 Hypos 100% Het Sunglows and my 2005 Hypos poss Het Sharp Sunglows are growing well and no signs of illness....

The adult female proven breeder Albino Boa I sold to Griz, Bob Woodard is still Alive... The Salmon Hypo 100% Sunglow I sold to you Richard, is still Alive... So are the Salmon Hypos 100% Het Sunglows I sold to Bobby Sorok, Quintin Gates, The three I sold to Joe Lamb.... The Het Albino I sold to David L. still Alive.... So are the Het Albinos I sold to Laurie Shottler and William Rodrigez.... The adult Peruvian Red Tail I sold to John Nage is doing great... The Peruvian Long Tail Boas I sold to Persus Lepage, Jesse Burut are doing well...



..............Then I get an Albino male from Matt and dies in 6 weeks.

What Happen??? If I infected it with Salmonella here and I killed the Snake... How did I do it??? I want to know what happen....

There is absolutely no point on me purposely killing the snake. There is no motive, and there is no reasoning behind it!!!

A healthy snake is not just going to die without reason. We are just going to have to wait and see...

For now, good nite. Regards, Luis T.

 

[Junkyard]

Comments withheld, again.

 

[reptilebreeder]

Well, I think this is only my second post, so maybe I'll add another "IMO" posts. It appears that the report will either be inconclusive, or blame Salmonella. If that is the case, I think the fact that it was in someone Else's care for six weeks, that it (responsibility) is no longer on the seller. I'm not aware of any TOS that covers that long of a time period. Some may say they might honor longer terms under certain conditions (prior knowledge of problems?, Genetic? I'm not sure) even so, in this case I don't think it would apply. Especially if I remember correctly (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), there may have been improper quarantine procedures, and care problems (improper heat?). I believe those ball pythons are due to be shipped to their rightful owner, as should have been done at the very beginning, regardless of whatever excuses (no money?), in the first place.

 

[kmurphy]

3. If the necropsy results do not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the snake had some long term ailment that may have caused it's premature death, than I ship them to Matt. I mean by long term ailment, some disease laying dormant, some possible abnormalities in the snakes internal workings from birth. (We all know this has been known to happen with albinos.) You get the picture.

Luis, I assume by high-lighting the above section of the agreement between, you, Rick and Matt, you're trying to make a case for the salmonella to be a dormant disease. Salmonella occurs in many collections without causing problems.
It only becomes a problem when the snake is stressed because of poor husbandry or sickness. I don't think you would win that battle since the snake was with you for so long.
I agree with John the results will be inconclusive and the balls should go to Matt.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

Rick your terms of agreement were accepted by Luis and Matt, And the time has now lapsed and now the next stage should go into effect.Matt should get the Balls...And congratulations again Rick you must be a proud PAPA But back to the subject at hand,While Salmanila could be the cause of death I don't think that it came from Matt end,I believe that it was an unfortunate accident, Let me explain; I don't know if Luis feeds live or frozen thawed. But lets go with the later FT. I believe what happened here was Luis thawed a rat and the Boa didn't eat and Luis being low on funds decided to refreeze the rat and try again another day. now like any meat that is thawed and left at room temp, bacteria forms and by refreezing it it lays dormant and thawing it again well you get the gist. And if this was the case Luis wouldn't admit to it.he'd be embarrassed, as with anyone else who may of had this happen.Luis for what ever this is worth let it go, let Matt have his Balls, Aurora gave birth, Rick is going to hold up his end. So IMO theres nothing left to gain from this other then you showing the report you were going to fax to some one else for clarification. People here will translate it for you.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

Spell check don't work for the word Salomonila = Salmonella

 

[kmurphy]

Aurora gave birth

Did I miss something?